Hireing higher lvl soldiers?

[Zajcew]

I know that this could (and propably will) take some ballance off the force, but I think it would be cool to be able to hire higher lvl soldiers like veterans or man-at-arms.
The thing is, putting together a party, that consists of let's say 20-30 knights is pretty much impossibile. And training those basic units is very difficult when you have a higher lvl char, and would like to fight some bigger enemies (like war parties and especially black knights). If I enter this kind of battle, I will lose 3/4 of my man (if not all of them), and will have to form a new party of basic units again. And then I'll want to fight something big again and loose them again.
So what do you think about an idea to be able to hire lvl 3 and 4 units (but never lvl 5 like knights), but only after you reach a certain lvl? We could discuss which lvl would that be exactly but I think around 20-30. I know it would require more tweaking and balancing, but I'm sure we could do it right. Of course those high lvl soldiers should be considerably exopensive to hire, so it's not too easy for the player to keep hireing new troops all the time.

 

[armagan]

I hope your exams are over and you have passed them all .

 

[Zajcew]

I hope your exams are over and you have passed them all .

My exams are over, but I haven't passed them all and I'll have to pass them in a second run or I'm out of the school. Damn you Warrider!

 

[armagan]

It seems it is time for you to take your mind off games, internet, girls and all the other fun things in life and concentrate on your courses. If I were you I would shut down that computer and not open it again until the next round of exams are over. You shouldn't even check your mail etc. Stop everything else and study. Seriously...

 

[Zajcew]

Heh, don't worry, I'll be fine. I passed the most important exam (law) while over 75% of people have failed it, so it's all good.
I wasn't able to focus on studying becasue I had lot's of problems in my life lateley, pretty much all january sucked, with bad stuff happening all the time, and I'm glad at least I had Warrirder to keep my mind of worrying.
So don't worry about my exams, I'll pass them for sure.
Better start thinking about this idea here, 3 people already voted for it.

 

[siim]

I'd argue with that getting 20-30 knights is impossible. On the contrary, it adds a bit of the challenge to the game. Only thing that pissed me was the quests to rise 5-6-9- knights and just give them away.

My proposition would that for example, if you gain high ranks by serving one of the sides in war, and you have a high level, you can recruit men from scoutis or war parties or give them orders to patrol around some certain city etc.

 

[armagan]

Giving orders to other parties if you are higher in rank is really a good idea. It would also make rising in the army more interesting and attactive. I'll try to do that...

 

[Zajcew]

Ahhh, I really like the idea of gaining high rank in the military would be complimentary to hire high lvl troops. But I would like to see it like this:

You gain some high military status (and lets say lvln15): you can hire lvl 3 troops
You gain even higher military status (and lets say lvl 20): you can hire lvl 4 troops
You gain the highest military status (and let's say lvl 30): you can hire knights.

Hireing should be from city lord.
What do you guys think?

 

[armagan]

One problem that comes to mind about this proposal:

The game is already too difficult when you start and too easy when you become powerful. Letting the player hire knights in the late game can disturb the balance even more...

Also I am going to add some parties transfering prisoners between towns. (Does anyone think of a good game for such parties? I am thinking of naming them "prisoner train" or "prisoner convoy". Would that make sense?) When you defeat a "prisoner train" you'll be able to liberate the knights, men at arms etc and have them join your party.

 

[Zajcew]

Well, I take back my earlier statement that getting a 20-30 knights party is impossibile, as I command 20 knights right now.
Yes, the game is too easy in later stages, but mostly becasue your char is so powerfull, he kills everything that stands in his way. When you fight Dark Knights it's very likely that you'll win, but simply because your char slaughtered most of them, while your team, even if consists of 20 knights is still no match and get's butchered. So hireing highl lvl units would make keeping a party at later stage have a little more sense. I mean how does it matter if I lead 20 knights or 20 peasents in to fight against Dark Knights or more powerfull War Parties, if I know perfectly well they are all going to die anyway?
I'm all for prisoner convoys idea, but units guarding such a convoy should be equally powerfull as those that are guarded, so if you want to liberate a 10 peasents, guards should be few and weak, but 20 knights should be very well guarded, so that it's not so difficult to liberate them.

 

[ShadowMoses]

Maybe there could be a storyline element that introduces harder opponents?

 

[armagan]

There will definitely be a story-line element although it will probably take us a few months to sort that out. But the game needs to be challenging enough without the storyline. It seems to me that part of the reason for the "easiness" at high levels is the stats of the armor. Armor is so effective that you don't have to worry about most of the blows you take. So I am going to reduce armor stats by approx. 25%.

Also I usually test the gameplay with low level characters. I think I should also do some testing with high-level ones as well ...

 

[Thormac]

I think also that player should have a possibility to hire higher level units if he has a certain rank in a faction.


The problem you talk about lies MAINLY in the wages (good to hear about the armor reduction though). In Pirates! they designed it so that player had a hard time maintaining a large force. Currently I'm running with 20-25 knights + few guardsmen and I have to pay them about 600-700 gold a week. This is horribly wrong. I feel that the cost should be about x10 on average. Lesser units less than x10 and higher ones more than x10.

The storyline should introduce some hard challenges in some point at the latter part of the game so that player should raise a skilled and large force for some task(s). Running around with huge army of knights should be way too expensive eventually. Player should raid and pillage like crazy to upkeep them.

I strongly think player should have an OPTION to run a large war party of even 100 men. Consisting it mainly with knights and other high lvl units would just not be viable optio due to costs. On the other hand raising an army of peasants and militiamen would not be as good idea as it sounds. Most of them would (in reality) eventually run away due to poor morale. I really hope morale is going to be in the game. Player should have "seemingly" vast amount of options. Currently it feels like maxed out freeriding.

In addition I feel that units close (or equal) to players rank should be able to take something from the loot. Peasants and such are left empty handed.
EDIT: I mean like small precentage of GOLD and/or valuable small items. They shouldn't take any equipment to use. If hiring cost would be increased like I suggested the loot could also be increased a bit to seem more realistic.


Pavlov wrote about a month ago that there should be a some sort of class specific upgrades (maybe others have said this too). I agree. Distinctive branching of units would bring something new to the game. Now I feel that I have only weaklings, not so weakling and strong units.
Player could hire the unit types (branch of service if you will) he likes (and more importantly needs) from city lord. So if he needs horse riders or missile troops he hires them. Unit branched for footman duty should not take a horse on his own. Hiring non-faction troops like nomads could be possible also. Maybe they would take less pay, require no rank or level, but would come only in small bands (just a thought).

When upgrading became available there should be the neccessary equipment in the loot. for example, if militiaman was ready to be upgraded, and he could be branched to archer, swordman, horseman and so forth, and there was only a horse in the loot he would be able to upgrade to mounted militiaman only.

Upgraded units could still maintain their old salary at least for a while. Unit upgraded to knight wouldn't be "officially" knight yet. Only when player returned to visit the same city unit was hired from the salary would be updated. Now player with low budget could benefit from upgrades in a small way. Maybe equipment given to unit would also be compensated up to certain degree. Unit's salary could be considered payed in advance for appropriate time.

This distincting branching of units where they had their clear strenghts and weaknesses would need additional alterations to the battle to be clearly noticeable. Maybe I'll think of something solid suggestions (which presumably will suck).

 

[armagan]

Hi Thormac,

Sorry for the late reply. I have been thinking about your suggestion. I will increase troop wages somewhat but I don't want to make any drastic changes.

Note that Pirates!'s economical model is quite different from Mount&Blade's model (I'm trying to get used to the new name) In Pirates! your mates have a share in the bounty. Therefore, if you have collected a big bounty and then go and hire a large goup of men, the morale suddenly drops. Your men are pissed off because they will have to share their hard earned gold with the newcomers now. (And those men haven't become pirates because they love to share) In mount&blade the gold is your own personal gold and you pay your soldiers wages. So it's a different story.

Note: I'll implement Pavlov's suggestion as soon as I decide on the upgrade trees.

 

[Thormac]

You are right armagan. Pirates! is a bit different. I just wished that player wouldn't have maxed out party trough the whole game. I also forgot to mention that I had about 200000 gold last time. Bought a few black armors for my heroes and have less now.

My point is that even if wages were 10x higher I could maintain my 25+knight party too easilly. There is too much money and you can't hire more units with it. I also think that the cost difference between lower and higher units is barely existing. Approximately 10 peasant should cost as much as one knight. On the otherhand morale and fleeing should be implenmented for this to be reasonable.

Note: I'll implement Pavlov's suggestion as soon as I decide on the upgrade trees.

I thought about this also and will scrape something up. I will post my suggestion soon. I hope you can get some usable ideas from it.