Is it OK that you can block 2m bardiche with a knife?

[Harmi]

It looks and feels stupid when there is someone with a knife fighting a guy who has a long spear or bardiche. And then in another hand, you cannot block with anything the great hammer. It also makes no sense. I think you should get damped damage if you try to block with a small weapon a heavy one. If you have for example 5kg weapon and you block it with a 500g weapon, you should get ~4500g worth damage. Whatever that means. If the weapons are almost at the same weight this, of course, doesn't happen. You should be able to block with that knife a light sword etc. without getting any damage.

I am not sure how great hammer works, but it seems that it does not reduce damage at all if you block it and that makes it be an annoying weapon. The only way to "fight" it is to jump around like a grasshopper in trying to avoid it. You can't even chamber it. 

I think there is a lot of balancing things in this game that should be done before releasing it. These kind of things are quite illogical and might push you away from the game.

 

[wormydowg]

Hold your horses,

few pointers....
Blocking physics requires more than weapon mass.
The game is not trying to mimic such behaviors.

 

[John_M]

Well first off, knives can't block anything in Warband iirc. They are tagged with 'can't be used to block' or something.

And there is already a feature in Warband that gives an edge to heavy weapons when hitting light weapons. If it's heavy enough the blocker is stunned, so they cannot immediately preform a counter attack. But on the second block they will not receive a stun, else they would just be stun locked. 

I don't see how you can advocate this damage system if you dislike the great hammer. Any user with a smaller weapon would just be beat down, ever if they are more skilled and block every attack.

 

[FBohler]

I wouldn't mind if there was some kind of multiplicator/damping involved in the block process, maybe taking into account angle, timing, skills and obviously the momentum of both weapons.

This way someone very, very good at it could block heavy blows with light swords, but if they got the timing wrong, some blunt damage would get through.

 

[Sarin]

Well first off, knives can't block anything in Warband iirc. They are tagged with 'can't be used to block' or something.

They can still chamber block...bots have been driving me crazy with that at times, especially when they used their own lance to chamber my couched lance charge.

 

[Rabies]

It was confirmed in a devblog a while ago that daggers can't block in Bannerlord. I know these things are subject to change, but it's reasonably safe to assume that it's still true?

Don't know about chambering, but I think they said they've changed the mechanics for that since Warband?

 

[578]

Daggers will be as useless as they were in warband, unless they cook a dodge instead of block mechanic or something to effectively avoid the hits of someone while staying in battle with them.

 

[Lord Engineer (Castor)]

It was confirmed in a devblog a while ago that daggers can't block in Bannerlord. I know these things are subject to change, but it's reasonably safe to assume that it's still true?

Don't know about chambering, but I think they said they've changed the mechanics for that since Warband?

Chambering is still a thing, along with kicking and feints. I mean why would Callum talk about it in a Dev blog post and another thread if they had removed it. I can't recall an official source saying they removed it.


It kind of makes sense when you think about it, the hypothetical bardiche is not in full swing yet and so the knife holds it back and uses its weight against it making it harder for the bardiche's wielder to swing. Force is what matters when dealing damage, and all that mass is useless if you can't accelerate it. Then again that's not really how it works in the game but close enough.

 

[Harmi]

It was confirmed in a devblog a while ago that daggers can't block in Bannerlord. I know these things are subject to change, but it's reasonably safe to assume that it's still true?

Don't know about chambering, but I think they said they've changed the mechanics for that since Warband?

Chambering is still a thing, along with kicking and feints. I mean why would Callum talk about it in a Dev blog post and another thread if they had removed it. I can't recall an official source saying they removed it.


It kind of makes sense when you think about it, the hypothetical bardiche is not in full swing yet and so the knife holds it back and uses its weight against it making it harder for the bardiche's wielder to swing. Force is what matters when dealing damage, and all that mass is useless if you can't accelerate it. Then again that's not really how it works in the game but close enough.

Okay, in some situations you should be able to block every weapon even with your bare hands. But that's also one of these "realism" things that will make the game look buggy. In Warband, at least the sword always looks of going with max speed.  Also, you can cause slash damage even without swinging the sword.  Just have a sword edge against the skin and then slide the edge.  So blocking a low-speed sword with hands would still make you bleed. Those naked dudes would die in seconds against that. You cannot block with your body anything, not even the lowest speed if you don't have any armor or thick clothes. Even a very dull sword would be fatal for them.

What comes to daggers. I think you could maybe by luck block once a sword if both are in correct angle, but the sword would anyways at the next swing slide off from the knife or a short sword blade and cause injury.

Now because Warband allows me to do so, I very often "block" with my body the attacks. Just go to the side of the attacker from where he is attacking and I don't get damaged if I am close enough of his sword. That is realistic if I have lots of armor, but lightly armored dude would die anyway in that situation.

 

[killer-blead]

If you think that's impressive. Try chambering a couched lance with your fists.

Martial arts right there.

 

[Harmi]

If you think that's impressive. Try chambering a couched lance with your fists.

Martial arts right there.

It's not impressive. I think it's broken or badly designed game mechanics. The realistic (and very easy) way to avoid lance is just to walk or jump aside.

 

[DtheHun]

I think that small chance of parrying/chambering still not enough to compensate the lack of extra damage that pointy daggers could do aganst armored opponents with joint thrusts, but that part is not simulated even from behind.

 

[hansolo223]

Daggers are quite sturdy weapons. I can see it parrying a bardiche at full force but I think your hand and arm may take some beating. Maybe also you might accidentally get cut from the bardiche without steel gauntlets. It's hard to say. Do you want to get a bardiche and dagger and test it out? I hope you realise thats a joke.

I think definitely should make it block something but maybe add your gauntlet type as an armour factor.

 

[nGabor]

Please take in consideration, that Mount and Blade is not trying to depict real melee fight, it is a very simplified system - which is not realistic but it is simple and easy to read and it is working. (Honestly I was hoping for some changes in this system). In a real fight you dont block, you try to deflect the attack, even with shields. With deflecting, you dont have to deal with the full force of the attack, but in some cases you can us it to your own advantage.

Take a look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GoQlvc_H3s

 

[Harmi]

Please take in consideration, that Mount and Blade is not trying to depict real melee fight, it is a very simplified system - which is not realistic but it is simple and easy to read and it is working. (Honestly I was hoping for some changes in this system). In a real fight you dont block, you try to deflect the attack, even with shields. With deflecting, you dont have to deal with the full force of the attack, but in some cases you can us it to your own advantage.

Take a look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GoQlvc_H3s

Oh yeah, I understand this. I actually don't care very much about realism. I just hope this would make the sword fighting look and feel little better. If you have some guy with a long bardiche attacking a guy with a dagger and then the dagger guy wins the fight by blocking multiple attacks from the bardiche. Who thinks the fight makes any sense? Realistic or fantasy sense? Even JRR Tolkien would be ashamed of that story.

 

[nGabor]

Oh, I was not directly responding to the bardiche vs knife problem. I just wanted to point out that m&b fight mechanics are simplified and abstract so take it with salt. On topic: I dont think knife will be able to block anything in bannerlord, as it was not able in warband. You can only chamber wich is quite a challenge compared to basic blocking. For me it is OK.

By the way I dont think bannerlord should be a full realism game, but the current attack/block system is a bit robotic and not too immersive/good looking for my taste (which of course I can live with) but that is an other topic...

 

[Harmi]

Oh, I was not directly responding to the bardiche vs knife problem. I just wanted to point out that m&b fight mechanics are simplified and abstract so take it with salt. On topic: I dont think knife will be able to block anything in bannerlord, as it was not able in warband. You can only chamber wich is quite a challenge compared to basic blocking. For me it is OK.

By the way I dont think bannerlord should be a full realism game, but the current attack/block system is a bit robotic and not too immersive/good looking for my taste (which of course I can live with) but that is an other topic...

That's true. However, I was speaking about knives but I actually mean some very small swords. For example some rapiers. I have no idea how that small bendy sword could be able to block a full strength bardiche or battle ax attack.

 

[killer-blead]

Hmm,

You know how shields have "resistance"  values right? What if weapons had these as well. And the higher the resistance value the more chance a weapon has to block an attack. Of course, this would mean the resistance would be sufficiently high to block all attacks for most weapons (based on the weapon damage to resistance ratio) but it could mean that you can place a low resistance with daggers and this would prevent them from blocking large weapons (which are normally high damage).

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

The blocks in warband are supposed to represent temporary parries. The animations just make it look like you're actually trying to stop the enemy weapon in its tracks, which is absurd. It also doesn't help that you can block infinitely many attacks coming from a single direction, so a guy holding his sword downwards is invincible to pikes.

I think you should be able to parry any weapon with any other weapon, but there should be a window of opportunity rather than a permanent blocking animation.

 

[Harmi]

The blocks in warband are supposed to represent temporary parries. The animations just make it look like you're actually trying to stop the enemy weapon in its tracks, which is absurd. It also doesn't help that you can block infinitely many attacks coming from a single direction, so a guy holding his sword downwards is invincible to pikes.

I think you should be able to parry any weapon with any other weapon, but there should be a window of opportunity rather than a permanent blocking animation.

I've slowly started thinking that the animations are the biggest problem in Mount and Blade. There is so many animation related problems that I can't even count them very fast.