I want to be a woman.

[ilikemilkshake]

That would look funny IRL:

An officer approaches a line of musketeers:
-Why aren't responding to my orders?!? Why aren't you shooting at the enemy?!?
-B... but, sir... th... they're women, sir!
-What?!? (Looks at the approaching formation of "valkyries") Witches! Get off my battlefield and let my men do their job!
-No! We've come here to fight! (Chuckles somewhere in the lines)
-Come to your sense, woman! This is no place for you!
-No! Fight us!
-GO AWAY!
-Shoot me, God damn it! I'm your enemy!
-I'm not going to shoot a woman...
-Shoot me!
-No.
-SHOOT ME.
-(Silence)
-SHOOT ME SHOOT ME SHOOT ME! I HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS TO GET SHOT IN BATTLE! WHY ARE YOU SO MEAN??? (BAAAAAW follows)

So i was playing this really realistic game, its called Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword, I was galloping around the enemy firing pot shots into the mass of soldiers. What luck! I had scored a headshot on the enemy general. Firearms level 172 achieved!
The enemy began to route and our cavalry ran down the fleeing enemy!
The battle has finished but whats this? The enemy general has escaped! ..But i shot him in the face? Oh no.. My sense of immersion is crumbling, i suddenly realise im not actually in the 17th centuary and im actually playing a game. I start crying but realise it's okay because at least there arent women on the battlefield.. but then this strange feeling washes over me, I turn around and to my horror I see a companion that I hired from the tavern. She's a woman! but hang on, why was the enemy in our last battle not frozen with laughter? Oh no! The immersion again! Im loosing it because the enemy werent really laughing like they would have in the 17th centuary

 

[Gr0vZ]

That would look funny IRL:

A game's a game for me, I thought I made that clear.

 

[POM_Achilles]

Attn: Facts incoming.

Mount and Blade was originally developed by a husband wife team, alone. That is as equal as you can get. Mount and Blade and Warband take place in Calradia, a fictional Middle Ages land based around fictional nations. These nations respected the female as equals, as is told in the beginning of the game. Mount and Blade and Warband both were developed by Taleworlds, with the original husband/wife team leading the charge.

With Fire and Sword was developed by an outside developer that came to Taleworlds and asked them if they wished to make a game based on a book that was written in the 1800s, about a period 100-200 years earlier. It was based around male nobility of the time, with their wives playing secondary roles. This game is meant to mirror the book, with you playing a 'main character' of sorts. This book, time period, and game would benefit very little from a female as the main character, as it fits with nothing it is about.

I'm sorry that everyone here wishes to make such a big deal about this, but frankly I find you all to be equally ignorant. Those that are saying they are boycotting the game because of this are ignorant of the game, and are fools that think the word stops with them. Those that insult women are ignorant for very obvious reasons, and deserve no response or any dignifying response. Both parties are a disgrace, and you should all feel ashamed that you let emotions take over reality, and let your feeling of self worth take over your senses.

To wrap this up, I'll share a little something about myself. I am a Native American, and as a Native American, there aren't a lot of games made about me, even in games with character customization. Do I boycott every game that does not have Native Americans? No, I live with it. Women are a minority in the gaming community just as Native Americans are a minority everywhere. Women in the west are not oppressed beings, nor are they minorities, especially the white females. You are the majority, and this is an oddity in human history. As such, feel glad that you are now equal, and no, not having female characters in a game does not make you oppressed, nor does an ignorant 15 year old making sandwich jokes. If you find the need to continuously be insulted over every little thing about your sex, you will die a sad, lonely life, as no one will want to be around you, both women and men.

Nice post, but I think this thread is too far gone for reason.

 

[BenFree]

This thread.... I'm disappointed in the M&B community, every-time it gets anywhere near a conclusion some new twat turns up spewing sexist ****

So I thought I'd re-join the flame/discussion.
For some reason it's turned into - could a woman be a good solider, which doesn't seem that relevant, but meh.
I think this is a statement we could all agree with: In war, the smarter more adaptive side will win. A hypothetical - a battle between an all female army and an all male army - if the female side is better trained and their commander has a better grasp of tactics - they will win. Individual strength doesn't matter that much, due to weapons, tactics and team-work. As to those arguing that modern equipment is too heavy for the average women - who makes the weapons? With our technology we could easily make the equipment lighter without making it less effective, but due to predetermined ideas of gender roles - weapons are designed for the average man.
I'm sure being strong is nice - but strength isn't really our (as a species) speciality, it's nothing to be too proud off, strength doesn't build computers, or computer games. Oh and a personal gripe - whoever said the natural distribution of labour was such that men hunted, and women gathered - you're an idiot.

Back on topic, it's important to remember this feature (playing as women) wasn't not added, rather it was removed - which is why so many people are pissed off I think. To my mind, the creators haven't justified this choice well, it feels more like they're trying to exclude women, I'm sure they weren't but it's kinda how it seems.

 

[Night Ninja]

A hypothetical - a battle between an all female army and an all male army - if the female side is better trained and their commander has a better grasp of tactics - they will win.

What you're essentially saying that one side will win if they're flat-out better than the other. Somehow, I think people figured that one out for themselves.

With our technology we could easily make the equipment lighter without making it less effective, but due to predetermined ideas of gender roles - weapons are designed for the average man.

Not without compromising on one aspect or another. Technology only goes so far without the aid of phlebotinum.

Oh and a personal gripe - whoever said the natural distribution of labour was such that men hunted, and women gathered - you're an idiot.

I'm quite sure that whoever said that was being completely facetious.

 

[mfa_uk]

Someone call Deadliest Warrior cause a forum post isn't evidence enough to prove your point.

From the looks of things this got turned from a complaint about "female" looking avatar not being available into a discussion on who is better, men or women.

Ultimately we are both designed for different things, a mans hands are bigger meaning a bigger club, mens brains are hard wired for 3D situational awareness throwing rocks, spears etc., womens brains are hard wired for linguistics meaning better at communication and they have a higher sense of smell and taste.

Granted there is always an exception to the cause, Joan of Arc is an exception, but she was being told what to do by God, being Male (JOKE!!! before someone grabs a rope and looks for a lynching tree, I believe God is both Male and Female so there)

Women and Men are NOT EQUAL in everything we do,  we have our strengths and weakness, physical prowess tends to fall into the realm of men, communication and grace tends to fall into the realm of women.

In reality i don't think women should be allowed on the front-line unless absolutely necessary.  I'm not a bigot, I'm not sexist and I have my reasons, but to shout sexist because a man disagrees with a woman is bloody stupid.

Ultimately this is a game and a game should cater for everyone right? A book/movie/story is from a "point of view", a game is interactive. Removing the option for a "female" avatar was not sexist, but an oversight, historically war is/was the province of men, cant call me sexist for stating a fact.

 

[Senior Jarl Raven]

It doesn't really have anything to do with that. Modern-times, things have changed, but back in that century, you would've been burned as a witch if you tried to lead an army/even be in the army as a woman. So women really have no place in With Fire and Sword, not because Taleworlds are sexist developers, but merely due to the culture of the time.

I agree!!! but still, it would be fun if there would be a mod for to be a woman 

 

[yigg23]

Attn: Facts incoming.

Mount and Blade was originally developed by a husband wife team, alone. That is as equal as you can get. Mount and Blade and Warband take place in Calradia, a fictional Middle Ages land based around fictional nations. These nations respected the female as equals, as is told in the beginning of the game. Mount and Blade and Warband both were developed by Taleworlds, with the original husband/wife team leading the charge.

With Fire and Sword was developed by an outside developer that came to Taleworlds and asked them if they wished to make a game based on a book that was written in the 1800s, about a period 100-200 years earlier. It was based around male nobility of the time, with their wives playing secondary roles. This game is meant to mirror the book, with you playing a 'main character' of sorts. This book, time period, and game would benefit very little from a female as the main character, as it fits with nothing it is about.

I'm sorry that everyone here wishes to make such a big deal about this, but frankly I find you all to be equally ignorant. Those that are saying they are boycotting the game because of this are ignorant of the game, and are fools that think the word stops with them. Those that insult women are ignorant for very obvious reasons, and deserve no response or any dignifying response. Both parties are a disgrace, and you should all feel ashamed that you let emotions take over reality, and let your feeling of self worth take over your senses.

To wrap this up, I'll share a little something about myself. I am a Native American, and as a Native American, there aren't a lot of games made about me, even in games with character customization. Do I boycott every game that does not have Native Americans? No, I live with it. Women are a minority in the gaming community just as Native Americans are a minority everywhere. Women in the west are not oppressed beings, nor are they minorities, especially the white females. You are the majority, and this is an oddity in human history. As such, feel glad that you are now equal, and no, not having female characters in a game does not make you oppressed, nor does an ignorant 15 year old making sandwich jokes. If you find the need to continuously be insulted over every little thing about your sex, you will die a sad, lonely life, as no one will want to be around you, both women and men.

This.

It would have been like me boycotting that show "Monk" because it portrays people with OCD, like myself, as being germ fearing weaklings.  No, I boycotted it because I for some unknown reason, have a deep-seeded hatred for the main actor, not because the show so offended me that I felt it would be an act against god to watch it.

... P.S.  I've been awake for far too long now and I'm kinda sick, so if this post didn't make much sense, now you know why.  If it did, that means I won.

 

[BenFree]

Ultimately we are both designed for different things, a mans hands are bigger meaning a bigger club, mens brains are hard wired for 3D situational awareness throwing rocks, spears etc., womens brains are hard wired for linguistics meaning better at communication and they have a higher sense of smell and taste.

Nope, citation please - oh and to prove things like this (I'm talking about the points related to the brain, not hands), that is biological absolutes - you need a multi-cultural study, to prove it's not the case that women are not socially encouraged to be good at spacial awareness - pseudo-science very little evidence for it. I'd argue, as others have before me, that talents are socially relative, for instance peoples with pictorial written languages tend to do better in some aspects of IQ testing. The brain is very complex and so are people, don't generalise.

"Women and Men are NOT EQUAL in everything we do" This here, I can fix it for ya: "People are not equal in everything they do..."

Ughhhhhhh - people get so defensive when you talk about sexism, or racism or anything of the sort - it's "but i'm not sexist... whine.... whine.... not sexist.."
If you're not sexist, why do you think the accusations of sexism are aimed at you? Maybe a little harsh - to put it more politely: If I think you're sexist, I'll tell you, until I do you don't need to argue against it"


EDIT: for typo 

 

[yigg23]

Ughhhhhhh - people get so defensive when you talk about sexism, or racism or anything of the sort - it's "but i'm not sexist... whine.... whine.... not sexist.."
If you're not sexist, why do you think the accusations of sexism are aimed at you? Maybe a little harsh - to put it more politely: If I think you're sexist, I'll tell you, until I do you don't need to argue against it"

Sorry, but while that may be true in some cases, most of the time it turns out to be bull.  People use sex and race as excuses when someone doesn't agree with them, or they don't like the outcome of the situation.  Think about it like this.  A man gets fired; he would be laughed into his grave for claiming it was because his boss was sexist.  If a woman gets fired; she can very easily claim her boss was sexist, etc etc, while in reality she may well have just been a lazy *****, and anyone that calls her on it is then called a sexist.  Does that mean that the person that called them on it is sexist?  No.  It means that someone is so weak that they have to use societies broken views and their gender as a crutch.

Again, gonna use my OCD as an example here.  If I get fired from my work, I'm not going to go screaming discrimination, using my sickness as a crutch, when in reality, I was being a lazy bastard and not doing the job they hired me for.  If I did, it would disgrace me, as well as others with my condition.  Just because you may be different in some way/ are in some "minority", does not give you the right/excuse to use it as an excuse and crutch any time you don't get your way.

 

[mfa_uk]

Ultimately we are both designed for different things, a mans hands are bigger meaning a bigger club, mens brains are hard wired for 3D situational awareness throwing rocks, spears etc., womens brains are hard wired for linguistics meaning better at communication and they have a higher sense of smell and taste.

Nope, citation please - oh and to prove things like this (I'm talking about the points related to the brain, not hands), that is biological absolutes - you need a multi-cultural study, to prove it's not the case that women are not socially encouraged to be good at spacial awareness - pseudo-science very little evidence for it. I'd argue, as others have before me, that talents are socially relative, for instance peoples with pictorial written languages tend to do better in some aspects of IQ testing. The brain is very complex and so are people, don't generalise.

"Women and Men are NOT EQUAL in everything we do" This here, I can fix it for ya: "People are not equal in everything they do..."

Ughhhhhhh - people get so defensive when you talk about sexism, or racism or anything of the sort - it's "but i'm not sexist... whine.... whine.... not sexist.."
If you're not sexist, why do you think the accusations of sexism are aimed at you? Maybe a little harsh - to put it more politely: If I think you're sexist, I'll tell you, until I do you don't need to argue against it"

EDIT: for typo 

For the 'absolutes';

http://www.mastersofhealthcare.com/blog/2009/10-big-differences-between-mens-and-womens-brains/
http://www.natureinterface.com/e/ni01/P058/

"Women and Men are NOT EQUAL in everything we do" yes you can add your comment when you take the quote out of context.

Generalization, sorry but we are talking in general terms, it's hard not to generalize and you are at fault as anyone else here for that.

As for the rest of your comments, meh, I disagree with most of the key points, not out of any sense of spite or malice, I just think some are misguided, oh the JOY of opinion lol.

If you are strong be proud, it takes effort to train the body as well as the mind.

Either way it's all a moot point at the end of the day.

Ughhhhhhh - people get so defensive when you talk about sexism, or racism or anything of the sort - it's "but i'm not sexist... whine.... whine.... not sexist.."
If you're not sexist, why do you think the accusations of sexism are aimed at you? Maybe a little harsh - to put it more politely: If I think you're sexist, I'll tell you, until I do you don't need to argue against it"

Sorry, but while that may be true in some cases, most of the time it turns out to be bull.  People use sex and race as excuses when someone doesn't agree with them, or they don't like the outcome of the situation.  Think about it like this.  A man gets fired; he would be laughed into his grave for claiming it was because his boss was sexist.  If a woman gets fired; she can very easily claim her boss was sexist, etc etc, while in reality she may well have just been a lazy *****, and anyone that calls her on it is then called a sexist.  Does that mean that the person that called them on it is sexist?  No.  It means that someone is so weak that they have to use societies broken views and their gender as a crutch.

Again, gonna use my OCD as an example here.  If I get fired from my work, I'm not going to go screaming discrimination, using my sickness as a crutch, when in reality, I was being a lazy bastard and not doing the job they hired me for.  If I did, it would disgrace me, as well as others with my condition.  Just because you may be different in some way/ are in some "minority", does not give you the right/excuse to use it as an excuse and crutch any time you don't get your way.

Amen

 

[BenFree]

Firstly while I'm glad you don't hold any malice or spite towards me I'm baffled as to why you felt the need to tell me...

Ah some citations, I have some for you as well:

Anne Fausto-Sterling: Myths of Gender
Rosalind C. Barnett: The Truth About Boys and Girls: How Gender Stereotypes Harm Our Children
Fine, Cordelia: Delusions of Gender ---- Realted article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/sep/10/gender-gap-myth-cordelia-fine
(To read most of these you need a library, online or physical.)

I don't want to be too rude, but if you're going to provide sources you really do need to make sure they're valid and trustworthy. I can't accept your citations - for one thing the second site doesn't cite (Excuse the pun), also for the reasons and arguments present in my sources - it's still all pseudo-science

Also, you say I'm guilty of generalising, and you may well be correct (it's easy to do), if you make a claim like that you should give an example. This also goes for "it's a moot point" how so? Also which point, I made a few?
On to the hypothetical situations raised by yigg - Women are more likely to be fired due to sexism than men, of course some of the claims will be lies - but then it's really hard to prove, the employee can always make some nebulous claim about the quality of the ex-employees work - unless they've actually written "Fired that *****, because I hate women" it's hard to police. There are some cases of men successfully challenging sexist dismissals, it is a lot rarer though.

 

[mfa_uk]

See, tit for tat.

BenFree, the reason i mentioned about malice or spite is that, if i remember correctly 80% of a conversation is body language, 13% tone and 7% content; you don't know how I'm feeling, or my intent towards you. Indeed I have a perception of you that you wouldn't like and I'm sure you have one of me.

Your citations are worthless too you know, "how could that be?" you ask well just because it's written doesn't make it true, and yes that goes for my citations too. In 10 years those will be shown as false and there is another method that has all the answers.

All you want is evidence mate yet offer little yourself other then your opinion, that is why it is a moot point, ultimately my life is no better for this back and forth, I have no need to 'prove' myself to you or anyone as I am content with myself and the situation.

 

[Spinewire]

This thread is full of ridiculous....

 

[mfa_uk]

Yup. Should be locked?

 

[POM_Achilles]

I'm going to rofl so hard if I check back here in a week and this thread is at 100 pages.

Although I may also kill myself...

 

[edyzmedieval]

Epic thread. 60 pages of why women should or shouldn't be included in a video game.

 

[xenoargh]

All of the "against" people should probably read the first post of this:

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,170275.0.html

Like we've said all along... no matter where you stand on this, it's a marketing disaster. 

For every person like this, who bothered to register for the forums and openly admit that:

A.  She's female
B. Unhappy with purchase

...there are, statistically, at least 50 people who feel the same way, but didn't bother with registering on the Forums, or signed on with Guest access and then found out that this has been done on purpose, not merely a bug.

 

[Spinewire]

I don't understand the argument for really, it would have just not have happened as back then women were 2nd class citizens. That's ignoring the fact that it's the most asinine argument I think may have seen on a gaming forum.

Where's all the ***** posts about not being able to play a man in tomb raider?

Someone needs to lock this a tell whatever "female" that started this thread that they have more important things to be doing than playing video games, yea that's right I went there.... Boom!

 

[xenoargh]

Hey, thanks for repeating all of the jerk posts in one place.  You just forgot to curse or imply that I am gay (I'm a straight guy who made a brutal combat mod for Warband, and I think this was wrong, btw) or use foul epithets.