Fixed spear issue, when?

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One of the niggling thoughts I have is that the basic BL system is just busted and can't simulate combat that's realistic or fun. Simple things like the fact that shields turn into useless holograms the minute you lift up RMB make me worry that there's no amount of tweaking that will un-s*** this game. I worry that combat that makes even a vague amount of sense won't be possible without an engine overhaul.
Yes I totally agree. The way shields work in video games in general is not ideal. I've always advocated that shields should work in the same way in melee as they currently work against ranged attacks in the game, that is they should always block attacks in their idle position if their hitbox happen to intercept an incoming attack, but active parries should be directional only. In this way, having a large shield equipped will always keep you safe from cuts coming from your left, and sometimes thrusts coming at you if you angled your character correctly, but to parry downward cuts and cuts from your right you still have to directional parry like you would when parrying with a weapon.

If I was the director of Taleworlds i'd also make attack and parry directions diagonal instead of up down left right, so you can throw left and right Oberhau and Unterhau, with an additional button for thrusts that work just like cuts, launched from the 4 diagonal directions in a point forward guard position (Left and right Ochs and Pflug). These point forward guard positions when held in place should also able to parry cuts attacking the same quadrant in medium distance, but not in face hugging distance. So for example your right Oberhau will be intercepted by my left Ochs guard. This would make thrusts sound OP, but cuts have their own advantages in that they have wider arc of attack so are more likely to hit something, whereas thrusts have to be aimed and get stuck when launched from face hugging distance.

Opposing cuts should clash, with the later launched cut defeating the earlier launched one. So in plain words my right Oberhau should be defeated by your right Oberhau if you launched yours a split second later than I launched mine. This is the basic principle behind Zornhau. Opposing thrusts should do the same, and this is known as Inquartarta in rapier fencing. You might have noticed the clash mechanic is already in the game in the form of chamber blocks, but the devs got it wrong and made it so that my left swing gets defeated by your right swing and vice versa, when in reality this almost never happens.

In addition thrust animations upon completion should stay in the extended longpoint position indefinitely, until the player clicks the attack or parry button to end the animation, this is to give the player time to walk a fully extended thrust into the opponent. This is called Flèche in epee, and is also used widely in hema tournaments. This will also make cataphract style two handed lance more viable than they currently are in the game. This position is also very vulnerable to being parried and when parried takes a long time to recover from.

Anyways I'm convinced we'll never get proper fencing mechanics in pc and console based video games because controller and mouse & keyboard control are both too limiting for the average player who simply won't have time to react to incoming attack using mouse and keyboard at the same speed they can react when physically holding a sword. But I've heard some of the VR games do have great sword fighting simulation, like Blade and Sorcery for example.
 
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because they are cheap and make even badly trained milia capable to at least stand there.
Not only that spears are efficient as you said, it's a really damn good weapon. Reach is extremely important in a fight, and this is rarely mentioned for some reason. When your opponent has a longer reach, you're at a huge disadvantage. Swordsmen in a duel don't just stare at each other or gathering their spirit. They're gauging distance, and thinking of a way to get in range without getting stabbed back. Almost all martial arts put a lot of focus in footwork precisely for this reason.

Spears also have the advantage of leverage, which means your point can move faster than any sword tip. This makes a spear thrust very hard to parry. Its main weakness is when your opponent gets past your spear point (which is hard to do). That's when you pull your your sidearm like a sword or an axe, for close-ranged combat.
 
Spears also have the advantage of leverage, which means your point can move faster than any sword tip. This makes a spear thrust very hard to parry. Its main weakness is when your opponent gets past your spear point (which is hard to do). That's when you pull your your sidearm like a sword or an axe, for close-ranged combat.
I just choke up on the spear.
 
Yes I totally agree. The way shields work in video games in general is not ideal. I've always advocated that shields should work in the same way in melee as they currently work against ranged attacks in the game, that is they should always block attacks in their idle position if their hitbox happen to intercept an incoming attack, but active parries should be directional only. In this way, having a large shield equipped will always keep you safe from cuts coming from your left, and sometimes thrusts coming at you if you angled your character correctly, but to parry downward cuts and cuts from your right you still have to directional parry like you would when parrying with a weapon.

If I was the director of Taleworlds i'd also make attack and parry directions diagonal instead of up down left right, so you can throw left and right Oberhau and Unterhau, with an additional button for thrusts that work just like cuts, launched from the 4 diagonal directions in a point forward guard position (Left and right Ochs and Pflug). These point forward guard positions when held in place should also able to parry cuts attacking the same quadrant in medium distance, but not in face hugging distance. So for example your right Oberhau will be intercepted by my left Ochs guard. This would make thrusts sound OP, but cuts have their own advantages in that they have wider arc of attack so are more likely to hit something, whereas thrusts have to be aimed and get stuck when launched from face hugging distance.

Opposing cuts should clash, with the later launched cut defeating the earlier launched one. So in plain words my right Oberhau should be defeated by your right Oberhau if you launched yours a split second later than I launched mine. This is the basic principle behind Zornhau. Opposing thrusts should do the same, and this is known as Inquartarta in rapier fencing. You might have noticed the clash mechanic is already in the game in the form of chamber blocks, but the devs got it wrong and made it so that my left swing gets defeated by your right swing and vice versa, when in reality this almost never happens.

In addition thrust animations upon completion should stay in the extended longpoint position indefinitely, until the player clicks the attack or parry button to end the animation, this is to give the player time to walk a fully extended thrust into the opponent. This is called Flèche in epee, and is also used widely in hema tournaments. This will also make cataphract style two handed lance more viable than they currently are in the game. This position is also very vulnerable to being parried and when parried takes a long time to recover from.

Anyways I'm convinced we'll never get proper fencing mechanics in pc and console based video games because controller and mouse & keyboard control are both too limiting for the average player who simply won't have time to react to incoming attack using mouse and keyboard at the same speed they can react when physically holding a sword. But I've heard some of the VR games do have great sword fighting simulation, like Blade and Sorcery for example.
Thanks! That really does flesh things out a bit for me.

I'm sure it likewise isn't quite realistic but I really enjoyed the 5-pointed-star combat in KCD which relied as much on timing as attack direction and blocks. The combos were a decent game mechanic, too. And, while people hate stamina bars, there is a real limit to how much you can simulate without a away to quantify physical exhaustion - let alone discipline in formations.

I'm curious about your take on that.
 
weapon collision in general should be looked at, and when it does, the spear problem might get fixed along with it.
right now if you stand next to a castle wall and try to swing towards an enemy, your attack is often going to be interrupted by the wall.
if you have friendly troops following behind you and you try to swing, your attack is often going to be interrupted by your troops.
some level of realism is nice but this behavior is so over-tweaked that its more petulant than fun, and it makes me want to avoid fighting on the walls or fighting alongside friendly troops
 
I'm sure it likewise isn't quite realistic but I really enjoyed the 5-pointed-star combat in KCD which relied as much on timing as attack direction and blocks. The combos were a decent game mechanic, too. And, while people hate stamina bars, there is a real limit to how much you can simulate without a away to quantify physical exhaustion - let alone discipline in formations.
KCD felt like a wasted opportunity. The combat animations looked the part at the first glance and they got the cut directions right. Thats all it has unfortunately. The two thrusts are launched from weird low fenestra positions, and these are the only thrusts you can do. Thrusts don't clash and fenestra aren't really parrying guard positions either, so point on line sword play is basically non existent and it's all about the cuts. The master cuts in the game are nothing like the real life meisterhau so ultimately it felt like a fancy Street Fighter game where memorising the input is more important than logic. The target locking was the final straw that broke it for me.

Basically you can tell the devs spent lots of time recording fencing footage from 1st person view, but they ultimately don't understand fencing.. either that or they decided to sacrifice realism for gamepay design. The weird low fenestra thrusts for example are probably designed for player to be able to see them easily in first person view. Proper thrust guards like Pflug and Ochs might be too low and too high to show properly in first person view camera.

I heard Hellish Quart has good simulation of fening. Might check that out someday.
 
weapon collision in general should be looked at, and when it does, the spear problem might get fixed along with it.
spear/pike' current facing problems from my eyes:

pommel still in development™
too short (should be able to switch length)
too prediable with only 2 attack angle
too prediable with the animation
too little damage
too high damages (all other weapon)
too slow release
too slow to start deal damage
too focused on speed modifier
too strict turn cap while swing weapon no turn cap
no stun
no knockback
no chain attack
no crush through
character not placing their shield on front at all time
character not aligned with camera
character accelerate too fast
character out of combat movement speed too fast
charactor combat movement speed too fast
charactor changes move direction speed too fast
armour are useless against cut (nullifly ap weapon)
should integrate throwning spear into every spear
ai too stupid

just to name a few


so yeah for me i really don't see fixing collision or anything alone could do real help for spear but still any positive changes are still better than the E-SPORT dream that stucked in TW's brain
 
I seriously wish they would add a phalanx formation that FORCES polearms to be used while the formation is enabled OR force them to used polearms while in shield wall. then there is the fact that polearms are still kind of use less in regards to pikes. Pike formations should almost be unstoppable from the front, just look what the Romans wrote about facing them in battle. Looking at the medieval versions like the Flemish, Swiss, and Lansknechts they changed the face of medieval battlefields.

I always wanted to run a mercenary pike formation, but in this game it is a no go as pikemen are most likely the worst unit in the game.

How does this get fixed?

  • pikes being able to be used in close formations with multiple ranks
  • pike collision - damage for running into pikes determined by speed

Spearwall formation - this would be just regular spear units

  • fights with 2 ranks with the second rank using the overhand strike
This is where I would start, hopefully TW will fix this ASAP as the current system is not that great. I do like shieldwall though and they have made some nice improvements to that. Even though it suck looks epic as hell when the shieldwall is slow marching up to melee.
 
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I heard Hellish Quart has good simulation of fening. Might check that out someday.
I have read you and I see that you practice or have practiced Hema and you know what you are talking about. Hellish Quart despite being a truly EA title and still has some things to be polished, is a game that you will like.

I personally recommend it to you.
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I seriously wish they would add a phalanx formation that FORCES polearms to be used while the formation is enabled OR force them to used polearms while in shield wall. then there is the fact that polearms are still kind of use less in regards to pikes. Pike formations should almost be unstoppable from the front, just look what the Romans wrote about facing them in battle. Looking at the medieval versions like the Flemish, Swiss, and Lansknechts they changed the face of medieval battlefields.

I always wanted to run a mercenary pike formation, but in this game it is a no go as pikemen are most likely the worst unit in the game.

How does this get fixed?

  • pikes being able to be used in close formations with multiple ranks
  • pike collision - damage for running into pikes determined by speed

Spearwall formation - this would be just regular spear units

  • fights with 2 ranks with the second rank using the overhand strike
This is where I would start, hopefully TW will fix this ASAP as the current system is not that great. I do like shieldwall though and they have made some nice improvements to that. Even though it suck looks epic as hell when the shieldwall is slow marching up to melee.
Such a change would be a great addition to the game at this point in time. The problem... once again, is that this kind of AI behaviour is hardcoded and even if you wanted to mod/tweak/change it, you couldn't do it now. +info here
 
Basically you can tell the devs spent lots of time recording fencing footage from 1st person view, but they ultimately don't understand fencing.. either that or they decided to sacrifice realism for gamepay design. The weird low fenestra thrusts for example are probably designed for player to be able to see them easily in first person view. Proper thrust guards like Pflug and Ochs might be too low and too high to show properly in first person view camera.
Maybe they'll get it better with KCD2? I don't imagine anyone on the team could have anticipated the whirlwind success it became and it's a lot easier to
How does this get fixed?
By playing a different game. As @Terco_Viejo alluded to, the suckage on the part of the infantry AI is intentional and is hard-coded in.

This is a snippet from a dev's comment nearly two years ago (and if you click the link you can see Terco in the same thread asking for better siege AI and a focus-fire command - neither of which we have today).
About infantry vs Cav. We are still trying to find the right balance. We did have -at one- point unbreakable wall of spears and quickly decided to make the infantry act more foolish. Otherwise Cav vs Inf is not fun at all. In real life no Cav formation charges directly to the infantry. They did get into charge numerous times just to turn back at the last moment. It was a battle of nerves. The infantry "died" many times before finally that last cav charge is real this time. (The cav charge becomes real when the cav commander decides the inf formation has lost its nerve and about to break.) since we cannot simulate this in the game it is somewhat OK to make inf act a bit goofy.

bots are too op, i was killed once when 1x1000 them please nerf and make me able to cut through millions of bots at the same time otherwise i'll call your mom mean things.
YES! OK stop me if this sounds too original... how about they change the story so we get to play as a Chosen One with incredible abilities? Also we get really cool spiky hair and like a 6-foot sword that can slice open a tank? And we fight through hordes of baddies until we get to a final boss who has like 10,000 HP and an EVEN BIGGER SWORD?

Just remember that it's not realistic if any weapon is more useful than a really big sword in any situation because swords are expensive. That's the same reason why dudes on horses instantly win against dudes on foot. Also any armor without plates and STRAPS and BUCKLES is trash.
 
Long polearms need to have some sort of hitbox / physics / weight so they can push enemies or so they can be pushed away by nemy weapons.
 
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