Mercenary system feedback requested

[nox]

So Mexxico did a really nice job of broadening the options for economic play.  You can now (or will soon) be able to see what the opportunities are to send caravans if your party trade skill is higher, you can now dispatch caravans independently.  I wager he's got some other tricks up his sleeve as well.

I'm more of a killing and destruction kind of guy, so I am focused on gameplay elements that involve warfare, mercenary work, banditry and so on.

One thing that overlaps for us though is the pay_day function that presents the screen you get (or should be getting) at the end of the week. 

I play the game pretty much like anyone else, which is the only way to really sort out the issues that arise and one of the big ones right now as you know is that dead spot between when you have about 80 guys and you have a castle.  What I'm doing now is broadening the mercenary role (basically using the code I wrote for bandit king).

The idea is this -

Based on your reputation, experience, the length of time you'll commit and the strength of men you bring - the leader of a faction will offer you a retainer to become a mercenary under his banner.  The money is good - generally about 4 times the cost of your troop maintenance depending on your level and renown. 

When you accept the mercenary position, you carry the banner of your employer and hence your factions are adjusted to fit the employer's factions.

Along with the base pay, you get a combat bonus for damage you do to the enemy.  Raiding villages, destroying caravans, engaging the enemy, and participating in sieges will result in large bonuses.

The idea here is to give the pre-land owning player a role to play in which they become deeply involved in the conflict, and have income that maintains their troop costs - for grognards like me who mainly spend all their time afield at war.

Since I am working on this now, I want to open the floor for ideas so that they have a chance to get in before the next patch cycle. 

So, feedback?  Ideas?

 

[Arquebus]

This sounds very good, only way to make an impact in the 80 size company(party)lull now is to support  Kristina of Sweden.

 

[robichet]

Hi, it's seem very cool to me !

 

[robichet]

*it seems, sry for double post 

 

[Wheem]

Sounds good to me, and I'm glad to see the mercenary contract feature getting some attention, but my "dead spot" actually happens at a much lower party size - the 40'ish to 65'ish range. When my max party size is around that, it seems that I can't really take on most of the enemy commanders alone, and I'm often not called to campaign with the main army. It can also be difficult to fight bandits and deserters when my party size is in that range, since most of the groups are much smaller and out-run me if I keep my numbers maxed out.

I suppose one way to counteract this might be to have mercenary-specific quests available. Maybe things like raiding a target village, killing off a caravan or two, or tagging along with a specific commander who goes hunting for enemy armies and/or raiding their villages. The player can follow friendly forces without being called on campaign right now, but often times they can seem fairly aimless; besieging a settlement for a little while and then going back home, or just patrolling for a bit before relaxing in the nearest city or castle. Having a quest "force" the friendly commander to go on an offensive, even if it was just to raid a village while you stand by for added protection against opposing armies, would give a more clear reason to support friendlies while not on an all-out campaign.

Of course, it may also help if the player was guaranteed to be called to all campaigns while under a mercenary contract (and, as a side note, the contract should be done on a monthly basis in my opinion). In my current game I signed on as a mercenary with the Polish Commonwealth (until my renown was high enough to officially join), and was only called to a campaign once. If I remember correctly, it was canceled before I even arrived due to the marshal position changing hands. I felt kind of aimless for a while, since most of the opposing armies were roughly twice (or more) the size of mine and often composed of some fairly elite soldiers. I managed to beat a few of the smaller armies, and joined in on a few in-progress battles, and this way gained enough renown and levels (for Charisma/Leadership) to get my army size up to 81. While I'm reluctant to attack castles and cities on my own with this number of men, I can generally handle myself OK in field battles now.

On that note, would it be a good idea to spawn player-like mercenary armies for the various factions? Forces which are smaller than the armies of the enemy commanders, behave similarly to the Scout/Forager patrols (along with perhaps raiding a village here and there?), and lead by a generic "mercenary commander." That would give players an opponent to go 1-on-1 with when they're too strong for most bandits but too weak to fight the faction armies. 'Course we wouldn't want to overdo it there, maybe limit each faction to 1 or 2 of the mercenary armies at a time, and limit their respawn times so that they're not too overwhelming for the player and/or AI armies.

 

[lamerstein]

Very nice ideas nox.
Love the ones about combat payments and faction banners.

I also like the idea of AI merc parties. For the time when you are too big to chase bandits and too small to fight lords.

But my biggest problem with mercenary life is not being able to store troops.
There was idea for a player build camps.....thats cool n nice but what happens when enemy lord raids your camp ? Thats a opportunity for a nice risk/reward situation.

My idea is when you sign for a merc contract with a faction to be able to store troops in the faction capital. May be not very much - limit of 50 and maybe you have to pay for accomodations ?

Or maybe both - player camp for more troops stored but risk a enemy raid or store them in the capital - less troops but safer.

 

[Evelyn]

I think I would enjoy this; as well as increased ammounts/increased replenish rates of the mercenaries you can hire from the mercenary camps. Furthermore, some increased customization, I.E. Warband multiplayer equipment selection GUI, Compare and Contrast stats and appearance. The reason i request that the mercenaries get increased is because the current system of recruiting from your commader... Sucks. Like, 5 days for 5 men. It's just... Uggh.

 

[original]

Based on your reputation, experience, the length of time you'll commit and the strength of men you bring - the leader of a faction will offer you a retainer to become a mercenary under his banner.  The money is good - generally about 4 times the cost of your troop maintenance depending on your level and renown. 

When you accept the mercenary position, you carry the banner of your employer and hence your factions are adjusted to fit the employer's factions.

Along with the base pay, you get a combat bonus for damage you do to the enemy.  Raiding villages, destroying caravans, engaging the enemy, and participating in sieges will result in large bonuses.

The idea here is to give the pre-land owning player a role to play in which they become deeply involved in the conflict, and have income that maintains their troop costs - for grognards like me who mainly spend all their time afield at war.

Since I am working on this now, I want to open the floor for ideas so that they have a chance to get in before the next patch cycle. 

So, feedback?  Ideas?

I think base pay + commission sounds good. You get commision for doing the things you mentioned like helping in sieges, helping in land battles, razing villages, etc.

But I'm not sure about combat bonus. It doesn't make sense that you will have combat bonuses as a mercenary, then you lose those combat bonuses once you become a member of the faction.

Mercenary perks
How about "renown" bonuses for mercenaries?

Because in my new game, I find the grind to the amount required to join a faction (100-200) a bit slow. Right now I'm just doing mayor quests to get 2-3 renown per completed quest. The only other way to get renown is by killing bandits, but it requires that I reduce my party size which I don't feel like doing. But I think this is quite fair, because there is no risk in this way of getting renown.

Becoming a mercenary means you are at war with your faction's enemies. Because this is more risky, you should rightfully have certain "perks" to compensate. Giving renown bonuses to the mercenary isn't unreasonable.

Full member perks
If you give mercenaries some bonuses, you need to sweeten the deal to encourage people to become full members. Otherwise people will be content with just being mercenaries and enjoy the renown and income perks.

The possibility of having lands should be a good enough incentive to join a Faction to replace the income perk of mercenaries.

The problem of not being able to store your troops before you get your first town/castle has been mentioned. I think make it so that you can only store troops if you are a full member, either through lands or through your new future implementation camps, your owned village, limited storage in faction castles/towns, etc.

Don't give it to the mercenary. This will encourage people to stay as mercenary just to have enough renown to become a full member, then make the upgrade.

 

[wannyboy]

letting them pay you 4 times as much as your troop wages goes a little too far in my opinion.
I would say they pay your troop wages for you, give you base pay of 200 and bonus for the damage you do. But then the villages should also gain you more money since otherwise, you would rather lose money when becomming lord than gain money. I don't like having requirements for becomming a merc, if you can fight and are willing to join them, they should gladly accept you. Maybe putting you through a little test like raiding a caravan but no renown/reputation requirements. Troopsize however could be requirement since it's useless to hire solo merc.

 

[Temuzu]

Would it be possible for the player to get a discount for the mercenaries of the specific nation he serves? For example if he serves the Swedes he would get European Mercs cheaper. "I am Mercenary Captain Temuzu, and this is my favourite Mercenary Camp in East Europe."
Also, if you hire troops from other merc camps, the morale of the party would drop.

 

[ZapperDude]

Nice idea, but as somebody already said the 4 times your upkeep pay is way too much. What about it being dependent on a persuasion score? The basic if you don't persuade would be half your upkeep (changing if you gain/lose troops of course) and if you fail it can lower to 0% of your upkeep (you still will get money for doing attacking enemy/raiding etc) or up to the 400% of your upkeep if you manage to persuade them very well. I really think we should get more options for persuading as it is a very useless skill now.

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But I'm not sure about combat bonus. It doesn't make sense that you will have combat bonuses as a mercenary, then you lose those combat bonuses once you become a member of the faction.
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I don't think he meant a combat bonus as in you become stronger/more health/more armour but that you get a bonus in gold (payment) for doing combat with the enemy.

 

[original]

Nice idea, but as somebody already said the 4 times your upkeep pay is way too much. What about it being dependent on a persuasion score? The basic if you don't persuade would be half your upkeep (changing if you gain/lose troops of course) and if you fail it can lower to 0% of your upkeep (you still will get money for doing attacking enemy/raiding etc) or up to the 400% of your upkeep if you manage to persuade them very well. I really think we should get more options for persuading as it is a very useless skill now.

snip

snip
But I'm not sure about combat bonus. It doesn't make sense that you will have combat bonuses as a mercenary, then you lose those combat bonuses once you become a member of the faction.
snip

I don't think he meant a combat bonus as in you become stronger/more health/more armour but that you get a bonus in gold (payment) for doing combat with the enemy.

Oh then those bonuses are fine.

Though the weekly salary for being a mercenary should somehow be lower than the income from your first village. Otherwise, why upgrade to a full member when you can get more money as a mercenary?

They should buff villages. The first village you get should have more perks. I proposed that you can build an armory in a village to garrison a maximum of 50 troops.
So even if you're not getting more income as a full member of a faction, you are reducing your troop wages by 50% due to having a place to garrison. Overall you still get more net income.

The idea of using persuasion skill to negotiate a better salary is also a nice idea.

 

[Auldman]

I suppose one way to counteract this might be to have mercenary-specific quests available.

This is a very good idea and one I brought up in another thread. Glad to see someone else propose this.

Of course, it may also help if the player was guaranteed to be called to all campaigns while under a mercenary contract (and, as a side note, the contract should be done on a monthly basis in my opinion).

Agree very much with this. I've had similar experiences with being called up as a merc but the campaign is abandoned and I lose food and morale while cooling my heels waiting on the lords to decide something...anything.

On that note, would it be a good idea to spawn player-like mercenary armies for the various factions?

Another idea I brought up in another thread so I heartily second this suggestion!

Nox, I think you are approaching mercs the right way and Wheem here has some very good ideas that would really improve mercs and merc play.

 

[wannyboy]

Nice idea, but as somebody already said the 4 times your upkeep pay is way too much. What about it being dependent on a persuasion score? The basic if you don't persuade would be half your upkeep (changing if you gain/lose troops of course) and if you fail it can lower to 0% of your upkeep (you still will get money for doing attacking enemy/raiding etc) or up to the 400% of your upkeep if you manage to persuade them very well. I really think we should get more options for persuading as it is a very useless skill now.

snip

snip
But I'm not sure about combat bonus. It doesn't make sense that you will have combat bonuses as a mercenary, then you lose those combat bonuses once you become a member of the faction.
snip

I don't think he meant a combat bonus as in you become stronger/more health/more armour but that you get a bonus in gold (payment) for doing combat with the enemy.

Oh then those bonuses are fine.

Though the weekly salary for being a mercenary should somehow be lower than the income from your first village. Otherwise, why upgrade to a full member when you can get more money as a mercenary?

They should buff villages. The first village you get should have more perks. I proposed that you can build an armory in a village to garrison a maximum of 50 troops.
So even if you're not getting more income as a full member of a faction, you are reducing your troop wages by 50% due to having a place to garrison. Overall you still get more net income.

The idea of using persuasion skill to negotiate a better salary is also a nice idea.

I don't realy like to let it depend on persuasion. They should just say, this is your salary, accpet it or don't. Persuasion will also become much more usefull when nox introduces warband features like having your own kingdom. Honestly in warband persuasion was actually OP:
-You didn't have to worry about which companions you choose, you just persuade them to stay
-You could win a battle without a single blow and get a lord on top of that by persuading him to join you.
-You can convince the marshal to follow your advice
-You could convince lords to vote for you (at least i think so)

isn't this already enough?

 

[whatwhatwhat]

Why aren't prisoners worth more? That alone would make going mostly battle oriented early game much more palatable. a club costs 200$ but a slave/prisoner is only worth 12$? What?

 

[ZapperDude]

Epic quote snip

I don't realy like to let it depend on persuasion. They should just say, this is your salary, accpet it or don't. Persuasion will also become much more usefull when nox introduces warband features like having your own kingdom. Honestly in warband persuasion was actually OP:
-You didn't have to worry about which companions you choose, you just persuade them to stay
-You could win a battle without a single blow and get a lord on top of that by persuading him to join you.
-You can convince the marshal to follow your advice
-You could convince lords to vote for you (at least i think so)

isn't this already enough?

As I said, they give you a salary and say "this is what we will pay you" but I want us to be able to also persuade them to increase it (and if we fail they decrease it because you suck so bad, kinda the same as with the repay debt thing).

And wow, you could do all of those things with persuade? All I got when people left was a simple goodbye. No option to persuade them. And I also thought making people follow you/give them hint of what to do was all absed on your relationship with them. Huh, I'm gonna make a persuasion heavy guy next time.

 

[wannyboy]

Not sure about letting them follow but i think it helps. And persuading companions is also realy usefull

 

[nox]

Why aren't prisoners worth more? That alone would make going mostly battle oriented early game much more palatable. a club costs 200$ but a slave/prisoner is only worth 12$? What?

If I'm not mistaken that was a M&B bug that got carried over.

 

[yehrom]

Mercenary specific quest system would be the Key of such project.


About what has been said :
- It is normal that mercs party dont match lords one in number, as making flee most of bandits group.
- Dont having the possibily to store men is also a part of mercenary life in my mind. But having a better rate of mercs recruitment (to compensate), that make sense, isnt it ?
- Renow bonus for being a merc dont have any sense. It is a wrong way to try to balance game mechanics not fully polished, but it will only break them at the end. Working on mechanic to have more opportunities to "work as merc", here is the way.
You are not obliged to "grind", folks. Just take your time and play the game ?!!

New suggestion :
As you said Nox, the mercs heart is in the warfare. Quest like suggested can be done, sure (one that I never seen is "kill some deserters (faction specific) band as example to dissuade other soldiers to do so" ^^).
But considering the AI campaign behavior, I dont have great hope on the result by this only way.

A really "mercs" feature could be to use them on their field, so... on The field !
By quest taking place in battle :
- flank their infantery
- run on their marksmen
- assume this role : 1st infantery liner / LineBreaker / last line guard / marksmen cover

But such feature requier AI battle following some tactics scheme before the fight.
We know that pre-deployment is possible, and I suspect battle map triggers being more advanced that we can imagine as user to collect the quest result

 

[wannyboy]

maybe when fighting alongside your employer, you become a regular merc so your men won't listen to you but to the lord and you see flag where you are supposed to stand (you can choose to become marksman, cavalry or infantry). If you don't follow these directions they will become mad