Making sandbox games can be an ungrateful job

[Gambles]

@Gambles Seriously, don't bother. This thread is also not about Arma. Let him play the part of Arma Whistleblower role in somewhere else

I've set him to ignore, he can post his topic and theories in arma 3 or bohemia general on their forum and we can all continue the lunacy there.

Sorry for derailing the thread for anyone who was in the middle of a conversation.

 

[froggyluv]

Right the dev's of arma 3 didn't work on it post launch. Right... right..

You're full of **** i'll see you on the the forums over there then, I look forward to your "Arma 4 has been in development since 2013" post and all the evidence you provide for that statement and the dev's response. Should be great you damn damn liar. And people have been assuming Arma 4's launch since 2018, them launching next year isn't the same as them developing the game since 2013, they're already 7 years in to Arma 3 I imagine there will be some announcement soon. Don't forget to make the post.

Already conceded 3 posts up i have no way of proving when they started arma 4 - again...my whole point was against the other poster who said Arma4 will not come out as it was never Officially Revealed. Look up kid -its there. And come on over -first page of General is about the perceived lead of hints towards Arm4 . Your welcome to take that bet with me as well -within 1 year they will announce it -lets go $500.

You sure get triggered -lotta *******'n ***** in your posts. Get some anger management or keep yelling "damn damn liars!!" :p

Im froggyluv over there as well -easy to find me and my work. Whats your name again?

Edit: Hahahahaha. Ignore. Thats what i thought. Riled himself up so much with anger, tells me to meet him somewhere and then disappears. Typical.

 

[Bloc]

Ironic, considering you and your buddy use ad hominems to fuel your arguments and don't use facts to back up your statements.

Using ad hominems to fuel my arguments and not backing them up? What? Show me where I did that?
If you claim something you have to use proof to build your argument. Saying "I bet 500$" doesn't make it legit. If you cannot back it up, then it's the end of discussion. But if someone says "cReaTe yOuR oWn fOrum" as a response to that without knowing the fundamentals of discussion then there is no point of discussing anything with that person since he is clearly not thinking straight.

 

[froggyluv]

Not taking the bait - he had his chance to discuss utilizing an ancient pc tabloid as evidence and then likes to act like he established legal precedent. A joke out of his element.

Anyhoos back to Bannerlord bashing

 

[Memoefe]

First of all, let's start with this:
Are those "whining" people insulting anyone? Are they cursing? Are they violating any forum rules? No. Did they pay for this game? Do they have all right to say/express however they feel in the forum? Yes. So they can say whatever they like.
When you claim people are "whining" it is simply triggering toxic behaviour in the forum. Also, people don't have to provide constructive criticism. They don't have to feel okay with this EA mess. They don't have to test the game and feel "oh okay" with every bug as if they are QA. You don't like what people say? Scroll down and continue.

Some people don't even know what EA is and then when you show them they are wrong, they just ignore it. This is called being ignorant. I think that is called whining. But of course most of the complaint of player are not whining and they have right to complain.

Bannerlord took 8+ years of development. Eight years.

Why does it matter? Its their time to spend. If it was announced in 2017 wound it be different? Or if it took 15 year to develop this what would it chance? You might say It show how fast they finish the game. But end result would be the same. If I painted a picture in a year, and another person painted same picture in a week it would mean that man is better artist than me but it wouldn't mean my picture was worse. Taleworlds isn't most talented studio, but game might be still great.

Even Taleworlds is not defending themselves about this.

They don't have to. They don't need to prove themselves to anyone. Them not defending themselves isn't a lose. They make a product, if people like it they buy it, if they don't they don't buy it. I might put wisdom on their silence as you put defeat, but im not gonna make it because both is wrong. Their silence is just it, silence.

 

[Bloc]

Some people don't even know what EA is and then when you show them they are wrong, they just ignore it. This is called being ignorant. I think that is called whining. But of most of the complaint of player are not whining and they have right to complain.

There is a thick line between saying "Oh I think its because of EA, they will probably fix it" and "iTs EA 'duh". If you check the forums, you can also see some of the people tend to reply like in the second case. Also, the game being in EA doesn't necessarily take peoples right to complain. You can still say that "Bannerlord sucks, Warband was better" regardless of it's state. If that's how you feel, you can say it. This is really way of giving feedback. But lets say 800 people out of 1000 said the exact sentence. What would you think as a producer? You would feel like Warband has something that Bannerlord doesn't, right? Even that depthless sentence can be that's a step forward as you can see.

Why does it matter? Its their time to spend. If it was announced in 2017 wound it be different? Or if it took 15 year to develop this what would it chance? You might say It show how fast they finish the game. But end result would be the same. If I painted a picture in a year, and another person painted same picture in a week it would mean that man is better artist than me but it wouldn't mean my picture was worse. Taleworlds isn't most talented studio, but game might be still great.

I'm not sure how people in this forum started to have such a strange way of comparing things. How can you compare a product with an art? Bannerlord is a product. Like it or not. It's a digital game that is sold under AAA price tag. Of course, it does matter how many years they spent. If you come up with a half-finished product and fix your issues with the pace of a turtle, you are out of excuses. Within those 8 years, every single bits and pieces of current bugs and such are discussed in this forum many times by experienced players. People took their time and gave as much as feedback possible. Now seeing that these were all nothing is simply sad. And people started to question what the heck did they do in those 8 years. I'm not even going into the case where many things that they showcased are not in the current EA.

I might put wisdom on their silence as you put defeat, but im not gonna make it because both is wrong

While saying they are not defending themselves, I meant that they are not like those people who are throwing weird arguments like "Its ea", "Just sit and wait". They are not defending themselves because they are not a small garage indie game team with 2 developers in it. Taleworlds is a medium sized company. Also nobody cares if they defend themselves in their own forum against their users. People care about action and Taleworlds + other professional teams know that. They know that something is going down and they are now awakened and trying to fix that.

 

[Revverie]

So you spent 50+ hours, haven't experienced more than half of the content the game has to offer, and it's their problem?

Did you just read one sentence of what I've said and wrote that? Because that is definetly not what I meant, your criticism of our point of view is quite nonsensical since me myself trend to defend Taleworlds and I still put my hopes and dreams unto them and this game, but surprisingly I'm not a blindfolded person and I can see the problems this game has as much as everyone can, what you're arguing is that we shouldnt criticize and praise them for some reason like that is going to make the game better. If you were producing something and, even if it was bad, people came to you and sucked your **** non stop would that help you make your product better? No, you would get stuck under that first impression complacient people are giving you, instead if someone criticized your product (in development) you could notice the problems within it and improve upon it.
As I said before, people who come to this forum to insult the developers tire me out as much as you that doesnt mean the game is complete and full of fun experiences, it means we as an audience should develop a more critical way of seeing this game and to know what should we point out that we think is going wrong and how to say it. You seem to be quite based and closed to your opinions to take such a blatant statement from what I've said I reccomend you pay more attention and read better my friend otherwise this discussion will go nowhere

 

[Memoefe]

There is a thick line between saying "Oh I think its because of EA, they will probably fix it" and "iTs EA 'duh". If you check the forums, you can also see some of the people tend to reply like in the second case. Also, the game being in EA doesn't necessarily take peoples right to complain. You can still say that "Bannerlord sucks, Warband was better" regardless of it's state. If that's how you feel, you can say it. This is really way of giving feedback. But lets say 800 people out of 1000 said the exact sentence. What would you think as a producer? You would feel like Warband has something that Bannerlord doesn't, right? Even that depthless sentence can be that's a step forward as you can see.

True, I just pointed out there are 'whiners' but there are also those who hide behind EA and ignore all the flaw too, they are ignorant too.

I'm not sure how people in this forum started to have such a strange way of comparing things. How can you compare a product with an art? Bannerlord is a product. Like it or not. It's a digital game that is sold under AAA price tag. Of course, it does matter how many years they spent. If you come up with a half-finished product and fix your issues with the pace of a turtle, you are out of excuses. Within those 8 years, every single bits and pieces of current bugs and such are discussed in this forum many times by experienced players. People took their time and gave as much as feedback possible. Now seeing that these were all nothing is simply sad. And people started to question what the heck did they do in those 8 years. I'm not even going into the case where many things that they showcased are not in the current EA.

People always compare, it didn't got invented in 30 march 2020. Games are form of art too, you can buy painting that doesn't make them not art, but that is not the point. If you think game is half finished and at pace of a turtle then don't buy it or devs ignore suggestion and whole EA is flop. If you buy it, that means you either like the game or hopeful that it will be finished in time. However in the end it will be either good or bad, whether its done in 1 day or in a decade.

Like what if they didn't touch the game until it 2016. What changes? The game is however it is today. Its not like they took peoples money back in 2012 and bailed out for 8 years. It was their money, their development. Whatever damage it caused, it caused to them not the players.

While saying they are not defending themselves, I meant that they are not like those people who are throwing weird arguments like "Its ea", "Just sit and wait". They are not defending themselves because they are not a small garage indie game team with 2 developers in it. Taleworlds is a medium sized company. Also nobody cares if they defend themselves in their own forum against their users. People care about action and Taleworlds + other professional teams know that. They know that something is going down and they are now awakened and trying to fix that.

Of course Im fully with criticism. You can and as a EA tester should tell all the flaws. Im just saying, as you say too, their policy of not saying a word isn't negative nor positive its just policy.

 

[momcilo94]

Did you just read one sentence of what I've said and wrote that? Because that is definetly not what I meant, your criticism of our point of view is quite nonsensical since me myself trend to defend Taleworlds and I still put my hopes and dreams unto them and this game, but surprisingly I'm not a blindfolded person and I can see the problems this game has as much as everyone can, what you're arguing is that we shouldnt criticize and praise them for some reason like that is going to make the game better. If you were producing something and, even if it was bad, people came to you and sucked your **** non stop would that help you make your product better? No, you would get stuck under that first impression complacient people are giving you, instead if someone criticized your product (in development) you could notice the problems within it and improve upon it.
As I said before, people who come to this forum to insult the developers tire me out as much as you that doesnt mean the game is complete and full of fun experiences, it means we as an audience should develop a more critical way of seeing this game and to know what should we point out that we think is going wrong and how to say it. You seem to be quite based and closed to your opinions to take such a blatant statement from what I've said I reccomend you pay more attention and read better my friend otherwise this discussion will go nowhere

You said most of your gameplay was running from a tournament to a tournament so you can collect gold to sustain yourself, to me that's not all the game has to offer. I'm not against criticism btw, I'm all for constructive criticism, this whole topic was aimed at people who use insults or act disrespectful when criticizing.

Using ad hominems to fuel my arguments and not backing them up? What? Show me where I did that?

Any time you insult a person or bash upon an argument by attacking a person instead of the argument is ad hominem. I used a few of 'em too in this thread, my fault I got triggered a bit so I apologize if I insulted anyone. I just don't understand such hostility in the responses when my main point isn't that bad, which is that ppl should stop being dickheads when they provide criticism and they should show some respect. I'm not against constructive well written criticism.

Edit: To point out what I mean, here's some examples:

Example (Good criticism): "Hello TW, I believe that the game could benefit with the addition of more armor variety and to balance out archers in multiplayer and also while you're at it would be cool if we got more gear variety and this and that stat gets tweaked and this and that feature gets added or removed in sp".

Example (Bad criticism): "You idiots stole my money! This game has been in development for 8 years! Oh my god what are you guys even doing, look at these bugs!!!!"

 

[Bloc]

Any time you insult a person or bash upon an argument by attacking a person instead of the argument is ad hominem.

I know what ad hominem is. I'm asking where I did that since you claimed that I and my "buddy" was doing that? If you are still referring to that case, I'm refusing to waste my time to discuss with a person that doesn't read what I say and just come up with a response like "create your own forum". That's not ad hominem. That's just me not wasting my time anymore.
I also do get your point and want to people to be soft on Taleworlds because you appreciate the product. But you are also missing the point. As you can already see in this thread, such threads are like a breeding point for troll fans. And it also shows close-mindedness of the TW community regarding to opinions. That's not Mount&Blade. It never was. Without community and criticism, we wouldn't have Bannerlord. There is no need to create a thread for making a point. That's why I explained to you that this thread is pointless.
And regarding to your example, bad criticism is still criticism and helpful for game developers as I explained hundreds of times.
Would it be better to have good criticism from everyone? Yes. But that's not realistic or not possible. So let people outrage if they feel like it. As long as they are within the forum rules, that's fine. No need to do flaming.

 

[Revverie]

That is exactly what we've been doing lately, at lest some of us, giving good criticism, but when you say this game is this and that you break your argument because you argue this game is good, which is not, is average and not in is fullest potential, its quite far from its full potential and it has 0 to no content in relation to warband. I said that was the only thing to do in peace times, which is true unless you consider fun being a trader (which is no more than buying goods here and taking them there, there is no risk since looters and bandits dont represent a threat to anyone) read better dude

 

[Gerta]

And regarding to your example, bad criticism is still criticism and helpful for game developers as I explained hundreds of times.
Would it be better to have good criticism from everyone? Yes. But that's not realistic or not possible. So let people outrage if they feel like it. As long as they are within the forum rules, that's fine. No need to do flaming.

I agree that bad criticism is still valuable criticism. Certainly, bad criticism is better than no feedback at all.
Also, I try to give respectful criticism myself. But when I see others give bad criticism, I don't feel the need to mock them, I just ignore the post and get on with it. Its not my job to tell people how they want to give their criticism. That's TW's job. If TW wants to ban bad criticism then they can do so, they have set the forum rules and they can change them if they wanted to. The moderators of the forums have been banning people and locking posts, but they have not locked people's posts or banned people for saying TW sucks, or I want my money refunded, or I was lied to. That suggests that these posts are fair game.At least here, in the general discussion portion of the forums.

I think people forget that this is the general discussion section of the forums, not the feedback and suggestions section. If someone went to the feedback and suggestions forums and started posting things like TW sucks, or I was lied to, then that probably is off limits and disruptive. But here, I think its fair game.

 

[Ettenrocal]

What he wanted to say is that if you wait 8 mores years you will have somehting good! Just be patient and don't whine (you're not kids! but better be a 10 year old kid if you want to play the real next M&B fully polished)! So yeah this is a pointless thread of people whining other people are whining to use the same term they use when people just complain. Also we are killing the planet with those threads, everything we write is saved on servers...

Come make scenes in Warband: there's nothing better to wait an update than making AI mesh for hours!!!

 

[Rungsted93]

I agree with @Bloc the criticism of Bannerlord is very much valid, sure there's some people who's unreasonable toxic and flaming, but there's atleast as many people defending TW for no good reason either.


Bannerlord feels more like a spiritual succesor created by fans, than a succesful 60+ employee studio spending 8 years making a sequel. There's so many cut corners and missed opportunities for Bannerlord, and I believe that's what frustrates people. The game itself is okay-ish but it could've been so much more, and I'm afraid TW won't add much more content and features.

 

[Apocal]

I never heard that before and I think it's quite clear that Chivalry looks way different than Warband. And it wouldn't make sense for a company to announce their game for that.
As far as I know, they announced the game because they were working on it and Paradox was pushing them for release. Paradox also had War of Roses coming up that timeframe - which failed miserably- and they didn't want that to come into way.

Yeah, I might have mixed up Chivalry with WotR, but that was an explanation given in an old (2016 or so?) interview. And I agree it doesn't make sense to announce a game for that reason but... TW isn't the best at marketing. It was, what, over six months after the announcement trailer to see any actual screenshots from the game? And they weren't even telling people about new features for over a year.

At any rate, whatever they were doing then is pretty irrelevant, because they then had to re-do the engine a few years later.

 

[mserhatbalik]

Thousands of people showed their gratitude by paying for their game while not requesting any refunds, even if they were upset with the state of the development. Instead they chose to provide feedback, some of them were constructive and some were destructive. It's not for me to judge.

But it seems like the patching progress is slowed down. I don't know exactly what this means. Maybe less quantity with more quality, or maybe TW stopped caring when the sales start going down? I am not their CFO, but I think they hit the big bucks within their first months. Right now they seem to be taking their time and whining of a small minority won't make any difference.

 

[Younes]

Are some people really arguing that bannerlord isn't a follow up to warband, despite the lore, continent and factions all directly linked to warband?

 

[Rungsted93]

Are some people really arguing that bannerlord isn't a follow up to warband, despite the lore, continent and factions all directly linked to warband?

If it was regarding my post, then I might have expressed myself wrong. Obviously the world itself it a follow up. I was talking more in terms of features, content etc.

 

[momcilo94]

I know what ad hominem is. I'm asking where I did that since you claimed that I and my "buddy" was doing that? If you are still referring to that case, I'm refusing to waste my time to discuss with a person that doesn't read what I say and just come up with a response like "create your own forum". That's not ad hominem. That's just me not wasting my time anymore.
I also do get your point and want to people to be soft on Taleworlds because you appreciate the product. But you are also missing the point. As you can already see in this thread, such threads are like a breeding point for troll fans. And it also shows close-mindedness of the TW community regarding to opinions. That's not Mount&Blade. It never was. Without community and criticism, we wouldn't have Bannerlord. There is no need to create a thread for making a point. That's why I explained to you that this thread is pointless.
And regarding to your example, bad criticism is still criticism and helpful for game developers as I explained hundreds of times.
Would it be better to have good criticism from everyone? Yes. But that's not realistic or not possible. So let people outrage if they feel like it. As long as they are within the forum rules, that's fine. No need to do flaming.

I never said "create your own forum" so stop putting words in my mouth. Also if you know what ad hominem is then stop using it

There is no need to create a thread for making a point. That's why I explained to you that this thread is pointless.

not to mention it is very hypocritical as you are supportive of trolling fans but flame on my right to criticize them. If you defend their right to make rage posts that offer criticism why are you so keen on telling me I shouldn't express my opinion on them?

And regarding to your example, bad criticism is still criticism and helpful for game developers

In most cases it's not, it's just a rage vent for people to let out their frustrations and they offer nothing constructive that the developers can build on.

 

[froggyluv]

not to mention it is very hypocritical as you are supportive of trolling fans but flame on my right to criticize them. If you defend their right to make rage posts that offer criticism why are you so keen on telling me I shouldn't express my opinion on them?

Because it doesnt support the narrative they wish to soley exist. Very much how you'll hear people who defend Nazi-like hate speech under the U.S 1st amendment all the time -but they rarely if ever cross the aisle and make the same blatant stand for the people demonstrating against them. They lack the self awareness and moral fortitude to be consistent in their argument.