Day 227 Sturgia is no more. I did not even lift a finger.

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Sturgia is weak because of the bad terrain, they are victims of poor map design. The land of always winter. Only Varcheg and Omor are cities placed in places that are more or less geographically relevant. Who in their right state of mind would ever take Sibir or Revyl? Located in the middle of nowhere and it takes days walking there and back.
Aserai is also weak because they are so stretched out. But at least they don't have most of their cities in the middle of the sticks.
 
I have been playing these last days as a Sturgia vassal and these are the reasons because I think this factions is usually getting wrecked:

- Map design: Sturgia is usually involved in wars against Khuzait or for some reason, against Southern Empire. So, when Sturgia armies are too far away defending Tyal or attacking Khuzait or SE Settlements, a new war against Battania is simply devasting for Sturgia.
- Khuzaits are OP: too strong faction, probably because the +20% strength for cavalry units and because their parties/armies are pretty fast and choose without problem favorable fights every time.

Sturgia roster is ok, not great but It is not the main issue for this faction for sure, and winning battles playing with Sturgia units is pretty doable. On the other hand, some units could get some love but It is the case for almost every faction.

IMO, these are the suggestions which could really help to improve the current situation:

- Remove the +20% for cav units which makes no sense how It is currently designed.
- Ensure that Khuzait is still not OP after removing the 20% for cav units.
- Make wars between Sturgia and Southern Empire something rare.
- Improve racial bonus for Sturgia as many have suggested. Something which could help Sturgia specially against Khuzaits. Maybe increasing the current speed bonus in snow would be really useful.
 
- Improve racial bonus for Sturgia as many have suggested. Something which could help Sturgia specially against Khuzaits. Maybe increasing the current speed bonus in snow would be really useful.
It is worse then you think. There is no speed bonuses, becouse game doesnt detect snow.
 


I really wanna lop her pretty stupid head off... but I don't want make it too easy for sturgia!
Edit: Of course they ride up and attack me in the open field like idiots! They need to re-consider the break in penalty so the AI can defend their stuff!
This is like dumping the fish out of the barrel and shooting them.
 
- Make wars between Sturgia and Southern Empire something rare.
- Improve racial bonus for Sturgia as many have suggested. Something which could help Sturgia specially against Khuzaits. Maybe increasing the current speed bonus in snow would be really useful.

1) I haven't seen many wars with the Southern Empire, unless they manage to eat the Northern Empire's bordering fiefs. In that case, border tensions will obviously be a factor.

2) So I've been doing a few observational games (no player intervention) and simply watching Sturgia's fate. In one case, they are actually doing alright; mostly avoiding war with the Khuzaits and still holding their four far north cities four years into the game. That's decent enough, all things considered. The weakest faction is actually the Western Empire, with the Northern Empire having some issues and Vlandia/Battania going hammer and tongs against each other.

In the other cases, they actually held up reasonably well until one thing happened: they had an army get trapped in either the Tyal or Varnovapol corridors. A speed bonus wouldn't have helped in either case; the armies that came were much bigger and much slower but that didn't matter because there was no way out. Once they lost a doomstack to another, bigger doomstack, they were never in a position to recover because the enemy had effective control (not necessarily ownership) of some of their territory.

I write all that to say that an improved snow bonus probably won't help them much. When it comes down to it, there is only single entrances into Varno, Tyal and Revyl which means that any Sturgian force caught there has to accept the battle, regardless of their speed. Of course it cuts both ways, and Sturgians can trap enemies in their as well, especially besiegers, but those besiegers get to respawn back in their relatively safe holdings and try again.

The Sturgians have to win that contest every time -- their enemies need only win it once or twice to start the death spiral.
 
1) I haven't seen many wars with the Southern Empire, unless they manage to eat the Northern Empire's bordering fiefs. In that case, border tensions will obviously be a factor.

2) So I've been doing a few observational games (no player intervention) and simply watching Sturgia's fate. In one case, they are actually doing alright; mostly avoiding war with the Khuzaits and still holding their four far north cities four years into the game. That's decent enough, all things considered. The weakest faction is actually the Western Empire, with the Northern Empire having some issues and Vlandia/Battania going hammer and tongs against each other.

In the other cases, they actually held up reasonably well until one thing happened: they had an army get trapped in either the Tyal or Varnovapol corridors. A speed bonus wouldn't have helped in either case; the armies that came were much bigger and much slower but that didn't matter because there was no way out. Once they lost a doomstack to another, bigger doomstack, they were never in a position to recover because the enemy had effective control (not necessarily ownership) of some of their territory.

I write all that to say that an improved snow bonus probably won't help them much. When it comes down to it, there is only single entrances into Varno, Tyal and Revyl which means that any Sturgian force caught there has to accept the battle, regardless of their speed. Of course it cuts both ways, and Sturgians can trap enemies in their as well, especially besiegers, but those besiegers get to respawn back in their relatively safe holdings and try again.

The Sturgians have to win that contest every time -- their enemies need only win it once or twice to start the death spiral.
Really nice observations! I agree there is more to the issue than what many people tend to boil it down to.

I've been running some simulations where I shuffled up the wars that the factions are in on game start, and it seems to have an effect on the outcomes. I matched Sturgia up with the Northern Empire and Khuzait up with the Southern Empire, and those pairs are much more evenly matched. It doesn't result in one faction gaining an early head of steam that they can then use to power through a weaker faction.

For instance, I noticed that Khuzait normally would often take Amprela and/or Myzea early on then declare war on Sturgia at an inopportune time and quickly take Tyal, giving them a nice stronghold in the northeast portion of the map. Lord's would defect to Khuzait and they wouldn't have anyone that could really challenge them on their end of the map, setting them up for a snowball.

When you pit Khuzait and the Southern Empire against each other there's a lot more give and take, and Khuzait doesn't conquer new territoy quite as quickly. Sturgia is able to take some fiefs from the Northern Empire and are not caught out of position quite as badly when war is declared with Khuzait or Battantia. The other matchups in these tests are Battania vs. Vlandia and the Western Empire vs. Aserai.

I think under normal circumstances Khuzait usually benefits from having a lot of 'soft' targets nearby in the early game, such as Amprela, Myzea, Tyal, Husn Fulq, and a plethora of castles that are easily reachable.

I know it's only two data points, but here are the results from the two tests I ran past the 8 year mark (in 1.4.0):


I'd love to see some other tests that try to measure the effects of things like starting prosperity and hearths (Sturgia is poor), types of villages local to a faction (Sturgia has medicore food sources), and whether or not passing the Noble Retinues or Royal Guards policies early gives a noticeable boost.
 
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The should randomise the starting wars. Not completely random but against a random neighbour. Maybe even start out with multiple wars like in Warband.
Fed up of seeing the same outcomes every game.
 
The should randomise the starting wars. Not completely random but against a random neighbour. Maybe even start out with multiple wars like in Warband.
Fed up of seeing the same outcomes every game.
Yeah, I think that would help shake up the outcomes we see.

Sturgia vs. Vlandia just seems like a product of them pairing off all the other factions then just pairing together the two remaining ones at the end.
 
I also think they should move Revyl and the castle near it. Put them inbetween Omor and Varcheg, just a little south near the other castles. That way they are not too spread out and have some clustered fiefs. Don't know if it would help though.
 
Part of the issue I think is that the Surgian castle Nevyansk, while a perfectly understandable location to guard the straits if navies were in the game, is simply a liability that inevitably results in Vlandia kicking in Sturgia's teeth and grabbing Omor since the AI dives deep into territories to grab the weakest city/castle instead of prioritizing distance to borders. This means that, after losing the castle far from its natural borders, Sturgia is seen as weak by its real neighbors--Battania, N Empire, and Khuzait. While Battania is rarely in a good position to expand northward, the Empire and Khuzaits' territory are primed to quickly swoop in and grab territory.

For one, the N Empire is a funnel pointing to its northern city Epicrotea, so much like the Aserai army train that stretches across the entire southern map, you have a focused, small territorial push north. And for the Khuzaits, they have two cities--Makeb, Baltakhand--close to strike at Tyal, and even Ortongard is closer with more castles than Sibr or Varnovapol are.

The lore behind Sturgia is that multiple northern kingdoms banded together, so that explains why it's such a segmented realm, but I think adding another city to the north near Tyal would do a lot to provide more of a bulwark against invaders. Though honestly, I don't think Sturgia's locations will make much sense until navies are added (hopefully in the future) and the map can be reworked to reflect Sturgian beginnings.
 
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