Dev Blog 17/01/19

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[IMG]https://www.taleworlds.com/Images/News/blog_post_73_taleworldswebsite.jpg[/IMG] Over the course of the past few months, one of the most commented features that we have shown in this dev blog is the use of siege engines when someone is trying to take a castle by storm -- but we didn't really go into much detail about how they work. In this week's entry of our blog, we talk with Bahar Sevket, one of our gameplay programmers, who is currently working on new mechanics for that particular area of the game and can give us some interesting insights on how siege engines will be integrated into Mount & Blade II: Bannerlord. Read more at: https://www.taleworlds.com/en/Games/Bannerlord/Blog/93
 

John the Roleplayer

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I think there is a lot of exaggeration going on here. The only thing they announced was, that there will be preloaded lists for the order in which siege engines are built. Now it sounds as if some people think that sieges will be auto-resolved.

We won't be able to breach walls in the scene, yes, but that wouldn't make much sense, or be any fun, would it? Large trebuchets could take the better part of an hour, or more, to load, and would be able to set up at a (mostly) safe distance from the castle. That means operating them is a lot of exhausting work, going on for days, with no real action all the while. Tunnelling is possibly worse. I feel it would be a dreadful chore to do any of that personally in a scene. Much better to resolve that tedious part on the campaign map in compressed time. And loosing some men to attrition during that time is perfectly reasonable. You are laying siege to a castle. That is bloody business, there will be losses, what do you expect?

At the same time, all the exciting stuff will still be there. There will be dramatic assaults, with (smaller) siege engines on both sides firing away, battering rams, ladders, siege towers, all of which can be personally used by the player character. This is where all the action and drama take place, and where it's fun to play out events in a real time scene.

I think their design choices here are perfectly justified. And so I'm confident that the design of the siege engine construction will be equally good, and won't limit player interaction. After all, how many possibilities are there really? You (A) build ladders and rams first if you want to attack as soon as you can, and possibly wait for ballistae and a siege tower if you want support while assaulting. Or (B) you build mangonels (maybe also tunnels and trebuchets) first and assault gear later, if you want to bombard and breach the walls before attacking. And maybe (C) a balanced selection, when starving the place, to keep the defenders unclear of your intentions, and also "just in case".
 

John the Roleplayer

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Yes, but including the option to play every part of the siege in a scene, including preliminary bombardment as you suggested, would require a lot of work, resources, possibly even compromises in castle design detrimental to other aspects, for something that works much better on the strategic level.

FBohler said:
[...]
6) If you choose the latter, BAM, there's a scene to actually PLAY and destroy walls, [...]

 

DtheHun

Sergeant Knight
M&BWB
Now it sounds as if some people think that sieges will be auto-resolved.

Exactly that's my fear. Having some pre-defined options and counter options, seeing cute siege engine map icons in work does not eases that fealing.

Much better to resolve that tedious part on the campaign map in compressed time. And loosing some men to attrition during that time is perfectly reasonable. You are laying siege to a castle. That is bloody business, there will be losses, what do you expect?

I ask you, if the siege waiting time were so empty and immersion breaking in Warband, why no options like this have become poular in a decade of modding? It's technically not challenge to make a new presentation and play - How they said? Rock-paper-scissors? - minigame for the heads of your soilders. I asssume, because most M&B players didn't like to lose their party members behind the curtains.

There will be dramatic assaults, with (smaller) siege engines on both sides firing away, battering rams, ladders, siege towers, all of which can be personally used by the player character. This is where all the action and drama take place, and where it's fun to play out events in a real time scene.

I see new scene objects and spectacular effects. It surely will be choreographed dramatically, a bit arcade factor is good for popularity. And I have never asked when, because I knew that making the sieges in in M&B style takes a lot of time and effort. I don't say that I'm against a graphical update and the merging of popular mod functions, but in this light it's allready a hell of a lot time for that.
 
Hopefully Bannerlord’s ai will surprise us and sally out to try and destroy our siege engines before we’ve fully constructed them.  :grin:
 

John the Roleplayer

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
DtheHun said:
[...]
I ask you, if the siege waiting time were so empty and immersion breaking in Warband, why no options like this have become poular in a decade of modding? It's technically not challenge to make a new presentation and play - How they said? Rock-paper-scissors? - minigame for the heads of your soilders. I asssume, because most M&B players didn't like to lose their party members behind the curtains.

I understand that it can feel annoying to lose troops without a chance to save them. But even on the battlefield, being personally among your men, you may not get that chance. There are also other, similar functions in Bannerlord, like attrition in hostile environment. I think you have to see these elements in the context of Bannerlord and its recruitment system, where you have increased access to more and higher level troops over time, not in that of Warband.

DtheHun said:
[...] I don't say that I'm against a graphical update and the merging of popular mod functions [...]

I'm not sure what mod functions you mean, but if you think that's all they have done, I'll refer you to the following video from 2016, maybe not everyone has seen it.


Now add to that all the improvements done since then.
 

DtheHun

Sergeant Knight
M&BWB
John C said:
Now add to that all the improvements done since then.

One question. Could you see that trebuchet icon at 0:21. It was meant to be usable, "accidentally" there's 0 amount was made before the battle.

Two years later... Not a preset siege gameplay in the Con. Summarize that.

polishing != chopping
 

John the Roleplayer

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
DtheHun said:
John C said:
Now add to that all the improvements done since then.

One question. Could you see that trebuchet icon at 0:21. It was meant to be usable, "accidentally" there's 0 amount was made before the battle.

Two years later... Not a preset siege gameplay in the Con. Summarize that.

polishing != chopping

So there wasn't a trebuchet in this video. That doesn't mean they won't be in the game.

Link to the siege engine dev blog

As of March of 2018 they were still included. What makes you think they aren't anymore?
 
I was almost certain that we got it confirmed trebuchets would be exclusively used for overworld bombarding, but the AoE damage mentioned in siege engines blog counters that pretty clearly.

Anyway, I think you're clinging to the presets too much, we saw in the demos that amount of slots for siege engines is rather limited (some of them are just ram/siege tower Y/N), so it basically boils down to ranged weapons (and in that case I assume it's mainly a choice between whether you want to try and create a breach before assault or not). Imo, the presets are just QoL improvement to the system that never was as intricate or complicated as we could hope for.
 

DtheHun

Sergeant Knight
M&BWB
John C said:
As of March of 2018 they were still included. What makes you think they aren't anymore?

Of course from you Sir!

John C said:
At the same time, all the exciting stuff will still be there. There will be dramatic assaults, with (smaller) siege engines on both sides firing away, battering rams, ladders, siege towers, all of which can be personally used by the player character. This is where all the action and drama take place, and where it's fun to play out events in a real time scene.

Or did you talk about mini-trebutchets there?

And what the hell would they do in the siege scene other than ruining the walls, and making new paths for the infantry? For that AoE damage those mangonels are more than enough.

And if they will be still be there, and capable to do their job, then why should I start in a ruined scene after that siege preparation mobile-game the way you said:

John C said:
We won't be able to breach walls in the scene, yes, but that wouldn't make much sense, or be any fun, would it? Large trebuchets could take the better part of an hour, or more, to load, and would be able to set up at a (mostly) safe distance from the castle. That means operating them is a lot of exhausting work, going on for days, with no real action all the while. Tunnelling is possibly worse. I feel it would be a dreadful chore to do any of that personally in a scene. Much better to resolve that tedious part on the campaign map in compressed time.
 

John the Roleplayer

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
DtheHun said:
John C said:
At the same time, all the exciting stuff will still be there. There will be dramatic assaults, with (smaller) siege engines on both sides firing away, battering rams, ladders, siege towers, all of which can be personally used by the player character. This is where all the action and drama take place, and where it's fun to play out events in a real time scene.

Or did you talk about mini-trebutchets there?

Yes, I did. About mangonels and smaller trebuchets. The one from the siege engine dev blog is among smaller ones. Compare it for instance to this one:

800px-Nykøbing_Falster_-_kastemaskine%2C_en_blide.jpg

DtheHun said:
And what the hell would they do in the siege scene other than ruining the walls, and making new paths for the infantry?[...]

They would be supposed to destroy crenelations, to deprive the defender of cover for ballistae and archers. Mangonels can do that too, but maybe not as effectively against higher level castles. Having trebuchets destroy entire walls would take far too long to be believably possible during an assault.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Allow me the parenthesis buddies...but....

46yqxBB.jpg


Duh_TaleWorlds have you arrived in Ankara yet? We need love now and surely after the publications in next devblog. Will we have our dose of love next Thursday around here?

o2CCKQJ.jpg
 

DtheHun

Sergeant Knight
M&BWB
Summarizing it, you hope for (map-icon only) big trebutchets for the pre-siege calculations. they will do the wall breaking job in our imagination - like in Warband - spiced up with that siege tactic mini-game. Then those big ones will turn into small siege scene friendly trebutchets and will do area damge to the foe in real time. I could live with this version.

If I get the pre-ordered and built siege engines for the start of the battle, and I can still deploy and use them one-by-one as it was instilled in that 2016 video,
so that pre-siege phase thingy is an addition atop the heralded real-time features, not their cheap substitution, than I will be happy to.
 
 

dr4gunov

Regular
DtheHun said:
Edit: Fire arrows are hollywood B.S. The most hot thing in a general siege before gunpowder was the tar over the body of the poured off besiegers.

No they aren't.
At least Thietmar describes it's widespread use. And that was in the most powerfull European army at that time, one that also employed many siege engienes. One siege he described against fortress of prince Boleslav I the Brave (of Poland) failed because it started to rain and palisade fires were extinguished.

They used exactly same tar, you mentioned to keep the flame going on the arrows.
 

DtheHun

Sergeant Knight
M&BWB
Then again:
DtheHun said:
In that case I'm really sorry for my rudeness what has came from my ignorance!
and thanks for the info.

John C said:
I'm not sure what mod functions you mean, but if you think that's all they have done, I'll refer you to the following video from 2016, maybe not everyone has seen it.
I have referd to the last couple not core features like dialogue camera with body guards from TLD, settlement issues familiar from different mods. What are cool to have, but not the main reasons why I want this game done. I'm interested in features what can't be done by modding and requires a stable core from devs.

Do not look here said:
I was almost certain that we got it confirmed trebuchets would be exclusively used for overworld bombarding, but the AoE damage mentioned in siege engines blog counters that pretty clearly.

Anyway, I think you're clinging to the presets too much, we saw in the demos that amount of slots for siege engines is rather limited (some of them are just ram/siege tower Y/N), so it basically boils down to ranged weapons (and in that case I assume it's mainly a choice between whether you want to try and create a breach before assault or not). Imo, the presets are just QoL improvement to the system that never was as intricate or complicated as we could hope for.
As I said, I hope for it beeing QoL improvement and not replacement of the real-time action. Setting up multiple "alternative" routes for strong infantry, or getting some anti-ballistas and fire support for archer heavy besiegers makes sense for me. But are they really have so much time for things like making preset lists for five siege engines? Possible...




 

The Meddling Monk

Master Knight
WBNWVCM&BWF&S
Terco_Viejo said:
Allow me the parenthesis buddies...but....

46yqxBB.jpg


Duh_TaleWorlds have you arrived in Ankara yet? We need love now and surely after the publications in next devblog. Will we have our dose of love next Thursday around here?

o2CCKQJ.jpg
:lol:

(Your editing skills are impressive, btw)
 
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