Incest?

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calandale

Grandmaster Knight
http://books.google.com/books?id=OW1nuQxcIQgC&pg=PA104&lpg=PA104&dq=mhc+incest&source=web&ots=qnssqKAVKr&sig=vNKGsI1nJSIZ8aNj_lABLpZOmSw#PPA104,M1

http://www.dorak.info/mhc/mhcevol.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=FWnb2oFnS6IC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=mhc+incest&source=web&ots=9MCruCSaSP&sig=TmkhQY8YgU0N9tD-94-NfEiIUQA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_odor

http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19960301-000030.html

Seems we're likely to actually be
hardwired, to consider it 'icky'.

Someone should test this in highly inbred
families, and see if the same effect is there.  :laugh:
 
Oh, just an particular set of genes
which will inhibit breeding, if they
match.

I have access to a nice testbed,
with a suite of things to check -
covering overall diversity, as
well as viability of the population.

Just seems like an interesting thing
to hit it with.
 
calandale said:
Oh, just an particular set of genes
which will inhibit breeding, if they
match.

I have access to a nice testbed,
with a suite of things to check -
covering overall diversity, as
well as viability of the population.

Just seems like an interesting thing
to hit it with.

Yeah, that is cool.  I like those programs that basically prove evolution.  In your program, would incest be more likely to give mutations?
 
Yeah, that is cool.  I like those programs that basically prove evolution.  In your program, would incest be more likely to give mutations?
I was under the impression that incest just increases the likelihood of bringing about phenotypes that are sub-optimal as there's a higher likelihood of recessive genes being displayed than there would be in your average sample, resulting in Charles II of Spain.
 
Stonewall382 said:
Yeah, that is cool.  I like those programs that basically prove evolution.  In your program, would incest be more likely to give mutations?

I could include that. Don't see what it would
reflect though, tbh. If I use a dual chromosome
structure, and recessive traits, that would make
more sense. Still, probably don't want to do too
much - just obscures the main point that I'm
highlighting.
 
IIRC the bad thing about incest is rather than receiving two versions of each gene, the child only receives one.

There's pretty solid evidence that a lot of 'moral' codes are hardwired into us via evolution, even altruism.
 
Archonsod said:
IIRC the bad thing about incest is rather than receiving two versions of each gene, the child only receives one.
Mostly correct.

Basically, each person has 2 copies of each gene: one from mommy and one from daddy. A copy of a gene in a given cell can change due to mutation, but that is not very likely for one given gene (although a few certain mutations in a single cell will cause cancer).

A gene is basically a recipe for a protein. A mutation in a gene can be:
Silent - has no effect on protein
Can change a single amino acid - can have little effect if it is a not an important part of a protein and amino acid is changed to a similar one. Say, Alanine to Glycine. Or, it can disrupt function of a protein by changing an amino acid in an important region of a protein and/or changing an aminoacid to a very different one. Say, a non-polar one to a charged one. Or, it can introduce a stop codon, cutting off the rest of the protein sequence.
Or, it can be a frameshift mutation that totally ****s up the protein.

It is rare that a mutation will enhance effect of the protein. Most likely, the protein will become useless piece of junk. In some cases, genes are inactivated in most cells (telomerase gene for example) and a mutation will not be in gene itself, but will activate the gene (in case of telomerase gene, it is a requirement for cancer).

So, here is the fact that we have 2 copies of each gene help: if one copy is inactive, the other copy will come to rescue. In most cases, one copy of gene will produce sufficient amount of protein. Therefore, phenotype will be the same as for a person with both copies intact.

Now, since we have a large number of genes, chances are a large number of them has 1 copy "damaged". Since normal people have sex with people who are not closely related to us (although all of us are relatives a large number of generations back), chances are our mate will have different genes having a copy "damaged".

A kid gets one copy of gene from mother and one copy from father. Which copy ends up there can be assumed to be random (some genes go together, but in case of this discussion random assumption is OK). Since one parent will have both "healthy" copies, no matter what gene comes from other parent, the child still ends up with a healthy copy of a gene.

A brother and a sister, however, will have many genes where they each have a "damaged" copy. When they have a child, the child will have a 25% chance of getting both damaged copies... for EACH gene matching. Therefore, chance of kid being healthy is 0.75^(# of genes where both parents have a bad copy). Since intelligence is a quite complex characteristic, it is likely to be the first thing affected through those genetic disabilities. That is why incest results in retarded babies. Provided those babies do not die before they are born because they will have a number of disabilities.

This is also the reason why small closed communities have higher prevalence of genetic disabilities - parents are too closely related. If you were thinking marrying someone from a community where people are only allowed to marry people from that community (we are talking a relatively small communities, not a whole country), don't. Chances are, they are retarded.

So, since consequences of brother and sister are pretty dire, nature had no choice but to put factors that prevent incest. Brother and sister must find each other sexually repulsive. That must overcome otherwise unavoidable convenience of incest - brother and sister are usually geographically close to each other, so all other things equal they would have sex with each other more often that with others. evolution introduced that repulsiveness. Since people did not know why exactly brother and sister usually find each other repulsive, they just concluded that it is just bad. Therefore, taboos on incest came around.

Also, this is likely to be the same reason why generally same sex people do not want to have sex - which is why homosexuals are a minority - their sex will not produce kids and, therefore, their genes will die without being passes on. Most likely that is why taboo on gay sex came around. From evolutionary standpoint, homosexualism is the same as abstention. Nowadays, however, that is no problem for humanity as a whole - humanity does not need to have its population increased since we own the planet anyway and can keep owing it even with 1% of our number. The only reason why gay people are acted against is reactionary clinging to a taboo that is obsolete.

Taboo on incest, however, is and will always be necessary: we do not need retards around. It would be bad for them to live like that and bad for us for having to support them...
 
Archonsod said:
IIRC the bad thing about incest is rather than receiving two versions of each gene, the child only receives one.

That's the advantage too though.
In GA programming, allowing inbreeding
(there are a number of ways) actually gets
you to a solution faster. Restricting it tends
to promote diversity (which allows for flexibility).

What we learn from this is that if we want particular
traits, inbreeding for them is a good strategy (something
animal breeders have known for a long time). So, some
inbreeding, amongst the very best, seems a good solution.
Hence, it actually made sense for nobility to do so. Well,
other than people like Charles II. Now, if only the bad ones
could have been set aside....
 
I've seen the effects of centuries of moderate inbreeding. It isn't pretty, and the retarded woman with the beard scared the **** out of me when I was a little boy...  :neutral:
 
calandale said:
Archonsod said:
IIRC the bad thing about incest is rather than receiving two versions of each gene, the child only receives one.
That's the advantage too though.
In GA programming, allowing inbreeding
(there are a number of ways) actually gets
you to a solution faster. Restricting it tends
to promote diversity (which allows for flexibility).

What we learn from this is that if we want particular
traits, inbreeding for them is a good strategy (something
animal breeders have known for a long time). So, some
inbreeding, amongst the very best, seems a good solution.
Hence, it actually made sense for nobility to do so. Well,
other than people like Charles II. Now, if only the bad ones
could have been set aside....
Among humans, inbreeding is ALWAYS a poor solution. You might get people with traits you want, but they will be retarded and their immune system will be a piece of ****. It is impossible to have those peoples' children have gene of interest without also being retards. Name a single genetically inherited trait that you child would have for which would worth your child being a retard that always get sick.

Ever wondered why non-pure breed dogs are both smarter and live longer than pure breeds? Inbreeding is pretty much a crime against nature. Since humanity owns nature, we can rape it the way we want. But that does not mean it is OK to do that to ourselves.

If we want to promote a certain gene, we should arrange marriages between non-related people who happen to have that gene. Or, scientists will be able to extract egg and a sperm cell, insert a needed gene into their genomes and then let them fuse and introduce back into mother. That is a lot more targeted way.
 
NikkTheTrick said:
Since humanity owns nature, we can rape it the way we want. But that does not mean it is OK to do that to ourselves.
:shock:

I'd say it'd be the opposite, inbreed between yourselves all you want but don't **** with the nature. And since when did humans start to own the nature? We surely have very limited control over it, much more limited than say insects...
 
Cleaning Agent said:
I've seen the effects of centuries of moderate inbreeding. It isn't pretty, and the retarded woman with the beard scared the **** out of me when I was a little boy...  :neutral:

NikkTheTrick said:
Among humans, inbreeding is ALWAYS a poor solution. You might get people with traits you want, but they will be retarded and their immune system will be a piece of ****. It is impossible to have those peoples' children have gene of interest without also being retards. Name a single genetically inherited trait that you child would have for which would worth your child being a retard that always get sick.

To set the record here, my father's family
is heavily inbred. In recent years, there have been
a goodly number of PhD's in it. Physical health has
been pretty good, too. Emotionally, less so, but most
of that could probably be correlated to AS traits.

In prior generations, when the inbreeding was closer
to the surface (say around 1900), we're looking at
Engineers, early aviators, and other positions fitting
to the nobility, at that time. Hard to really tell, further back,
as it's never clear whether gains were made through
shrewdness, or mere fighting skills.

The point is that you kill off the crap stock.

Ever wondered why non-pure breed dogs are both smarter and live longer than pure breeds? Inbreeding is pretty much a crime against nature. Since humanity owns nature, we can rape it the way we want. But that does not mean it is OK to do that to ourselves.

Yes, over-emphasizing inbreeding doesn't make
sense. You always want some new genetic material,
in order to maintain certain flexibility. But, if you want
fast dogs, you breed greyhounds, not mix them with
terriers.

If we want to promote a certain gene, we should arrange marriages between non-related people who happen to have that gene. Or, scientists will be able to extract egg and a sperm cell, insert a needed gene into their genomes and then let them fuse and introduce back into mother. That is a lot more targeted way.

I agree. This sort of engineering makes sense.

But, my question wasn't whether incest serves
a good purpose today, but rather (given my own
desire to have had a sister - in more than one way),
whether those families inured to inbreeding would
NOT be so wired as to detect something wrong chemically.

I know that I felt great attraction to a couple of cousins
(and I kinda think they did as well - given certain behavior
I noticed). Some people simply recoil at the very concept,
but our family seems not to tend that way - even though there
(obviously) hasn't been such in a couple generations.


Ilex said:
NikkTheTrick said:
Since humanity owns nature, we can rape it the way we want. But that does not mean it is OK to do that to ourselves.
:shock:

I'd say it'd be the opposite, inbreed between yourselves all you want but don't **** with the nature. And since when did humans start to own the nature? We surely have very limited control over it, much more limited than say insects...

You're not Christian, Ilex. The Bible more or less tells people
to use everything as we like. Somehow though, humans are
exempt. Complete bigotry.

 
Ilex said:
NikkTheTrick said:
Since humanity owns nature, we can rape it the way we want. But that does not mean it is OK to do that to ourselves.
:shock:

I'd say it'd be the opposite, inbreed between yourselves all you want but don't **** with the nature. And since when did humans start to own the nature? We surely have very limited control over it, much more limited than say insects...
We are capable of annihilating species (such as Smallpox) at our whim. We can destroy most of life on Earth with nukes. We can change whole biological systems through pollution or terraform. Nature is literally our ***** right now. We can bend it over, we can order it to strip and lie down, we can rape it in any way imaginable. Whether we have a moral right for that is irrelevant.

Nature is currently uncapable, and will not be capable for a long while, to counter current means we have against it. Nature cannot identify us as an enemy and work towards our downfall, while we can identify any part of nature that does not fit our interests and go medieval on it.

Nature had a chance against us when we were apes, the time is gone. We can produce antibiotics, only international treaties prevent us from producing biological weapons that we, at our whim, can target against any species or number of them. Nature, perhaps, made its biggest mistakes when it did not kill off humanity when we were just apes without fur. We now possess technology that is not within reach of any other species for millenia of evolution. We are capable of abrupting evolution of any species that might have chance of becoming intelligent. We can bind other species (like dogs and cows) to serve our interests.
 
Your original statement
implies that there is some
moral right to doing those
things. And moreover, some
prohibition to doing anything like
them to humans.

Where do you get THIS from?
Not at all what you addressed.
 
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