I have seen those models of armors and helmets before... Aren't they from Alkhadias' "Western Invaders" mod?
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Ackwell
Regular
I think you should have shields in this mod too. The lower level troops in feudal Japan did use them. They had rectangular shields very much like european pavise or round shields for more movement. Just for the lower level infantry. The samurai didn't use shields because using bow and katana needed both hands free and thats why they had heavy armor to shield themselves from arrows and sword cuts. Lower level troops didnt have heavy armor so they had shields. The reason you don't see them in any drawings or art is that the japanese art is usually picturing the higher level samurai soldiers, not the lower level troops. Shield was a cheap cover against arrows for the mass army which would have just been too expensive to fit with heavy armor.
http://horse.shrine.net/samurai/jinmu.html
It could be a nice feature that high level samurai could never be taken as prisoner or saved from enemy parties because of them committing seppuku if facing a prisonment or after heavy losses. They would be much more harder to get because you would have to train all the high level samurais from the lower level troops.
http://horse.shrine.net/samurai/jinmu.html
It could be a nice feature that high level samurai could never be taken as prisoner or saved from enemy parties because of them committing seppuku if facing a prisonment or after heavy losses. They would be much more harder to get because you would have to train all the high level samurais from the lower level troops.
butscrew
Sergeant Knight at Arms
Slawomir of Aaarrghh said:
shalictar got permission from Alkhadia to use some of his models. Not sure how many items he let shal use but it was a bit.
As for shields well the samurai didn't use them and this is a samurai mod and instead of shielding againest arrows they developed the "Art of Arrow Cutting" called "yadomejutsu". They would chop the arrows out of the air with a sword, spear or naginata. This meant that one arrow out of the 10 speeding towards them would not hit them.
Yadomejutsu its like baseball only the pitcher can kill you.
As far as I know the Ashigaru did not use shields they were known as light foot for a reason, but that doesn't mean that any Minpei (militia) or kousakuno (peasants) didn't carry shields if they could. The samurai's did not provide the poor people with weapons after all, they had to use whatever they had or get what they needed by themselves in most cases.
The shields mostly used were large about the size of a door, which was set up in the ground and hidden behind during archer attacks the movie the Last Samurai in the final battle scene has these big shields in it.
However I asked the Japanese history buff at my school today and he said that shields were not used during the Sengoku jidai (this mods timeline) they were used in more ancient Japan like 650 AD. This mod takes place in the 1500's. I found these while surfing the web so you can see what type of shields they used.
http://www.pbase.com/joanseeuw/image/41052063
http://www.pbase.com/joanseeuw/image/41052065
http://horse.shrine.net/samurai/jinmu.html
Me personally I think they look more like a coffee table without legs. But apparently this shield type is pre-heian so... really old. The last picture is from a picture painted when Jinmu was the emperor Jinmu Tennou which was 500 something AD.
Oh and one last link I found interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_traditional_armaments
shalictar
Slawomir of Aaarrghh said:
Yes I got permission to use all his models.
but he has permission to use ours as well.
@ butscrew
I wonder if it would be possible to implement yadomejustsu?
Aetheus
Sergeant at Arms
butscrew said:
If you add a shield katana to infantry troops, people would complain that its dual wielding, which is apparently a heinous inclusion for anything M&B related due to its "unrealism". And if the troops carry two handed weapons (were katanas historically used as such? Were katanas even historically mass produced for armies?), they wouldn't even use the shield.
ChivalricMKD
Regular
just lose the shields and put more guns butscrew
Sergeant Knight at Arms
I was just saying that it MAY be possible if we try it this way. Instead of a wakizashi being used as a dual weapon (silly idea they never used the wakizashi on their offhand in real life) the Japanese main style of blocking other then parrying was using their scabbard.... so making the scabbard a shield would be more Samuraish (made up my own word).
Still there should not be shields in this mod. Although I have heard that certain clans in Hokkaido and Shikoku did use shields in battle during the Sengoku Jidai (Japanese history teacher), neither of those places are near the Heaven and Earth mod location.
Katanas were not massed produced they were crafted by hand with each one being different in some way (not by design). You wouldn't see a medieval Japanese peasant with a katana. Samurai's got katana's and the rest got spears or bows, hence why the Japanese were great spearmen. However that would be boring as all hell so for entertainment purposes Shalictar is spicying up the troop tree with some katana wielding troops.
Though there is a katana factory in Kyoto, but I am not sure if they hand craft or use cookie cutters (pour the iron into a mold) to make their katana's. Pretty expensive either way.
Still there should not be shields in this mod. Although I have heard that certain clans in Hokkaido and Shikoku did use shields in battle during the Sengoku Jidai (Japanese history teacher), neither of those places are near the Heaven and Earth mod location.
Katanas were not massed produced they were crafted by hand with each one being different in some way (not by design). You wouldn't see a medieval Japanese peasant with a katana. Samurai's got katana's and the rest got spears or bows, hence why the Japanese were great spearmen. However that would be boring as all hell so for entertainment purposes Shalictar is spicying up the troop tree with some katana wielding troops.
Though there is a katana factory in Kyoto, but I am not sure if they hand craft or use cookie cutters (pour the iron into a mold) to make their katana's. Pretty expensive either way.
The Mercenary
Grandmaster Knight
Wait, wait, wait. So the theoretical samurai cut the arrow out of the air. I'm going to hazard a guess that the chances of that are about 1% that he even connects.
If you can't catch an arrow, you can't slash it either.
Oh, and your comparison of it to baseball would be spot-on, but you neglected to mention that the "ball" is moving 4 times faster than a baseball, the arrow's much smaller in a cross-section than a baseball, the sword is much narrower than a baseball bat, and the ball's heading straight towards you, not at your side.
If you can't catch an arrow, you can't slash it either.
Oh, and your comparison of it to baseball would be spot-on, but you neglected to mention that the "ball" is moving 4 times faster than a baseball, the arrow's much smaller in a cross-section than a baseball, the sword is much narrower than a baseball bat, and the ball's heading straight towards you, not at your side.
The Mercenary said:
Arrow cutting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfA0TzmYRww
I'm not saying it was a common skill, but it's neither secret ninja magic. The old dude is not the best swordsman who ever walked the earth.
EDIT: Watch that too (same dude):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBNOmcOmD1w
butscrew said:
Talking about something you don't know is silly, for sure. What about niten ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyoho_Niten_Ichi-ryu This is something real.
Stupid and innacurate. With a wooden saya (scabbard), forget it. And on the other hand, if you have a steel saya you surely wear a tachi, so again forget the blocking scabbard idea.
True, but we don't talk about the average samurai here. And this is far away from a battle situation.
Niten Ichi Ryu was founded by Miyamoto Musashi, who
1. Got it developed 40 years after the Sengoku Jidai era,
2. There were very few who could master it, 'cause Musashi was a friggin' genius.
Samurai used their scabbards for parry, but rarely and not in battle.
And yes, the average samurai did better to hump the shoulders and prey against arrows.
But there were many above average skilled samurai, because at the time battling was their main task.
And if you do battles from age 15, you'll get good in it or you die.
1. Got it developed 40 years after the Sengoku Jidai era,
2. There were very few who could master it, 'cause Musashi was a friggin' genius.
Samurai used their scabbards for parry, but rarely and not in battle.
And yes, the average samurai did better to hump the shoulders and prey against arrows.
But there were many above average skilled samurai, because at the time battling was their main task.
And if you do battles from age 15, you'll get good in it or you die.
butscrew
Sergeant Knight at Arms
The scabbard parrying is not stupid and inaccurate, I was told it by a Kendo Instructor who has been practicing Kendo for 35 years. Thats a good 12 years longer then I have been alive.
I live in Japan and hence I don't need to rely on the wikipedia (while useful, info from this doesn't count as it is made up by just anyone if you study history you should know this), I just ask the history teachers or read the history textbooks at the schools. Sure sometimes it gets hard to read them but I have an awesome electronic dictionary now that gets me through the kanji.
If a wooden shield could stop a katana a wooden scabbard could parry a sword just like the Jitte, which was why the scabbard was used to parry it was an improvised jitte. I bet Musashi himself used his scabbard sometimes.
I live in Japan and hence I don't need to rely on the wikipedia (while useful, info from this doesn't count as it is made up by just anyone if you study history you should know this), I just ask the history teachers or read the history textbooks at the schools. Sure sometimes it gets hard to read them but I have an awesome electronic dictionary now that gets me through the kanji.
If a wooden shield could stop a katana a wooden scabbard could parry a sword just like the Jitte, which was why the scabbard was used to parry it was an improvised jitte. I bet Musashi himself used his scabbard sometimes.
1. One point for you there. So forgot the wakizashi blocking idea.
[Out of subject] 2. He discovered it by himself so he was a freaking genius, yeah. But later Niten techniques were taught in some samurai schools.
Then I quote myself earlier on this page:
I'm glad we have the same idea about saya parrying.
For me a samurai thrusted two things against arrows :
-the first line of ashigarus;
-his armor
[Out of subject] 2. He discovered it by himself so he was a freaking genius, yeah. But later Niten techniques were taught in some samurai schools.
Then I quote myself earlier on this page:
[/Out of subject]
I'm glad we have the same idea about saya parrying.
For me a samurai thrusted two things against arrows :
-the first line of ashigarus;
-his armor
butscrew said:
Kendo is a sport, no more a martial art. Trust a iaijutsuka, you don't want to parry with your wooden saya (unless you want to change it). There's no comparaison between a shield (heavy and plain) and a saya (you know, the thin piece of wood with a hole on all the length).
Of course you can use it in a desperate case, but that's all.
I don't know if you have any idea of what a tachi looks like, but don't try to use its saya
(the tachi saya is hung on the belt...)shalictar
I practice kendo.
On the arrow blocking...
I saw a video with a guy with a naginata he blocked three or so near consecutively by spinning it, was pretty cool.
A weapon id like to see put into this mod soon is a kanabo.
Mod News
butscrew's yari and been implemented into the game although the specular shader is being a jackass..
and...
due to balance issues im going to have to take out one of the smaller factions and replace the other.
On the arrow blocking...
I saw a video with a guy with a naginata he blocked three or so near consecutively by spinning it, was pretty cool.
A weapon id like to see put into this mod soon is a kanabo.
Mod News
butscrew's yari and been implemented into the game although the specular shader is being a jackass..
and...
due to balance issues im going to have to take out one of the smaller factions and replace the other.
shalictar
was thinking about it, most definately will.
maybe even by the beta
maybe even by the beta
Betoxico
Sergeant
I have return!! (McArthur-Terminator quote)
Freaking tests and projects!!
I have seen the models you fellows send me...one word...HELL YEAHHH!!! (two words???)
Cutting arrows??? In the middle of a battlefield???? That's weird, and..almost magic-dungeons&dragons-skill.....
I have been practicing dodging arrows on horse, and with some high atletism skill...on foot.
Well...I am just waiting for the beta!!
Saludos!!
Freaking tests and projects!!
I have seen the models you fellows send me...one word...HELL YEAHHH!!!
(two words???)Cutting arrows??? In the middle of a battlefield???? That's weird, and..almost magic-dungeons&dragons-skill.....
I have been practicing dodging arrows on horse, and with some high atletism skill...on foot.
Well...I am just waiting for the beta!!
Saludos!!
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