Lvling is bad... why?

[SystemFalx]

Hi:

First time posting here, being playing M&B since 3 years aprox, and visiting this forums about 2'5.

First of all, congrats for a great mod, this is my favorite warband mod for now.

Besides the bugs alredy posted in the bug topic there is something I dislike, I've alredy read the Strategy guide by xenoargh, not to figth in castles and try not to lvl up, but all my games end in the same, with my character in lvl 30 aprox and the enemies being very hard to beat, in the field It still can be done, but only because I'm using top equipment, but in tournaments is imposible, an archer can kill me with 2 (Sometimes even 1) dagger hits..

So in the end the role of my character is recruit, train, bad luck/bad battle, lost army, and start again.

I miss lvling up, become powerfull and fighting elite troops, beacuse I'm strong enough, but now is imposible, I'm only strong at the begening, with the archer's bow, the armor of the seargent or the stats of the barbarian, but as time goes, I became less and less powerfull.

Also I can't reset my char (I think is a bug), but if I could I would not raise skills like "Iron Skin" or "Horse Archery", the most important are skills related with more money, make stuff and troops cheaper to get and cheaper to mantain 

That would be me my only complain, well, and the armies, I feel the armies are a little disposable, train, lost, rectruit, train, lost, recruit...

But I want to say again congrats for the mod and thanks for your work 

 

[Steffenximus]

You don't need high stats to win in tournaments, only cunning and skill. Just avoid groups of enemies, and try not to fight alone in the first rounds. Learn how to effectively block and strike, also when charging an archer, just run in zig-zag if you don't have a shield.

By lvl 30, you should have a high skill in INT and CHA, no matter what class you play. I am currently lvl 46, and even if every lord has around 1k elite troops, I find the game very cool and certainly not so hard.

A word of advice, it takes some time to adjust to this unique mod.

 

[SystemFalx]

You don't need high stats to win in tournaments, only cunning and skill. Just avoid groups of enemies, and try not to fight alone in the first rounds. Learn how to effectively block and strike, also when charging an archer, just run in zig-zag if you don't have a shield.

By lvl 30, you should have a high skill in INT and CHA, no matter what class you play. I am currently lvl 46, and even if every lord has around 1k elite troops, I find the game very cool and certainly not so hard.

A word of advice, it takes some time to adjust to this unique mod.

I think I have not explained myself correctly:

My problem isn't that I can't win tournaments, the problem is that an archer with a dagger should not kill a char with 6-7 Iron Skin in 1 or 2 blows, and that happened to me more than once.

I consider myself not bad at this game, I think I know how to block and strike since 2'9 years  , and, even If my "technique" is to move left or right 1 sec before an archer shoots me It works, I agree with you, tournaments are easy if you know the game, thats not my point.

And yes, I have a high INT, but thats part of the "problem" (It may not be a problem, it may be a freature of the mod, just my opinion), the problem is to feel that I waste the points that goes to anything but INT in medium-high levels. I feel that lvling up should be something desirable, that make you stronger and versatile, but well, as you said, this mod is unique, I just think that lvling up should not be a problem, It should not make the game harder, when you face the same old looters or low troops you must feel the difference between being lvl 3 and lvl 17 not only because you have a ton of elite troops behind you.

The one I'm using know is my 7º character, maybe trying another combination or something...

Anyways, thx for the answer.

 

[nilloc93]

i must agree with System, its rather annoying that the game gets harder just cause you partake in combat, you should be REWARDED for becoming more powerful, not penalized. the problem is that the best way to win the game is to just sit back and watch the fight, but that is boring as hell

 

[Tumetsu]

[quote author=SysemFalx]Besides the bugs alredy posted in the bug topic there is something I dislike, I've alredy read the Strategy guide by xenoargh, not to figth in castles and try not to lvl up, but all my games end in the same, with my character in lvl 30 aprox and the enemies being very hard to beat, in the field It still can be done, but only because I'm using top equipment, but in tournaments is imposible, an archer can kill me with 2 (Sometimes even 1) dagger hits..[/quote]I think Iron Skins is useless skill and waste of valuable stat points (at least at the moment, there is very big changes coming) Basically Iron skins only give you +2 hp and those 14 extra hit points you have don't really make any difference.
In B&S every weapon does a lot more damage than in Native. If someone stabs you with dagger in RL you don't just laugh at him and punch back. I'm quite sure that was the idea behind weapon damages.
[quote author=SystemFalx]And yes, I have a high INT, but thats part of the "problem" (It may not be a problem, it may be a freature of the mod, just my opinion), the problem is to feel that I waste the points that goes to anything but INT in medium-high levels. I feel that lvling up should be something desirable, that make you stronger and versatile, but well, as you said, this mod is unique, I just think that lvling up should not be a problem, It should not make the game harder, when you face the same old looters or low troops you must feel the difference between being lvl 3 and lvl 17 not only because you have a ton of elite troops behind you.
[/quote]
If you put your points to INT isn't it logical that they doesn't make you tougher in battle? Strength and agility are combat skills. Armor is the most important thing for warrior so you need 18 str. Difference between lvl 3 and lvl 17 characters is around 200 body armor. Agility gives access to important skills like riding, horse archery, athletics (and looting )

 

[nilloc93]

If someone stabs you with dagger in RL you don't just laugh at him and punch back. I'm quite sure that was the idea behind weapon damages.

explain then why armies back then did not just run around with daggers?

 

[Tumetsu]

Maybe because other guys had swords and armor...

Point was that even a small dagger does significant damage and can kill you with one hit.

 

[nilloc93]

Maybe because other guys had swords and armor...

that becomes irrelevant when you become high level

 

[Tumetsu]

I don't see your point. There isn't levels in real life.

In fact I was answering to System with that dagger comment

 

[Steffenximus]

Back in medieval age, ALL warriors had daggers as secondary weapons, including knights and templars. The reason why they used swords instead is obvious, but just as Tumetsu said, a single dagger hit can very well be deadly, whether you die instantly being impaled in your heart or neck, or you die shortly after from massive blood loss.

However in this game you can't parry with a dagger, so just parry/block his hit and kill him, or if you're smart just hit him from a distance, he can't parry. What is so damn hard about that ?

As you advance, you need to gather as much elite troops as possible, and Leadership helps towards that. You need to use tactics to defeat a more numerous army, but it's far from impossible.

 

[nilloc93]

Temetsu, there are no levels in real life, but in real life people do not become more powerful just cause you personally killed them

 

[Tumetsu]

Tumetsu, there are no levels in real life, but in real life people do not become more powerful just cause you personally killed them

I still have no idea what you are trying to say.

SystemFalx didn't like that someone can kill him with one dagger strike, I pointed out that in RL single hit can be fatal and then you start drawing odd conclusions.

 

[Steffenximus]

Temetsu, there are no levels in real life, but in real life people do not become more powerful just cause you personally killed them

The game tries to adjust the army sizes (difficulty) with the passing of time (a.k.a. lvling up). This means you have to lvl up very well, spending each attribute and skill wisely, otherwise you'll have a hard time.

 

[imgran]

Also it doesn't matter how sexy you are, wading into a battle of hundreds and plowing personally headfirst into the thick of the tightest melee of that battle is a good way to wind up on the ground bleeding from various places.

 

[SystemFalx]

I think this is getting a bit dispers:

About the comments of the dagger, it was just an example, yes, in RL a guy with a 4 cm blade is potentially lethal, but I didn't want this to become a discussion about the mod realism.

The dagger guy was an example, I'm no saying that daggers are overpowered or that I can't fight an enemy with a dagger  .

To Steffenximus, your getting me wrong I think, I still can defeat an army that outnumbers me 2 to 1 or even sometimes 3 to 1, I can kill enemies in battle and I can kill people with daggers going arround  , the dagger example happened to me 3 times, 2 of them I was riding a horse (tournament), the horse get killed and when I tried to get up the archer stabs me ONE time and I get killed, full hp, thats annoying, and the other one I connect a hit with a 2 handed sword, the guy just laughted at me and stabbed lighting-speed 2 times, and my character didn't have 3 STR if you're gonna ask.

But those are just examples, I'm not in the head of the charge and get killed by a lance, I'm not fighting 20 elite swordmen with a 2-handed. I (Humbly) think that my problem is not that I dont know how to play xD.

My problem (I repeat, if that's a problem) is that some skills are useless, that lvling up is a punish and that it's not "choosing wisesly" stats and skills, its NOT choosing useless stats or skills unless you wanna mess all the char.

 

[nilloc93]

The game tries to adjust the army sizes (difficulty) with the passing of time (a.k.a. lvling up). This means you have to lvl up very well, spending each attribute and skill wisely, otherwise you'll have a hard time.

S understand the concept of it but there is a flaw, in that when you wisely assign your attributes you will slowly become a weakling in battle, unable to take part as a "hero" of the battle, you become a commander nothing more. Sitting on a hill in your full plate watching and commanding a battle while killing the occasional horsemen that comes your way is BORING, no 2 ways about it.

If i may point out the age of blackpowder mod for vanilla (not a coder so i don't know if this applies) was able to make NPC partys bigger based on the day, not your level.

 

[Steffenximus]

S understand the concept of it but there is a flaw, in that when you wisely assign your attributes you will slowly become a weakling in battle, unable to take part as a "hero" of the battle, you become a commander nothing more. Sitting on a hill in your full plate watching and commanding a battle while killing the occasional horsemen that comes your way is BORING, no 2 ways about it.

If i may point out the age of blackpowder mod for vanilla (not a coder so i don't know if this applies) was able to make NPC partys bigger based on the day, not your level.

Have you even bothered to look at my videos ? Do I look like I sit on a hill and watch the battle ? Learn from others if you can't find yourself a good tactic.

 

[Tumetsu]

S understand the concept of it but there is a flaw, in that when you wisely assign your attributes you will slowly become a weakling in battle, unable to take part as a "hero" of the battle, you become a commander nothing more. Sitting on a hill in your full plate watching and commanding a battle while killing the occasional horsemen that comes your way is BORING, no 2 ways about it.

I don't see how you can lose the ability to be effective warrior if you once have got stats and equipment to be one. Fully armored 25 lvl guy with 18 agi and str is as effective in the field as 35 lvl with same battle stats.
What I do is to upgrade those battle related stats early and then start building charisma in order to be commander. At this point enemy armies begin to grow but I grow my own army as well and can fight all the time.

If you don't want to put so many points to str and agi it's very possible to be effective with 12 strength and medium armor. Just don't rush to melee so much, it can still be done, and instead favor ranged weapons.

 

[nilloc93]

S understand the concept of it but there is a flaw, in that when you wisely assign your attributes you will slowly become a weakling in battle, unable to take part as a "hero" of the battle, you become a commander nothing more. Sitting on a hill in your full plate watching and commanding a battle while killing the occasional horsemen that comes your way is BORING, no 2 ways about it.

If i may point out the age of blackpowder mod for vanilla (not a coder so i don't know if this applies) was able to make NPC partys bigger based on the day, not your level.

Have you even bothered to look at my videos ? Do I look like I sit on a hill and watch the battle ? Learn from others if you can't find yourself a good tactic.

the "sit on a hill thing" is an exaggeration
i watched all your vids and found them very useful BUT, i did note that your always more or less part of your unit, and the only reason you kill alot is cause your a human and thus smarter than the AI, your char is not some grand hero like a level 50 on any other mod is.

 

[Steffenximus]

Yeah, I pointed that difference awhile ago on the forums. We are humans, and compared to the AI, we're like gods. And there is no exageration about sitting on a hill, some players like to play that way, though if you get yourself involved you are guaranteed to greatly reduce your losses.