Melee cavalry is underpowered at the moment (Suggestions updated)

[Dr-Shinobi]

This.

Nope.... most men who spears me at full speed one shot me if they land it right, the spears also has the ability to stop any charging horse for the plucking so idk what this is about. Same goes for my Cav unit against them. think people needs to open their eyes a little bit more. AI being a bit hard to hit their targets at times, thats a fact for sure that needs to be adjusted slightly but i wouldnt want aimbootting crazy bots out there either that hits like trucks just touching tips because its realistic...

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

Nope.... most men who spears me at full speed one shot me if they land it right so idk what this is about. Same goes for my Cav unit against them

I'm getting a very different experience from you then. That, or you are charging a very loose line of ten odd cavalry men against a mob or spears.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

I'm getting a very different experience from you then. That, or you are charging a very loose line of ten odd cavalry men against a mob or spears.

Wouldnt be that stupid ^^ But yeah seems were playing different games for some reason. Cranked it up to highest diff ? without mods that affects armors and such ?

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

Wouldnt be that stupid ^^ But yeah seems were playing different games for some reason. Cranked it up to highest diff ? without mods that affects armors and such ?

I have no mods, and there's not a lot of difficulty cranking in custom games (or the enhanced battle mod). But besides that, the experiences I have even in vanilla seem to match. And I do play on realistic.

Even then, you still have the problem of cavalry being too weak so its back to square one. Seriously, watching Banner Knights struggle against a few looters is so embarrassing.

 

[Thelior]

I have to disagree with you that cavalry is merely for mobility. There are many documented historical events around the world that showed cavalry charges can singlehandedly turn the tide or being the decisive factor. Think about this, a historical warhorse is about 900+lbs, an average grown man is much smaller than what we are now, at most weighting 150-160lbs (It is documented in WW2, an average dutchman is standing at 167cm, compared to them being the tallest of all men at 183cm). My point is that a warhorse is 5-6 times the weight of an average soldier, thus a shield wall would stand no chance against a cavalry charge.

The only advantages for infantry over cavalry are cheap, numbers, and carrying pikes forming a spear wall. Typical footmen spears would stand no chance against cavalry lances as they are at least 2-3 meters long. However, I think by buffing the cavalry, their cost to recruit and upkeep should be raised multiple times to be more realistic.

You have to differentiate a bit here. If a cavalry charge is successful depends not only on the armor of the cavalry but also on the training, experience and morale of the enemy and of course the knight and horse itself.

A regular horse would under no circumstances charge into a solid obstacle. (and a lot of men holding pointy sticks would be considered an obstacle for a horse)

Warhorses would be trained to charge even when their instinct would prevent them from doing so, but only a fool would risk a frontal charge against barricaded enemies or seasoned spear men. Even if you manage to break the ranks you would suffer heavy losses. On the other hand if you would direct such a charge at a regiment of levies, the chances would be good that they would scatter and flee before the cavalry even reaches the line. But realistically no one would risk that and try to flank them instead, which would also result in breaking the morale.

The role of cavalry was to protect the own flanks from enemy cavalry and if the moment is right advance into enemy flanks, weak spots or unprotected ranged troops. But even this can go horribly wrong as the France cavalry demonstrated at Agincourt. Which does not only have to do with the training and equipment of the English longbowmen, but also because the tricked them to charge into solid spikes and just had to finish off the fallen and helpless knights.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

I have no mods, and there's not a lot of difficulty cranking in custom games (or the enhanced battle mod). But besides that, the experiences I have even in vanilla seem to match. And I do play on realistic.

Even then, you still have the problem of cavalry being too weak so its back to square one. Seriously, watching Banner Knights struggle against a few looters is so embarrassing.

Strange then....But weak ?...Ive been rocking solid with my past cav only unit playthrus and they had made my plenty of money only managing them so must count for something right Sure sometimes they aim like drunkards but that comes with the Vladian experience since all they do is fart and drink wine all evenings at the camp

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

Strange then....But weak ?...Ive been rocking solid with my past cav only unit playthrus and they had made my plenty of money only managing them so must count for something right Sure sometimes they aim like drunkards but that comes with the Vladian experience since all they do is fart and drink wine all evenings at the camp

Compared to banding some archers together, they are absolutely weak, yes. Even infantry will do a better job in everything besides chasing people. You can have the same number of foot units and they'll cost you less money.

Don't care how you justify sh*t either, but Vlandians being terrible shock cavalry is stupid, considering that's meant to be their strength.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

Compared to banding some archers together, they are absolutely weak, yes. Even infantry will do a better job in everything besides chasing people. You can have the same number of foot units and they'll cost you less money.

Don't care how you justify sh*t either, but Vlandians being terrible shock cavalry is stupid, considering that's meant to be their strength.

Use shield wall with your cav unit if you now gonna charge head on in open ground against alot of archers..Would suggest however to have terrain advantage cover for hit and run tactics if able though. But terrible chock cav ?! now im offended since they most certainly have not! ^^

 

[Thelior]

Strange then....But weak ?...ive been rocking solid with my past cav units and they had made my plenty of money only managing them so must count for something right Sure sometimes they aim like drunkards but that comes with the Vladian experience

My cavalry doesn't perform very good either. I just use them when counter charging enemy cavalry (so that they don't focus on me alone) or chasing down fleeing enemies.

What is your setting for the AI difficulty? I'm playing on realistic, but usually don't crank up the combat AI because I'm just playing a few casual hours to test new stuff and then wait for the next patch.

Could it be that a low AI difficulty setting nerfs cavalry so much, that it becomes useless?

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

My cavalry doesn't perform very good either. I just use them when counter charging enemy cavalry (so that they don't focus on me alone) or chasing down fleeing enemies.

What is your setting for the AI difficulty? I'm playing on realistic, but usually don't crank up the combat AI because I'm just playing a few casual hours to test new stuff and then wait for the next patch.

Could it be that a low AI difficulty setting nerfs cavalry so much, that it becomes useless?

Im playing on Realistic/Challenge mode. But tactics with your cavs are also a thing you should really keep in mind as well as refine. From what i hear so far people are using them wrong when they are discussing tactics using them. But youre right their main obj is first to keep clear of the enemy cav trying to flank your infantry or disturbing your archers...Then keep em at your flanks untill you see an good moment when their inf is busy with yours...Then you order them....This is just basic strat ofc and theres more to it depending on situations, but it works....
Sure i also do mistakes from time to time, but at least i know when i do em as i realized i charged em in at the wrong moment and timing or sloppy managed em at the flanks or in to narrow passes screwing up their momentum.... as i have then to pay the iron prize. Also they dont die that easy after the battle, especially if you have an medic at hand.

One main thing i got in mind using cavs as an mindset tip is that they should be used as an surprise unit at all times never be risking unnecessary engagements especially standing still when they are mounted ofc. Secondary is to annoy the lines and archers carefully untill the infantry gets in to good pos they are seeking...If you must, hide them behind cover... to then order em later to charge when enemies are busy.

In other words they are not tanks but soldiers on living horses

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

Use shield wall with your cav unit if you now gonna charge head on in open ground against alot of archers..Would suggest however to have terrain advantage cover for hit and run tactics if able though. But terrible chock cav ?! now im offended since they most certainly have not! ^^

I meant relying on archers as opposed to relying on cavalry, but sure. That's tactical common sense stuff I already do, but sure.

Could it be that a low AI difficulty setting nerfs cavalry so much, that it becomes useless?

Nah, it doesn't seem to really help.

 

[Thelior]

Im playing on Realistic/Challenge mode. But tactics with your cavs are also a thing you should really keep in mind. From what i hear so far people are using them wrong when they are discussing tactics using them. Sure i do mistakes to but at least i know when i do em as i realized i charged em in at the wrong moment and timing or sloppy managed em at the flanks as well as i have to pay the iron prize. Also they dont die that easy after especially if you have an medic at hand.

When I'm using them offensive I guide them to a point where they can attack the flanks or back of the enemy. The first charge isn't usually the problem, although they miss a lot and if the enemy stands too close I often lose some of them. But when they turn around for a second charge they always manage to get stuck alone in a bunch of enemies, which doesn't end well.

If they would regroup before charging again or if you micromanage their attacks to do so or even lead them personally they could be maybe more efficient, but I'd rather let them sit as reserve and enjoy the battle myself.

Micromanaging is too tedious (for me) and every time I lead the cavalry myself to guide them through the lines every ranged enemy seems to focus on me, which doesn't end well either. Just not worth the hassle. Which I find really sad, because I love playing with cavalry.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

When I'm using them offensive I guide them to a point where they can attack the flanks or back of the enemy. The first charge isn't usually the problem, although they miss a lot and if the enemy stands too close I often lose some of them. But when they turn around for a second charge they always manage to get stuck alone in a bunch of enemies, which doesn't end well.

If they would regroup before charging again or if you micromanage their attacks to do so or even lead them personally they could be maybe more efficient, but I'd rather let them sit as reserve and enjoy the battle myself.

Micromanaging is too tedious (for me) and every time I lead the cavalry myself to guide them through the lines every ranged enemy seems to focus on me, which doesn't end well either. Just not worth the hassle. Which I find really sad, because I love playing with cavalry.

Yes that is a problem for sure since AI dont know how to use the cavs right and charge them in to bad situations (heck still soloing em towards their lines far from yours) along with their bad aiming at times making the ground troops getting upper hand doing sudden 180 turns spearing them to death. But ive seen AI command doing it right to now and then having cavs saving us on the ground many times even if they have been annoying blocking us at the wrong moments to when there was pleanty of targets around ^^ hate those moments when youre in the zone and a stupid horseman just ride in to the front of you when youre trying to hit someone....

However one must have in mind that its easy to think that this is just an action game because of the fps warfare, when its equally as much also is an strategy game even on the battlefield. In ex an Total War game if you charged some specialized cav units in to the wrong tree you get penalized to....
However the best part is with this game.... if you ex dont like commanding in bigger scales much i would recommend doing hero play thru or managing smaller forces being specialized. But thats just an recommendation as we all should enjoy what we want to do Also this is war and people will die so dont kling to much on your troops as long as they made you money, fulfilling your goals and experience i have as an set of mind

 

[CrazyElf]

And so should swords, axes and spears. But then you would have no way to kill heavily armored targets, would you?

People forget that armor and combat in general are abstract in Bannerlord. When you hit armored target with the arrow and do damage, it does not mean that you have pierced through steel plate. It simply represents % of shoots that hit unprotected, or lightly protected areas on the target.

So armor definitely does not need any buffs against arrows, it's effective plenty enough.

Yes you would. Blunt weapons.

They do higher damage against armored targets, but most blunt weapons do less damage overall making them less effective against large numbers of lower tier enemies.

Likewise, polearms would also be very dangerous. Weapons like halberds were made in mind with fighting plate armored cavalry.

Armor was very strong in real life, but not invulnerable. We don't have plate armor in this game (yet?), but it conferred a huge advantage in combat. If it didn't, nobody would use it.

this guy is not battanian archer

A Battanian Archer would have a slightly higher weight of bow, but that is about it. The game does take that into account in the velocity of the arrows (and the weight as well).

Damage in Bannerlord is a function of the weight of the arrow and the speed of the arrow right now (and technically cut/pierce/blunt damage).

A lamellar maybe too much for the bow, lets take a look at a 140lbs warbow vs gambeson.

Gambeson is a lower end armor than top end lamellar and scale armor in Bannerlord. I do not expect gambeson to withstand a warbow. By armor, I'm referring to pieces like the Imperial Scale Armor.

I do not expect chain mail either to withstand a direct hit from a long bow, although a lower weight bow can be stopped by chainmail.

Take a look at the gambeson vs 140lbs warbow . I'm sure noble knights of the time wore more than 1 layer of armor. Other than the gaps in between protection, they wouldn't be many chances to kill a knight by shooting at their protected area.

Keep in mind that long bows and other such weapons (it's not entirely modelled in the game) were more area weapons. They weren't sniper weapons - getting a hit would rely on very high volume of fire and a lucky hit.

 

[guiskj]

I find astounding how these conversations keep derailing into medieval warfare tactical use of cavalry but fail to even ask the question of wether any of that is applicable to Bannerlord...

The answer is a resounding no. Battles in Bannerlord are nowhere close to military medieval engagements.

I get that is fun to discuss these topics, but let us not loose sight that we could instead be helping TW come up with actual gameplay uses for the cavalry units (which currently have none, or so few to not be worth its upgrade path)

My proposition on how cavalry units could work within Bannerlord gameplay are:

1. Allow us to target specific enemy formations so we can tell our cavalry formations to target archers or enemy cav
2. Dial to 11 the morale loss caused by cavalry charges without the need of them dealing damage. This is somewhat in the game already but requires cav units to actually deliver damage, which they are actually pretty bad at doing. It would be awesome to see archers quit and run at the sight of charging cav.
3. Flip side of 2 is that there needs to be a way to rally routing units to help counter cav morale damage
4. Bonus point, allow cav formation to target enemy respawning areas to help delay them from joining the main fight.

What are your gameplay suggestions to make Bannerlord cavalry relevant?

 

[CrazyElf]

I find astounding how these conversations keep derailing into medieval warfare tactical use of cavalry but fail to even ask the question of wether any of that is applicable to Bannerlord...

The answer is a resounding no. Battles in Bannerlord are nowhere close to military medieval engagements.

....

What are your gameplay suggestions to make Bannerlord cavalry relevant?

The developers want to claim some degree of realism in this game, so I think it is quite relevant.


As far as your question at the end, considering the original thread is about the power of melee cavalry - improve the accuracy of the couch lance. That would be a huge change, since couch lances can pretty much 1-hit-kill a target if they hit.

I would also like to see high end (but only high end armor) more resistant to arrows. It would be countered, as discussed above, by blunt weapons (maces and if they add them, war hammers) and polearms.

 

[Apocal]

What are your gameplay suggestions to make Bannerlord cavalry relevant?

Most of what you said, crank morale effects higher, reduce arrow/bolt damage, increase the effectiveness of armor across the board, etc.

 

[Dabos37]

Uhmmmmm, I am really impressed reading some comments here. Do you really find cavalry weak now? I could provide some videos if needed but 50 Banner Knights are now able to kill balanced armies of 150-200 men. What do you expect for cavalry to be considered good enough?

Since 1.5.3 I am able now to play with cavalry armies and they are pretty effective and feels strong. I doubt that Banner Knights have issues against looters, when even units like Aserai Mameluke regular are able to deal with them pretty handy.

 

[guiskj]

Uhmmmmm, I am really impressed reading some comments here. Do you really find cavalry weak now? I could provide some videos if needed but 50 Banner Knights are now able to kill balanced armies of 150-200 men. What do you expect for cavalry to be considered good enough?

Since 1.5.3 I am able now to play with cavalry armies and they are pretty effective and feels strong. I doubt that Banner Knights have issues against looters, when even units like Aserai Mameluke regular are able to deal with them pretty handy.

At the risk of being rude, using literally the best cav unit in the game to prove that said unit class is worth anything is in itself a pretty poor argument.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

At the risk of being rude, using literally the best cav unit in the game to prove that said unit class is worth anything is in itself a pretty poor argument.

well im using reg T4 light cav now as well without problems. Sure they have not much armor hense they are called light but they fulfill my needs and can take some hits for sure as well as fighting. Sure they need some help with aiming at times but it shouldnt be substantial since im also missing and doing bad stuff as an human. Last thing i want is aimbotting super bots but rather an environment that feels natural

My proposition on how cavalry units could work within Bannerlord gameplay are:

1. Allow us to target specific enemy formations so we can tell our cavalry formations to target archers or enemy cav
2. Dial to 11 the morale loss caused by cavalry charges without the need of them dealing damage. This is somewhat in the game already but requires cav units to actually deliver damage, which they are actually pretty bad at doing. It would be awesome to see archers quit and run at the sight of charging cav.
3. Flip side of 2 is that there needs to be a way to rally routing units to help counter cav morale damage
4. Bonus point, allow cav formation to target enemy respawning areas to help delay them from joining the main fight.

Some good ideas to btw +1