Footman / throwing build for SP advice

[piotras]

Hi!

There's a lot of discussion about the fact that non-calvary armies are much harder in MBW and there are many valid reasons for it. But I think it still might be possible (and fun!) to go on like that with superior tactics and choosing the right troops and equipment.

So I think about going for a mix of rhodock and nord armies for their spears, crossbows and shields/thrown. Give all my companions a xbow/shield+1-hander mix. Try to always be on the defence if possible, choose terrain like rivers and forests, turtle and shower with bolts from the start.

Normally I would go for a horse archer type with a 2-handed/lance, but this time I think of going seriously into thrown weapons to try something different (I love the projectile mechanics in the game!). Maybe even using a heavy throwing axe as my primary 1-hand weapon (nice damage and speed, but only 53 reach apparently!) which would allow me to bring more axes into the fight and a polearm/2-handed for dealing with calvary and troops at a distance. I would of course go heavily into athletics, hp, shield.

Has anyone tried playing like this? What's a good polearm/2-handed for dealing with calvary - the longest one?

Are there any useful mods for enhancing that sort of gameplay?

 

[Ivan Khan]

If you do use thrown weapons, use a pre-battle orders mod. Infantry are vulnerable when throwing. I figured this was why my Nord high end troops were dying so easily. Modded the thrown weapons out and they are tanks.


I tried building my character as a thrower, but was disappointed. They do not have much accuracy and range. I found I rarely used more than 1-2 before going in with melee, so more than one bag was a waste. I went with Balanced Jarids. Only exception was in siege defense were I would sit to the side of the ladder/tower, then I would take four bags (you can always pick up weapons and shield from the dead).


As for pole weapon against cavalry:

I liked the Great Long Axe. Length is 127 so it has reach for killing riders, and is also good killing foot.

I also had good luck with the longer hafted blade of the Khergits (not as good against foot though).

I have been told the Awlpike works well if you want a pointy weapon, because you are using a mod that allows bracing (Never played it enough to recommend it, but it appeared to work well).


I ended up using the Great Long Axe, Warbow, Large bag of Khergit Arrows, and  Huscarl Shield. I would also keep a couple of extra bags of arrows, one hand waraxe and flanged mace around when needed. Arrows are more accurate and have more range than thrown weapons, also the bags are bigger. Only advantage of thrown weapons is throwing on the run, which is not very effective.


As for your all infantry build, I think you have a good start. Rhod spearmen are great against cavalry, if they stay together. You can never go wrong with Rhod crossbowmen.

I think nord troops lack of long weapons make them poor choice against cavalry. Vaegir or Swad elite infantry might be a better choice for melee troops that can hold up to cavalry better.

I would also suggest adding some bows to the mix. They would give you the speeder punch I think you thought thrown weapons might give. Sarr Master Archer is the fastest, Vaegir Marksmen hit the hardest, and Nord Veteran Archers have melee skill. I like the Nord Vets even though they are the slowest firing as they have the best armor and melee skill, I find they fire fast enough to augment my crossbowmen when you have enough of them .


As for mods, Pre-Battle Orders & Deployment is a must. Otherwise you can do it in most mods, just a little tougher.


As for your companions, they will need longer weapons too. One hand weapons are for mounted troops if you ask me. You need a weapon length of about 110 to fight cavalry on foot. best if it has thrust damage as well as swing. Too long though and it is hard to fight in melee with infantry, so best not to be longer than 130. 2-h swords, Long axes, and the bec de corbin all work.  You could give them shields, but I find if they are fighters and can spare the points to put into power draw that offense with two bags of arrows is better protection.

 

[Alfredthegreat]

Weapons

Throwing weapons could be used to defend against light cavalry. Since the horses are unarmored, about 2 hits to the head will do it. For throwing I recommend Jarids, they have the longest range and have the best damage. Against heavy cavalry I recommend Jarids, against light Javelins could do, since javelins and jarids all take about 2 hits to kill a horse.

      Aim for the riders if they are unshielded, aim for the horse if they have a shield. The axes are good at damaging but the range is very effective against riders. The throwing axe are just too short of range. The darts and are many, but their damage and range is just not enough to make up for their numbers. As for knifes and daggers, don't use them. You can't hit anyone with them and they will not do you good if you hit them.

      For the weapon types I suggest using 2 packs of Jarids, or javelins, a shield(To protect you against couched lances). And a polearm or axe. The two handed axe are good, or a bardiche. If you want a polearm that can do the damage and make up for the range then the Glaive is the one for you. The pikes are good for stopping cavalry, but however, they don't have the power to quickly kill the horse or the rider.

Troops

      Infantry are the most important troop for a all foot army, I suggest getting a few cavalry. The nord huscarl is the best infantry, but they are often weak to cavalry, as they don't have any good anti cavalry stuff other than throwing axes. Rhodok sergeants are the good elite. their inferior counterparts will also do fine. The swadian also have a good polearm, the awlpike. The vaegir have the bardiche, but it is short and not very effective against a straight lance charge. The sarranids have the guard, lacks in armor, shield, anti-cavalry weapon. their jarids are the saving weapon for them.
      Archers's weakness is calvary, especially heavy ones. But given enough time they can serious weaken the cavalry. The Rhodok crossbowmen hardest hitting, but their slow reload time is their weakness, the sarrranid is the fastest, but they will quickly run out of arrows. the Vaegir deals the second most damage, and the second fastest. The nord is capable of 1 v 1 most dismounted cavalry. but they all has to be protected by infantry, cavalry, or terrain.

      Tactics.

Formations

      An all out foot army needs to have good tactics to take out a large cavalry force. First of all is Formations. Formations are very important. The infantry needs to be in good formations, in which case a cluster. which can cluster an cavalry or groups of them. the archers will need to be in a firing line.

Terrain
      Terrain is very Important for a foot army, usaully the higher ground is better. If there is only one good high ground place, you choose wether to put your archers up or your infantry. If you put your infantry up there, then the cavalry will be less effective. If you choose to bring your archers up there, then your archers can shoot at the cavalry while they are fightings.
Flankings

      Flankings the cavalry is a good stratagy. With archers you can put them behind the main fighting, and they will shoot at the enemy while their backs are turned. with Infantry, I suggest you put infantry into two groups. I say rhodok sergeants in front and nord huscarls for flank. they will encircle the enemy and decimate them.
Use of troops.

Using the troops to what they are best for. For example, every troop has their strength and weakness, one is better at this task and one is worse at this. For the huscarl, they are not good for straight charge. Against cavalry they are better for the flanking force. Same goes for the veagir guards. While the rhodok and swadians, they are good to stand against straight frontal charge. the sarranid guards are good for skirmishing. while they are not the most effective fighters or anti cavalry, they could be on a near hill for throwing javelins at the enemy to weaken them. Archers, if you believe in the infantry holding firm, you should use the vaegir, rhodok and sarranids. With the swadians as a exception. however, if you lack infantry and are fearing of a attack by the cavalry on your archers, then, you should use the nord veteran archers or the rhodok sharpshooter.

Splitting the troops.
        In vanilla warband there are 3 troop groups, infantry cavalry, and archers. however, for tactics, I would suggest you divide the infantry into 2 more groups. pikes, and heavy. the heavy infantry are good for straight attack when the cavalry has lost their momentum. when they are dehorsed or slowed.
Against other factions
there are different factions and different fight style, and some of them will require you using your small amount of cavalry(If you have them) to secure victory.

Swadia
      swadia is know for the best cavalry. But I wouldn't count them much as a threat, because they don't have the number of cavalry to overun your forces, most of them have around 10 out of 100. and about 2 to 5 are knights. As for their infantry, the swadian sergeant is decent, but they don't have enough of them to do serious damage. their ranged are not a big threat

Nords
    The nords are not a large threat to your force, because your combinations of infantry and archers can probably take them on.
Rhodoks
      the Rhodoks do not have the best infantry, but they are the second best. Again, since they do not have any cavalry and are not the best attackers, the infantry is not much worried. The crossbowmen are the best, so beware, because not even the best troop can take 50 bolts in their shield.

Vaegirs
      The vaegirs are know for their good archer. the vaegirs like swadia, lack the amount of cavalry, and their cavalry have little shields, which are good for archers and sarranid guards. they tend to have slightly more cav than swadia. their infantry are vulnerable to your archers, and their archers are the threat, but the few cavalry can kill their archers before they can shoot very good.

Khergits
      The Khergits are almost cavalry only. however, most of their cavalry are a nuisense, only tier 2 or 3. But they do have a large amount of lancers, which tend to be in larger numbers than the other elite cavalry. the horse archers will in time start to pick off one by one. Because of the AI in warband, the archers will not shoot in front of the moving horse archer, so companion cavalry with coursers is the best way to take the horsearchers.
Sarranid
      The sarranid are a large threat. they have the second best cavalry, but most lords of 100 tend to have around 10 to 20 of them. they also have a large amount of sarranid master archers. dealing with the cavalry is going to be a pain. Archers will be good because some of the mamelukes don't use shields. Some Jarid throwers are also good for weakening Mamelukes, usaully those Mamelukes decimate infantry when met, so good polearms are required, and flanking is good to take them out. After that, with the support of your archers, your infantry can take them on from there.

Mods
For mods i recommend diplomacy, spear bracing, and pre-battle planning. the deathcam mod is also good for  if you get knocked out, the battle won't be over. As for bigger mods, Floris basic is good, it adds new items, spears doing more to horses, and other stuff. Many other mods like floris expanded, clash of kings, brytenwalda, and others have the thing needed for more effective infantry.

Good luck with that

 

[piotras]

Thanks for quality replies! Much appreciated!

I'm early on but I absolutely love it. Harder, much more defensive, involves more strategy and you progress slower (which is actually a good thing). However, makes the game much more interesting if you're bored with the typical mounted gameplay.

From roleplay perspective I go for a viking type build around the use of axes - thrown, long war axe or pole axe. I fully agree that axes are not the best thrown weapons, however they are the only thrown weapons that can swing with a shield in melee mode making them a bit better if you don't take typical one hander (I sometimes go for 3x thrown axes + shield - had some absolutely epic moments using them both as range or melee weapons or just fighting with whatever I picked up).

I decided to go for the native with some armors and weapon addons with orders and deployment mod and the features included are absolutely great for a footman army (spear bracing, splitting units, formations). I also went for the option of switching off companion complains to have a bigger party of companions.

I've never done that before, but I guess it makes perfect sense here because a) I need to prepare for heavier losses than I'm used to so having stronger non-killable units will help balance out lack of proper calvary (personal thing, but I hate having too many losses, very often I reply fights if too many elite units drop dead...) and b) more companions equals to more 'training' skill stacking which in turn allows for quicker troop advancement. Feels a bit like cheating, but on the other hand fighting on foot is a much harder endeavour.

Also, from role-play perspective having so many companions is a blast - I want to give them all different armours and weapons to make them stand out from the crowd (you tend to fight much more arm in arm with your companions as a footman). I've divided them roughly into three divisions which correlate with my current troop set up (a small team of 40 for now):

- 2-handers + shield/throwing
They tend to be the frontline of my shieldwalls with the huscarls defending the back lines from missiles and killing off the approaching footman with their thrown weapons.

The added benefit of it is that they pepper the battlefield with throw weapons. Since I'm going for a throw build I very often refill my supplies of throwing weapons in-between kills which make for some absolutely epic moments. When the enemy is close enough they break the formation and charge with they 2-handers.

- polearms + shield/1-hander
For now they support the 2-handed team, but later on and when I go on fighting lords and their calvary they will be part of my rhodock sergeants division. For now they use glaives and such but latter on I want them to go for poleaxes (role play reasons ) Given that they will end up with a very long polearm I will also train them with shields and 1-handers so they can defend themselves when surrounded and when attacking a stronghold. 

- archers + 2-handers
For now they are part of my rhodock sharpshooter division, but later on I want to put them on horses together with a few khergit horse archers. I don't want to have calvary in a normal sense, but I'll experiment with having a mobile group of 5-10 riders half-way between my and the enemy armies who will skirmish/harass the approaching calvary and disrupt their charge  I played a lot as a khergit horse archer and I find that to be a very successful way of breaking up an enemy charge and messing up with enemy formations. I can always order them to come back if I want to shift the fight back to my infantry divisions.

Also, it's good to have some calvary to finish off the fleeing types and for support. I currently have a few mounted slavers that I use temporarily while my khergit plan is in the works.

In general - fully recommend that sort of game play! Will see where it takes me. Once again thanks for good advice.