Leveling is cringe-worthy

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Reiksmarshal

Sergeant Knight at Arms
I have played multiple 500+ day characters and it is such a grind. I usually start to hit a wall at level 13-14 at which point I have to grind other unrelated skills which is immersion breaking. Attibute points are so few and far between, most players will probably only get 3 during a play through!

I really hope leveling and perks get more attention soon as players will lose interest. I understand this is early access, but it would be a great opportunity to start working on balancing perks and the leveling system while you still have large test base. Thanks for the great game and all your hard work!
 
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For me the problem is not that it gets harder to level up a skill with time but that each level up makes it harder to level up every skills. It's stupid.
 
I have played multiple 500+ day characters and it is such a grid. I usually start to hit a wall at level 13-14 at which point I have to grind other unrelated skills which is immersion breaking. Attibute points are so few and far between, most players will probably only get 3 during a play through!

I really hope leveling and perks get more attention soon as players will lose interest. I understand this is early access, but it would be a great opportunity to start working on balancing perks and the leveling system while you still have large test base. Thanks for the great game and all your hard work!
You are correct, but there is a massive amount of community members who are quite masochist and enjoy really bad gameplay mechanics. Obviously, the devs should aim to the majority of the herd (making leveling more rewarding, and quicker), but (_|_) it's a long shot... If you take time to look at some of the most popular Warband mods (SOME not ALL), the difficulty increase in the game is baffling, for veterans it enhances the core gameplay loop, but it ruins for more casual players or people that are having the first contact with the game... And we're not talking about Dark Souls difficulty, we're talking about unrewarding Chinese WoW Gold Farming level of grind, I always hate that, and always tweak those mods to a more smooth experience when needed (some don't, like Pendor, others suck without it). At any rate, I do hope the devs see some sense on this, I'd even volunteer to work for them on this Challenge Reward curve, I have the skills necessary to make something really good out of it, but I can't move to Turkey hahaha
 
Why not just add a slider in the char creation dificulty choose? XP gain Easy, Mooderate, Hard. Just like with other game mechanics
 
Its dumb the way it is now. The core idea of skills improving on use, versus skillpoint assignment, that's fine. I'm cool with that. Its the death-spiral of progression just making it harder to progress, especially since the way the game is paced you typically develop combat skills first then shift into more leadership/charm traits when you actually have some reason to politic with people.

The mods that fix this fall squarely in the category of "Mods needed to make EA enjoyable".
 
For me the problem is not that it gets harder to level up a skill with time but that each level up makes it harder to level up every skills. It's stupid.

This, I don't know what they were thinking when they added this "feature", it just feels awful. If it was in an effort to curb the player growing in power too rapidly, then it worked way too well. I would love if they removed it.

This and the whole bandit hideouts debacle really put a dark stain on Bannerlord for me right now, but even with that I'm still having fun.
 
I think that the feature where all skills get harder to level kind of forces you to be specialized, which is pretty cool in my opinion. I've never liked games that allow me to be a god at literally everything after a while. Warband was actually similar to this, with initial skill points coming in fast but slowing to a trickle after you got high enough level.

my major issue with how grindy levels are is that the game forces you to be fast paced, seeing as how much war everyone is at. It's not like warband where you could just mess around for hours and hours and jump in to global wars later, because by then a superpower is probably already growing and some factions might already be dead.
 
I think that the feature where all skills get harder to level kind of forces you to be specialized, which is pretty cool in my opinion. I've never liked games that allow me to be a god at literally everything after a while. Warband was actually similar to this, with initial skill points coming in fast but slowing to a trickle after you got high enough level.

I don't mind that but the problem is currently BL, outside of combat, doesn't really have specialization. Everyone needs leadership and charm, for example. Most of the specialization is fighting style specialization. Part of that is because the game underdelivers on meaningful roles. What do I mean by that?

Sure, you can be a trader, a bandit, a mercenary, but all the real content past early game is in being a vassal and/or starting your own kingdom. There's no content for being a bandit leader, or a mercenary company leader, or a trade/caravan empire mogul. So, everyone plays as a vassal/ruler noble, and vassal-ruler nobles need all the same non-combat skills.

What happens in BL is you can spend a little too long just focusing on developing your combat skills and whoops! You're gated from non-combat skills, but this wasn't a meaningful choice of specialization, because there isn't a meaningful content-laden path about just being a strong-man that's equal to the content of being a vassal. You can't be another lords "champion" instead, now you're just an underpowered lord with ****ty charm and leadership. Catch my drift?
 
I don't understand why they added that penalty to learning the higher level you are, it adds nothing, if you learn to be a one-handed swordsman, why would it be much harder to learn how to be two-handed swordsman later?
 
The core idea of skills improving on use, versus skillpoint assignment, that's fine. I'm cool with that.
You shouldn't be. It's really the wrong system for a game like this. It means every character will play the same for the first 2/3 of the game. Every character starts out bad at leadership and engineering, and it's basically impossible to level either until mid-late game. By that time the story of your character is already mostly written. Every character will have high steward, because it's almost impossible not to. Every character will have either high riding or athletics, for the same reason. Every character will have low-mid scouting and medicine, again because they just level up passively. There is almost no differentiation between characters, they will all be the same.

It promotes grind and degenerate gameplay, that weren't present in warband. Just look at what some people report doing:
1. Blocking ny companions hits in the tournament for 1 hour. Becouse it is only wat to improve his weapon skills and lvl up him
2. Hiring only bandits and revert them to the frkn nobles.
3. Leading army as i trader all the time to lvl up leadrship
4. Jumping from roof in the cities to damage myself and lvl up medicine
5. Giving any lord in my way 1 coin to lvl up charm.

And because of the attribute system, you are encouraged to grind levels in skills you don't use. It's just not a well designed system.

The two systems they tried to mash together (the elder scrolls grinder and warband point assignment) are fundamentally incompatible, they need to pick one and go all in.
I hope they go back to warband system because grinding sucks and having every character the same also sucks.
 
I think that the feature where all skills get harder to level kind of forces you to be specialized, which is pretty cool in my opinion. I've never liked games that allow me to be a god at literally everything after a while. Warband was actually similar to this, with initial skill points coming in fast but slowing to a trickle after you got high enough level.

my major issue with how grindy levels are is that the game forces you to be fast paced, seeing as how much war everyone is at. It's not like warband where you could just mess around for hours and hours and jump in to global wars later, because by then a superpower is probably already growing and some factions might already be dead.
Wait, you didn't like Skyrim?
 
My main personal problem with current leveling implementation is the presence of a hard-cap on skill gain. As others mention, it makes leveling beyond 14-16 (depending on character build) an utter chore that, contrary to the supposed intention of making one a specialist, requires minmaxing EVERY. SINGLE. SKILL.

I like the "improve through use" mechanics quite a lot (and prefer it to more abstract leveling systems). I like the focus system in Butterlord itself - it makes sense, and allows player influence over what your character is learning best.

What I utterly dislike is that, at some point (and often much sooner than later), you're ending up with no skill point gain whatsoever no matter how hard and long you engage in activities associated with that particular skill. That, to me, is completely in opposition to the whole "learn by doing" approach.

IMO, the skill and attribute system should both have recursive feedback. Instead of gaining attribute points "one per x levels," make it something also dependent on skill use. And not just skills associated with it as primary attribute (such as melee->vigor), but give all skills one or two "secondary" attribute connection that feeds partial skill XP gain back into that attribute's own progression toward next point.

Obviously this would require some forethought to ensure all attributes have meaningful skill feedback mechanism to them, but I think it would result in a much smoother feeling of player's progression. You do stuff. This stuff contributes toward associated skill based on your focus points and initial attribute allocation in character creation. The skill point gain is recursively applied toward associated attribute growth (and not just one, primary!), which means you are setting ground for improvement in another area.

Even if this is too difficult/time consuming to rework into the game, at least remove the bloody 0.0 skill gain hard cap. Even if it's 0.25xp gain multiplier, at least it still allows some horizontal progression, no matter how grindy.

Yeah, sure, "mods will fix it," but I'm not too keen on seeing the result of that approach in action at the game's ultimate release.
 
You shouldn't be. It's really the wrong system for a game like this. It means every character will play the same for the first 2/3 of the game. Every character starts out bad at leadership and engineering, and it's basically impossible to level either until mid-late game. By that time the story of your character is already mostly written. Every character will have high steward, because it's almost impossible not to. Every character will have either high riding or athletics, for the same reason. Every character will have low-mid scouting and medicine, again because they just level up passively. There is almost no differentiation between characters, they will all be the same.

I agree with you but think its not exclusively the leveling system at fault. Part of it is that in terms of content, there is only 1 content heavy way to play Bannerlord. Be a vassal, or found a kingdom, and paint the map your color. A skill system that differentiates on how you play only works if you can play the game differently. Now, in a game like M&B the framework for multiple playstyles is easily there - but almost always vassal/kingship is the only one with any meat to it.

That compounded with the fact that our starting choices aren't very sandboxy. We're always an inexperienced youth. Now, indulge me for a moment:
Imagine a Bannerlord where you could just play as a caravan mogul with the same content/satisfaction. Imagine you could start your character as a 50 year old man, well skilled in engineering, trade, and charm, but absolutely useless in combat. Imagine you could actually be enticed to join another lords party or a clan or kingdom because you generate money, or are useful army-support. In this hypothetical bannerlord then this type of skill-system, I think, would be fun.

However, when the game basically has one playstyle, and has very limited character creation (always young with a wide spread of low skills) it absolutely becomes exactly as you describe, the same for the first bit of the game with the same skills inevitably just leveling.

I think what many of us like about M&B is how the game organically creates a "story" based on our playthrough. I think the idea is to have a skill system that meshes with that, so our character organically becomes good at what they did in their "story." That idea currently fails in execution, I'd argue, for the reasons I gave but could work. Will the game ever flesh out enough to make that system work? I dunno, probably with mods maybe never vanilla. So would it be better to maybe just revert to the warband style? If we're unwilling to make the game world that makes the other system work, then yes.
 
Will the game ever flesh out enough to make that system work?
I seriously doubt this game will ever support alternative play styles. The meat of the game is leading armies and conquering territory. The other stuff is secondary. I don't think you'll ever be able to build a neutral trading empire with automated agents and defense patrols like you can in an x-universe game for instance, they have a much more developed economy sim and even some elements of citybuilders like ceasar and anno series.

Imagine a Bannerlord where you could just play as a caravan mogul with the same content/satisfaction. Imagine you could start your character as a 50 year old man, well skilled in engineering, trade, and charm, but absolutely useless in combat. Imagine you could actually be enticed to join another lords party or a clan or kingdom because you generate money, or are useful army-support. In this hypothetical bannerlord then this type of skill-system, I think, would be fun.
Well with a point-assignment system you could do this. Just put all your skill points into trade etc. You could do this in warband, if you put all your points into leadership you would suck at combat to begin with but you could lead a much bigger party. This is impossible with the current system and I do think it is a result of the system itself.
 
I don't mind that but the problem is currently BL, outside of combat, doesn't really have specialization. Everyone needs leadership and charm, for example. Most of the specialization is fighting style specialization. Part of that is because the game underdelivers on meaningful roles. What do I mean by that?

Yes I totally see your point here, Charm and Leadership are pretty much required. I mean if they pass that one stupid "law-speakers" thing in your kingdom, you hemorrhage influence daily just because you dont have high charm. I suppose since you are already slowed down just by requiring more and more skill points to gain levels and increase skill caps, you wouldn't necessarily need to increase time it takes to train those skills as well.

Maybe in the future there will be more options, that is my hope at least.
 
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