MP Class system overhaul/rebalance/shuffle/suggestions

[AoC]

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"Class system major change" by AoC merged with a thread by @Mabons , his OP starts here.

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There is quite easy way to deal with current system that keep it simple, yet give a lot of tactical choices.

It basically looks like this to user:

First row (4 choices, first one is tick on by default)
Second row (4 choices,first one is tick on by default)
Third row (4 choices, first one is tick on by default, choosing any other COST YOU GOLD [how much depend on class you picked, from 10 to 20 gold, the better class the higher cost][for Captain, it's imposing unit size penalties)

Under the hood, it's bit more complicated, as it's:

First row (always the same 4 choices)
Second row (4 out of 5 choices,one is axed depending upon what you picked in first draft)
Third row (always the same 3 choices, last one is depending upon what you picked in earlier drafts)

For TDM, only default cost counts toward gold generation when you die.

To illustrate, let's dive into example:

Vlandian Sergeant
· Armor: 42
· Movement speed: 75
· Cost: 145
· Army size: 16
· Defaut equipment: , western long arming sword, tall heater shield.
First row:

• Western spear
• Military Cleaver replace sword
• Bastard sword replace western sword
• Franceskas x4

Second row:

• Western spear (Longer spear if you picked Western spear in first row)(if you picked bastard sword or francescas, it's out)
• Improved Armor (+3) and Shield (bigger)
• Franceskas x4 or x8 if you picked it in first draft (if you picked western spear, it's out)
• Bastard sword (not available if you picked military cleaver in first row, change to Greatsword removing shield)
• Improved Armor and +2 movement speed

Note that there are 5 choices, but each choice in first row lock out exactly one choice. It can be made that each choice lock out 2, and there is 6 choices in this row.

Third row:

• Don't pay 15 gold extra
• A Horse (nothing spectacular, worst in faction)
• Improved Armor (+6) imposing -1 movement speed penalty
• Special

Special can be Improved Spear (if you picked exactly one spear perk), extra franciscas (if you picked exactly one franciscas perk), greatsword (if you picked exactly one bastard sword), regular spear (if you picked none of aforementioned) or regular franciscas (if you picked double spear). It's based upon first row in this example, so if you picked franciscas in first, and spear in second, you get additional franciscas in third, if you picked the other way around, you have improved spear.

Spoiler: Initial Suggestion

Problems with current system:

• Some perks have too high opportunity cost, therefore are not worth taking.
• People who like certain classes, don't benefit from class system which mostly benefit people who like to play as the most powerful unit in the faction.
• Some classes are not viable at all.

IF perk system have to stay, it would be better to make it two-tiered or three-tiered. Let's do it on for example Vlandia Sergeant.

First, you have default Sword and Shield guy for 140 gold.

On first tier, you can get Francescas, Spear or Bastard Sword instead of Sword. You can also opt out of each of those choosing option (NONE) (each other option - NONE aside - would cost you 10 gold).
On second tier, you can get Improved Armor, Spear (or spear upgrade, if you chosen spear on first tier), or Bastard Sword (or bsword upgrade if you went bsword on first - i didn't picked it so i don't know how it works) or pick (NONE) (each other option - NONE aside - would cost you 10 gold).
On third tier, you can get another Improved Armor (or even better armor if you picked it before), Francescas (or better and more throwing axes if you picked it before), Improved shield or NONE. As in other cases, it would cost 10 if you pick some option.

Graphically, it would look similar to current selection, but with 1 column with 3 rows (icons circular like current ones or squircle). When you click on a icon, it expand into 4 circles, by default they are on position 1 (which means no additional equipment).

By default, you would get (none) option selected (on all 3 tiers), and it would let you play heavy infantry with 140-170 gold range, depending on your success. Improved perks would give less return of investment (for example first tier of armor would give something like +6 and second +10 to default armor, improved bastard sword would not be way better than default option). Overall, each class would end up with 64 permutations which is i think enough to give people enough customization.

Of course all numbers are subject to change (for example not every tier have to cost same amount of gold, perhaps picking more tiers should cost more, for example 145 for 1, 160 for 2, 175 for picking 3 options (or 145, 155 and 165 - it's really not that important right now). Not every troop have to have three tiers, some would be perfectly fine with just two tiers, especially cheaper classes (ones that cost less than 140 currently).


(in extremely streamlined version of my proposal, there are two rows of perks, and you are always taking one choice from both of them making it amount of total permutations 16 per class)

Spoiler: Experimental Vlandia

• Peasant Levy

· Armor: 5 → 4
· Movement speed: 76 → 75
· Cost: 100
· Army size: 22 →24
· Defaut equipment: Sickle
- NONE - Metal pitchfork - Billhook - Shield
- NONE - Throwing Stones - Woodcutter Axe - Leather Coat +5 Armor

This class in its current state is not viable at all, that's why they gain shield perk if one want to use them as something other than anti-cavalry. I think Maul or the other pitchfork would also work nice with those.
I purposefully made them weak, which might warrant price decrease.

• Voulgier

· Health: 110 → 100
· Armor: 10
· Movement speed: 77 → 78
· Cost: 120 → 115
· Army size: 19
· Defaut equipment:Voulge.
-NONE - Improved armor - Great sword - Awl pike
-NONE - Great Sword - Better Voulge - Improved armor

It's polearm class, giving every single unit a shield is not required as already every other unit can get a shield.

• Sergeant

· Armor: 41→ 43
· Movement speed: 75
· Cost: 150
· Army size: 15
· Defaut equipment: , western long arming sword, tall heater shield.
-NONE - Improved Armor - Franceskas x5 - Western spear
-NONE - Bastard sword - Military Cleaver - Shield
-NONE - Improved Armor - Franceskas x5 - Western spear

"This class isn’t particularly weaker if compared to similar troops, but is currently being overshadowed by the sharpshooter, which is very strong at range but can also compete with infantry classes in melee. The only thing this unit has going its way is that it can properly deal with cavalry if taking the spear perk." While it's true, people like to play heavy infantry as pure heavy infantry. If someone want to get anti-cavalry, double upgrade to spear should deal with cavalry with no problems.

• Arbelist

· Armor: 3 → 4
· Movement speed: 73
· Cost: 120 → 125
· Army size: 15 → 17
· Defaut equipment: Light crossbow x16, western shortsword.
-NONE - Improved armor - Crossbow x16 - Voulge
-NONE - Improved armor - Crossbow x16 (Arbalest) - Shield

Not a fan of crossbowman, but they can certainly get something like this.

• Sharpshooter

· Armor: 24 (note, they need worse armor as default, current one is in ~32 armor range, and is one of the upgrades)
· Movement speed: 72
· Cost: 160
· Army size: 9
· Defaut equipment: Crossbow x18, western arming sword, pavise shield.
NONE - Improved armor - Improved Shield - Better and more bolts
NONE - Heavy Crossbow - Improved armor - changed armor and movement speed
NONE - Military Hammer- Longsword - Heavy Crossbow

One of the best classes in the game. Military Hammer is nice 1h blunt weapon against heavy infantry, longsword could be nice if transition from 1h to 2h will be faster (with throwing away shield perhaps, on X?). Perks could be reshuffled a bit, but overall they are too solid.

• Vanguard

· Armor: 19
· Movement speed: 71
· Cost: 140
· Army size: 9
· Defaut equipment: Western spear, western long arming sword, western rider’s kite shield, hunter.
- NONE - Charger (heavy horse) - Western short lance - Improved armor
- NONE - Light Horse Armor - Improved armor - Western short lance

Currently, lance is default choice last i heard, and the lance can be get when picking lance in both cases.

• Knight

· Armor: 41 → 42
· Movement speed: 70 → 74
· Cost: 190 → 195
· Army size: 7
· Defaut equipment: Western lance, western long arming sword, heavy horseman’s kite shield, charger.
- NONE - Improved armor - Western heavier lance - Improved Shield
- NONE - Improved armor - Better horse with more hp and better charge - Improved horse barding
- NONE - Improved sword - Cavalry Mace/Hammer - Western heavier lance

When i was doing the thoughts experiment with multi-row perks, i came to conclusion that it can be done in few ways, namely:
- Decrease cost of basic unit, but charge for each perk
- Make all perks available, so you can take one option from each row
- Make it 4 choices per row, with just two rows for all units
- Make it 3 choices per row, but you can choose just two rows, and third is grayed out.

Also, i came into sad realization, that from unit selection:
- There are no localized armor (head, torso, limbs would be best choice imo, better than head, torso, legs)
- No perks give any spendable item (for example some meat to regenerate HP out of direct combat, some potions to increase strength and speed for berzerkers and impair vision for some duration of time - or even to give them feel no pain, reducing hit stun or something, no torches to put things on fire)
- No perks give bonuses to movement speed and increase armor at the same time

 

[Callum]

This is a pretty interesting idea, passed it on to the combat team.

 

[flavberg]

I agree with the idea, I've had a similar suggestion back in October,

Spoiler

First perk slot, you have a selection of armor. Light, medium, heavy. You also have a budget. Let's say, for the sake of simplicity, it is 1000. Light armor perk (giving you a light helmet, light torso armor, light legs and no gloves) costs 400. Medium costs 600 and heavy costs 800.

Now, the second perk slot offers you a selection of weapons. Again, depending on the class, simple swords/bows/axes/maces, better ones, and the best. Simple melee equipment would cost 200, better one would classify as 400 and the best 600. The sets of weapons would, of course, be based on the class. A thrower's class would have a simple sword, darts and a weaker shield in the weak set. A medium-weapon perk bowman would spawn with a decent sword, a middling bow and decent arrows. You get the idea.

Again, the numbers are just there for basic understanding.

So, if you want to go heavy armored and have very bad weapons on round one, you can do so, but it offers way more customization than what it currently is, while keeping a perk system, keeping faction-based uniforms and lore-friendly customization, and offering some of Warband's freedom, while also being new-player-friendly.

Although, I must say I disagree with the three layer perk. It would be redundant in real-time play to keep track of so many perks, and we'd basically reach to a learning of the meta build, as we did in Warband.

Instead, I propose a two-layer perk. One for weapons and one for armor. Let's take your example, the Vlandian Sergeant, the cost of 140.

Three choices of weapons, ranging from a simple sword (free) to a better sword (+10) and the finest sword you can afford (+20). Then, on the second perk you would choose the equipment. Default is the chainmail (free), then a slightly better armor, perhaps some cuir bouili (+10) and the best armor you can get, like a brigandine (+20). If you choose the default, you only rip off 140 from your budget. If you choose the best, you spend 180.

So, you could mix and match weapons and armor, providing both customization and functionality. You want bad armor but the best weapons available? You're free to get them. You want both of them? You might not be able to spawn a second time. Or perhaps you will go for a balanced approach. I think it clears path to some class meta, as some players love to find the best class and the best combination, while also keeping customization available.

 

[AoC]

I agree with the idea, I've had a similar suggestion back in October,

Spoiler

First perk slot, you have a selection of armor. Light, medium, heavy. You also have a budget. Let's say, for the sake of simplicity, it is 1000. Light armor perk (giving you a light helmet, light torso armor, light legs and no gloves) costs 400. Medium costs 600 and heavy costs 800.

Now, the second perk slot offers you a selection of weapons. Again, depending on the class, simple swords/bows/axes/maces, better ones, and the best. Simple melee equipment would cost 200, better one would classify as 400 and the best 600. The sets of weapons would, of course, be based on the class. A thrower's class would have a simple sword, darts and a weaker shield in the weak set. A medium-weapon perk bowman would spawn with a decent sword, a middling bow and decent arrows. You get the idea.

Again, the numbers are just there for basic understanding.

So, if you want to go heavy armored and have very bad weapons on round one, you can do so, but it offers way more customization than what it currently is, while keeping a perk system, keeping faction-based uniforms and lore-friendly customization, and offering some of Warband's freedom, while also being new-player-friendly.

Similar, but not respecting their guidelines (300 points for round, leftover carry over up to 90, you get bonus points in round with kills and assists). Also, your system require people to keep in mind how much they spent on armor, and how much on weapons, while mine require just to keep in mind how many perks they selected as each one have the same cost (if taken). Code wise, you are introducing new currency, while i don't

(in extremely streamlined  version of my proposal, there are two rows of perks, and you are always taking one choice from both of them making it amount of total permutations 16 per class)

Although, I must say I disagree with the three layer perk. It would be redundant in real-time play to keep track of so many perks, and we'd basically reach to a learning of the meta build, as we did in Warband.

There will always be meta builds, heck, even now there are meta builds with just 3 perks.

Instead, I propose a two-layer perk. One for weapons and one for armor. Let's take your example, the Vlandian Sergeant, the cost of 140.

Three choices of weapons, ranging from a simple sword (free) to a better sword (+10) and the finest sword you can afford (+20). Then, on the second perk you would choose the equipment. Default is the chainmail (free), then a slightly better armor, perhaps some cuir bouili (+10) and the best armor you can get, like a brigandine (+20). If you choose the default, you only rip off 140 from your budget. If you choose the best, you spend 180.

But this system does not give versatility, in some ways it don't allow changing main function of class like current perks do (you can't for example get throwing axes under your proposed system, as it just upgrade your current equipment. I purposefully mixed offensive, off-build and defensive perks in each row, to increase variety and make people feel like they are not carbon copy of each other, while keep unit purpose intact.

So, you could mix and match weapons and armor, providing both customization and functionality. You want bad armor but the best weapons available? You're free to get them. You want both of them? You might not be able to spawn a second time.

So is my system, in some regard, but yours seems bit more restrictive (not to mention people will lean toward upgrading defense first, offense second from min-max perspective imo.

 

[flavberg]

I agree with the idea, I've had a similar suggestion back in October,

Spoiler

First perk slot, you have a selection of armor. Light, medium, heavy. You also have a budget. Let's say, for the sake of simplicity, it is 1000. Light armor perk (giving you a light helmet, light torso armor, light legs and no gloves) costs 400. Medium costs 600 and heavy costs 800.

Now, the second perk slot offers you a selection of weapons. Again, depending on the class, simple swords/bows/axes/maces, better ones, and the best. Simple melee equipment would cost 200, better one would classify as 400 and the best 600. The sets of weapons would, of course, be based on the class. A thrower's class would have a simple sword, darts and a weaker shield in the weak set. A medium-weapon perk bowman would spawn with a decent sword, a middling bow and decent arrows. You get the idea.

Again, the numbers are just there for basic understanding.

So, if you want to go heavy armored and have very bad weapons on round one, you can do so, but it offers way more customization than what it currently is, while keeping a perk system, keeping faction-based uniforms and lore-friendly customization, and offering some of Warband's freedom, while also being new-player-friendly.

Similar, but not respecting their guidelines (300 points for round, leftover carry over up to 90, you get bonus points in round with kills and assists). Also, your system require people to keep in mind how much they spent on armor, and how much on weapons, while mine require just to keep in mind how many perks they selected as each one have the same cost (if taken). Code wise, you are introducing new currency, while i don't

(in extremely streamlined  version of my proposal, there are two rows of perks, and you are always taking one choice from both of them making it amount of total permutations 16 per class)

Although, I must say I disagree with the three layer perk. It would be redundant in real-time play to keep track of so many perks, and we'd basically reach to a learning of the meta build, as we did in Warband.

There will always be meta builds, heck, even now there are meta builds with just 3 perks.

Instead, I propose a two-layer perk. One for weapons and one for armor. Let's take your example, the Vlandian Sergeant, the cost of 140.

Three choices of weapons, ranging from a simple sword (free) to a better sword (+10) and the finest sword you can afford (+20). Then, on the second perk you would choose the equipment. Default is the chainmail (free), then a slightly better armor, perhaps some cuir bouili (+10) and the best armor you can get, like a brigandine (+20). If you choose the default, you only rip off 140 from your budget. If you choose the best, you spend 180.

But this system does not give versatility, in some ways it don't allow changing main function of class like current perks do (you can't for example get throwing axes under your proposed system, as it just upgrade your current equipment. I purposefully mixed offensive, off-build and defensive perks in each row, to increase variety and make people feel like they are not carbon copy of each other, while keep unit purpose intact.

So, you could mix and match weapons and armor, providing both customization and functionality. You want bad armor but the best weapons available? You're free to get them. You want both of them? You might not be able to spawn a second time.

So is my system, in some regard, but yours seems bit more restrictive (not to mention people will lean toward upgrading defense first, offense second from min-max perspective imo.

As a competitive player, I'd learn towards my guns doing a lot of damage instead of having more armor. It's a subjective choice, some may choose other things. Also, the point of this was that, let's say the Vlandian Sergeant, has all the required equipment handed to him, based on his faction. So, if it's a Vlandian Sergeant, he gets a spear, sword and shield. If one wants throwing weapons, one goes for a skirmisher class.

Hmm, perhaps your system allows slightly more versatility than mine does, but some may ruin the intended purpose of classes with it and turn them into something else than they're supposed to be. Imagine you have a teammate with 50 throwing axes and dog**** armor. Suddenly, he's not that useful to the team anymore.

 

[AoC]

Spoiler

I agree with the idea, I've had a similar suggestion back in October,

Spoiler

First perk slot, you have a selection of armor. Light, medium, heavy. You also have a budget. Let's say, for the sake of simplicity, it is 1000. Light armor perk (giving you a light helmet, light torso armor, light legs and no gloves) costs 400. Medium costs 600 and heavy costs 800.

Now, the second perk slot offers you a selection of weapons. Again, depending on the class, simple swords/bows/axes/maces, better ones, and the best. Simple melee equipment would cost 200, better one would classify as 400 and the best 600. The sets of weapons would, of course, be based on the class. A thrower's class would have a simple sword, darts and a weaker shield in the weak set. A medium-weapon perk bowman would spawn with a decent sword, a middling bow and decent arrows. You get the idea.

Again, the numbers are just there for basic understanding.

So, if you want to go heavy armored and have very bad weapons on round one, you can do so, but it offers way more customization than what it currently is, while keeping a perk system, keeping faction-based uniforms and lore-friendly customization, and offering some of Warband's freedom, while also being new-player-friendly.

Similar, but not respecting their guidelines (300 points for round, leftover carry over up to 90, you get bonus points in round with kills and assists). Also, your system require people to keep in mind how much they spent on armor, and how much on weapons, while mine require just to keep in mind how many perks they selected as each one have the same cost (if taken). Code wise, you are introducing new currency, while i don't

(in extremely streamlined  version of my proposal, there are two rows of perks, and you are always taking one choice from both of them making it amount of total permutations 16 per class)

Although, I must say I disagree with the three layer perk. It would be redundant in real-time play to keep track of so many perks, and we'd basically reach to a learning of the meta build, as we did in Warband.

There will always be meta builds, heck, even now there are meta builds with just 3 perks.

Instead, I propose a two-layer perk. One for weapons and one for armor. Let's take your example, the Vlandian Sergeant, the cost of 140.

Three choices of weapons, ranging from a simple sword (free) to a better sword (+10) and the finest sword you can afford (+20). Then, on the second perk you would choose the equipment. Default is the chainmail (free), then a slightly better armor, perhaps some cuir bouili (+10) and the best armor you can get, like a brigandine (+20). If you choose the default, you only rip off 140 from your budget. If you choose the best, you spend 180.

But this system does not give versatility, in some ways it don't allow changing main function of class like current perks do (you can't for example get throwing axes under your proposed system, as it just upgrade your current equipment. I purposefully mixed offensive, off-build and defensive perks in each row, to increase variety and make people feel like they are not carbon copy of each other, while keep unit purpose intact.

So, you could mix and match weapons and armor, providing both customization and functionality. You want bad armor but the best weapons available? You're free to get them. You want both of them? You might not be able to spawn a second time.

So is my system, in some regard, but yours seems bit more restrictive (not to mention people will lean toward upgrading defense first, offense second from min-max perspective imo.

As a competitive player, I'd learn towards my guns doing a lot of damage instead of having more armor. It's a subjective choice, some may choose other things. Also, the point of this was that, let's say the Vlandian Sergeant, has all the required equipment handed to him, based on his faction. So, if it's a Vlandian Sergeant, he gets a spear, sword and shield. If one wants throwing weapons, one goes for a skirmisher class.

Hmm, perhaps your system allows slightly more versatility than mine does, but some may ruin the intended purpose of classes with it and turn them into something else than they're supposed to be. Imagine you have a teammate with 50 throwing axes and dog**** armor. Suddenly, he's not that useful to the team anymore.

In Warband that is justified, as full armor cost 6k and full weapon cost 1k. In suggestion both cost 20.

 

[gopat]

I think this is a good idea. It would give classes much more variety of combinations but still keep equipment selection fairly streamlined.
Obviously would be a big task to get it fairly balanced though.

 

[AoC]

I think this is a good idea. It would give classes much more variety of combinations but still keep equipment selection fairly streamlined.
Obviously would be a big task to get it fairly balanced though.

One major pain point is doing three-row perks with weapon changes, because it can interfere with other weapon swaps (for example on sharpshooter you can change sword into bastard sword, or upgrade - i can't put them on different perk rows, because you would potentially end up with situation where you have hammer, bastard sword, shield, crossbow and shield (and 4 is a limit i think).

Another idea is to implement two rows of 4 upgrades (mandatory, first is default) and third perk row for VISUAL upgrades - or choose it in armory screen before battle, as you customize characters.

 

[AoC]

Major redesign.

It's not supposed to be modifying look, i think that armory should take care about look (you would be able to change armor visuals here).

On the other side, there are 4 different armors hidden behind perk system (42, 45, 48, 51) which should ensure some kind of visual diversity - although most units will have just 2-3 armors when using this system.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

I really like this idea as a way to shakeup the class system.

 

[Mabons]

Just want to preface this with my opinion on the class system: It's not a good idea. However it's not going away, so we must make the best of what we've got. I have played about 500 hrs of multiplayer Bannerlord already, and mostly in matchmaking in Skirmish when I played solo. These are just my opinions remember, feel free to point out bull**** or hypocrisy or just plain wrong things.

This is going to be a long read, get comfortable. I will go through each class and discuss their overall perk options and what perks are performing better etc. or why this class isn't really fun to play etc. Most of the current perk system has redundancies because you get a specific weapon or armour rating by default or a certain 2 perk combination is much stronger etc. It's my aim with a shuffling around or rebalancing of values and defaults that you should get an actual decision to make when it comes to selection of perks. The game should also encourage a combined arms approach, in the current game for example just about every class has a spear. This diminishes the actual role of the spearmen classes if the archer can also take it, which means no one picks said spearmen if they can shoot cav as they approach and then pull the spear out to fight them up close. Just an example. At the same time, we should also encourage that every class has an option to fight another class, but it will just be less optimal than other classes options. As an example, removing spears from archers makes them weaker to cavalry but they can still shoot them with fast arrows and fast bows if the player is skilled enough to do so.

This will be mostly talking about PVP combat, Captain mode is not really something I would balance around until the AI learns to use it's weapons properly, as in most cases taking the perks that give you greater survivability are the best in Captain (As it gives the AI more time to think about what stupid **** it's going to do next). Plus it's been hinted at before that Captain mode will follow it's own balance.

CURRENT ISSUES WITH PERKS GLOBALLY:
-Too many classes lack shields
-Too many classes have spears/pikes
-Too many classes have/have the option to get too much armour
-Too many classes have throwing weapons

Also, I'll try to update this everytime they(the devs) fiddle with the perks some more giving my opinion or what, but just be aware some stuff might be outdated. It will be marked with "EDIT:" if I have updated.

Spoiler: Light Infantry

Light infantry are a bit of a mixed bag depending on the faction. Some of them are great solid picks that are worth the little step down in quality for an extra life, some of them it feels like you are trolling to be picking them. As I see it they all should be able to fulfil the role of a flexibile unit able to respond to whatever threat is on the field. This is further compounded by the fact they have three spawns in Skirmish, if I die in my first life against cavalry because I did not take a spear, I can now choose a spear and counter him. This gives us a basic unit that is playable in any situation so we aren't charging siege walls as a peasant just to die a few times and save gold up for a class that actually does something.

Peasant Levy
This class is like some sort of pseudo shock infantry now, all because of how good the billhook is, yes, even after the nerfs. I would swap this one with the military bill that the Voulgier has and which they used to have. They also desperately need a small shield, and if the pitchfork could be used with it as well, a bonus. Improved armour doesn't really make sense for a class that is supposed to be the worst of the worst. I propose this perk set up:
PERK 1: Pickaxe, Hammer, Shield
PERK 2: (One handed)Pitchfork, Military Bill, Stones
This gives them access to a crap version of everything, they can still be a "looter" type class by picking up superior weapons but at least they aren't left with nothing. As I understand Vlandia is quite a powerful faction all around so for their "low" class to be bad makes sense, but they still need the basics.

Clan Warrior
This class is almost perfect, probably one of the best 100 gold classes now. It just needs a fix to the inconsitencies. For example, the throwing spear is all around superior compared to the normal spear. The longsword should probably be switched out for a short sword. Right now I will always take improved shield and throwing spear with this class because these two perks outshine the others. I might take club (which is really good, probably should be toned down a little bit) if they are using a lot of high tier armoured troops. I won't give a perk set up here as they are pretty much as they should be but perhaps just make the actual Spear better for fighting with than the throwing spear, and give them a short sword by default. We remain to see if Slings will be implemented properly so I'll leave that perk for now.

EDIT: Well in my first version of this post, the Clan Warrior was a perfect example of how Light Infantry should be. It's been changed since and for the worse. They no longer get a small shield by default, and no longer get the amazing armour piercing club as default either. I'll make it simple: Give them back the small shield and allow them the perk for a larger shield again. Something like this:
PERK 1: Club, Axe, Long Sword.
PERK 2: Spear, Large Shield, Throwing Spear
The throwing spear must be made shorter than the actual spear, and give them the short sword by default.

Warrior
Warrior's kind of suffer from certain perks redundant. That said it's still a good class for the 100g classes, I just think it would be more interesting if they had a different perk instead of 2 different throwing weapons.. Every other 100g class has a counter to everything, so we need an armour punishing perk. I can't really think of anything cool to add for them but nevertheless here is my perk set up:
PERK 1: Sword, Bigger Shield, Better Axe
PERK 2: Spear, 2 handed Maul, Throwing Axes
In my experience with this class though it is much like the Clan Warrior, it works nicely. EDIT: They gave the class a 2 handed axe instead of the maul. That's nice until you have to fight 6 legionarys without an armour sundering weapon.

Rabble
To be blunt the Rabble are horrendous, and it's supposed to be balanced with Khuzait having better cavalry. I will touch on that later but the Rabble desperately need some love. Their perks are all over the place:
PERK 1: Sword, Sickle, Armour
PERK 2: Shield Sling Spear
It leaves you sacrificing one thing for the other when other classes do not have to do this. I appreciate the 90g cost is what is supposed to balance it but it is too ineffective right now. I propose:
PERK 1: Better Shield, Sling, Armour
PERK 2: Spear, Sword, Sickle
They would get their small shield as default and the "better" shield would be the default one that the current spear infantry has. (Wicker Square Shield)

Tribal Warrior
Not a true Light Warrior class like the ones before it, this serves more as a stepping stone between light and heavy infantry, as the Aserai lose out on Heavy Infantry. There really isn't much to say about this class other than it has to be judged slightly differently in the context of it's faction, because it needs to be able to have an improved armour option. It just needs its perks shuffled as so:
PERK 1: Mace, Larger Shield, Axe
PERK 2: Improved Armour, Javelins, Spear
And have the Axe replace the sword, so we are not carrying around two one handed weapons. The Tribal Warrior has been a solid pick throughout the beta so far, I think it will continue to be so. I even think it might be worth increasing it's cost by 10 gold. EDIT: This class has been increased to 120 gold which is just 10 too much.

At this point you're probably seeing the pattern that each Light infantry unit should be roughly the same but with their own "twist" in weapon selection. Because they are the most basic class they should have the means to fight against everything but just in a worst state of weapons and armour. The Empire's recruit will be covered in the Skirmisher section.

Spoiler: Skirmisher

Skirmishers are really outshined in general by every other class through no fault of their own. Every other class seems to be able to take throwing weapons so why bring in the specialist? The best way to make Skirmishers an appreciated class is to reduce every other classes throwing weapon count to bare minimum(1 or 2) and if you want more, you bring in a Skirmisher class. These guys should have the highest movement speed on foot, be lightly armoured and used exlusively for combating archers in medium to short range, or supporting the light or heavy infantry. Right now they just feel like another, slightly more expensive light infantry class, or worse heavy infantry class in the case of Battania. They should be at a disadvantage in melee with better infantry classes but not so disadvantaged that they lose to archers of an equal skill. In a way I am going to completely restructure the skirmisher class.

Also this is the class that least factions have, Vlandia and Khuzait both miss out on this class, which is why it's probably being overlooked as this "nothing" class.

Recruit
This is the Empires 100g class, and although it is easy to compare it to the other factions 100g/90g classes it is of course a skirmisher class so it shall be judged as such. Current perks:
PERK 1: Better Javelins, Bigger Shield, Axe
PERK 2: Spear, Extra Javelins, Range Javelins*
*I am aware this is temporary, but I will still talk about them anyways.
They currently by default have 10 armour, and 78 movement speed. 2 more than the heavy armoured Legionary in their own faction(!). I propose a new type of perk exclusive to skirmishers that allows them to remove armour for an increase in movement speed. I also believe for them to always be able to perform their anti-archer duties they should always have a big shield, but the perk should make them tougher. Every skirmisher should start with one pouch by default of throwing weapons, and have a perk that increases that to 2. The Empire is sort of a special case because it also fulfils their 100g slot so they need to have a spear, and I would replace the axe with a mace so they always have something that can punish armour too(as javelins should do extra damage to shields as well) Like so:
PERK 1: Better Javelins, "Stronger" Shield, Mace
PERK 2: Spear, Extra Javelins, Increased Mobility*
*Increased mobility would see their movement speed increase by 3, removing their armour down to 1. I will not comment on how this should look because I am not exactly qualified for that kind of discussion.

EDIT: They removed the default shield for this class... again showing literally no idea why that's a bad idea. Just stick to the suggestions above for the love of god!

Wildling
Battania's half light infantry half heavy infantry class that doesn't really feel like a skirmisher but more of a medium infantry pick. Their armour is way too heavy to be looked at as a Skirmisher so I think for starters that should be reduced a lot more, their movement speed is also high(as is all of Battania's classes), so perhaps a perk that improves their armour and reduces their movement speed is better here(or vice versa) They also get access to the long spear which makes them an effective anti-cavalry unit, as well as access to a long sword, and a big shield through perks... It just doesn't feel like a skirmisher unit. I propose:
PERK 1: Throwing Spears, Tougher Shield, Increased Mobility
PERK 2: Extra Throwing, Longsword, Club
Again if Javelins and other throwing weapons get a bonus to shields like they should do then there is no need for skirmishers to carry an Axe also. Again they should always have the bigger shield by default and be allowed to get a tougher shield. Just to bring the unit in line with the other Skirmishers the default armour has to drop to about 10ish-15ish. Increased Mobility should do the same as the recruit unit, remove about 9 armour for an increase in mobility by 2-3(Not really sure about this one, 3 would make them the fastest ground troop in the game, 2 would make them as fast as savages currently are). The 2nd perk tree isn't really inspired but I had to remove the spear somehow because it just feels wrong that a skirmisher unit has a counter to cavalry. Having another Battanian unit with a club is nice too. Overall this class is probably not priced correctly in either the current situation or my proposal so I would increase it's cost by 10 either way. It's extremely good value both ways.

Brigand
This is truly one of the worst classes in the game, and it shows when you see Sturgia that almost no one picks this. That said Sturgia are pretty solid in other areas so I can be happy with this being their black sheep. Again they should always have the biggest shield, have a perk that reduces their armour to give them more mobility(their default movement speed is abysmal btw... 75!) They again suffer from the same as other skirmishers axe problem but they also get it by default as a Sturgian theme, and they are also given a spear(albeit it is a short one). I think this could be the one class that should be given a "knife" type weapon to, I mean it's called Brigand for gods sake. The knife should be an extremely short range weapon that is exceptionally quick, perfect for stabbing light archers to death. Let's talk about Fish Harpoons. There is no way in hell they should fly as straight as they do, just look at them, so I believe the accuracy could be toned down a little. This is exactly the kind of class that should start with a large quantity of throwing weapons that are slightly inaccurate. They should also have the option of throwing axes like the rest of the Sturgian line up. So, their new perks:
PERK 1: Tougher Shield, Increased Mobility, Throwing Axes
PERK 2: Extra Throwing, Knife, Better Axe
There isn't much left to discuss about the class. I struggled on a last perk for the class so if I anyone has a better idea than "Better Axe" please do say.

Skirmisher
Overall compared to the Tribal Warrior this class is just a downgrade for Aserai in every way. I feel it suffers from the perks just not having much thought really, despite it's default values of armour and movement speed being in the right spot. They should absolutely have access to Jereeds, and the same as other Skirmishers, have access to a bigger shield by default, an increased mobility perk etc. My idea:
PERK 1: Jereeds, Tougher Shield, Increased Mobility
PERK 2: Extra Throwing, Mace, Longer Sword
Same as Battania the 2nd perk tree isn't inspired but every other Aserai troop has access to the mace so why not the Skirmisher too, and as before I had to somehow remove the spear.

This concludes the Skirmisher class, I would be happier if I could think up a new perk for most of the 2nd perk trees but so far this will suffice. The increased mobility perk should obviously always be able to be read. Tougher Shields should have a different artwork or shape to distinguish that they are different from the default shield.

Spoiler: Shock Infantry

Currently shock infantry are in a weird spot being super useful in chaotic fights where their one hit KO potential is super high, and they can use their movement speed(which is weirdly high) to weave in and out of fights. Go to Skirmish and they don't exist basically. There is no reason to take a unit that lacks any option for a shield, across all factions. They should(and most currently are), be the exceptional duelist class. This is sort of hindered at the moment by blocking for large weapons having a considerable delay but that can't even be taken into consideration if they aren't even able to reach the fight when every class can throw something at them without a way for shock infantry to defend themselves(other than to zig zag in a ridiculous unpredictable pattern). I would see shock infantry be the ultimate class for fighting through the heavy infantry and light infantry classes, most of them should have access to some sort of shield breaking weapon that helps them expose the "tankier" infantry classes.

Menavlion Infantry
This is probably one of the worst classes in the game right now. The weapon is slow, predictable(you'll want to swing sideways most of the time because of the large hitbox) and they have next to no armour despite appearances. It also just doesn't work as a shock infantry class, it doesn't have the elite look that other shock infantry have going for them, the weapon is not intimidating, and it really doesn't seem like a duelist weapon either. I would rather see Empire have a complete overhaul and be given a far more universally recognised unit (that we know is in SP): The Varangian Guard. I can't see this class being saved with a basic perk overhaul, and I don't think anyone would really miss this class if it was replaced with Varangian Guards. EDIT: Apparently I can't see any Varangian Guard unit or something similar in Singleplayer Well someone else can try fixing this class cause I sure as hell ain't doing it. Still maintain a Varangian Guard unit would be the best idea.

Voulgier
The quintessential dueling class, and all because of the Great Sword perk. Still, this is a good example to show the weird perk set up for shock infantry. They have access to the military bill(Which I have already said should be swapped with the peasent levy Billhook), two handed sword and improved armour in the first perk branch, and then awlpikes, javelins and franceskas in the 2nd perk branch. They have by default a western long arming sword. There isn't really a chance to customize the class to your preferences. I would much rather see:
Perk 1: Voulge, 2 Handed Sword, Billhook
Perk 2: Improved Armour, Increased Mobility, Small Shield
And also remove the one handed sword so they are forced to use a 2 handed weapon in close combat. I removed the awlpike because like skirmishers they have to fulfil a niche and not be versatile. The voulge should be the slower heavy hitting weapon, that is currently is, and do bonus damage to shields. The Billhook can be faster less damaging but again still has a bonus against shields. The great sword can remain as it currently is, a perfect duelist weapon. Increased Mobility should do the same as previous for Skirmisher classes and remove armour for a slight movement speed increase. I still predict that the shield will be by and far the more popular perk choice so it might be worth thinking about just giving it by default, and replacing the perk with something else.

Savage
Most shock infantry will follow the same changes as the Voulgier has, for example I would change the Savages perks to:
Perk 1: Romphaia, 2 handed Mace, Woodcutters Axe
Perk 2: Improved Armour, Increased Mobility, Small Shield
Every shock infantry should be able to customize their duelist playstyle to suit them, with the first perk branch giving them a choice of weapon and the 2nd perk branch giving a choice of protection. There isn't much else to say here other than maybe making the default stats for savage what the Increased Mobility perk will provide and then have Improved Armour make the savage slower but wearing some actual armour and not just a helmet. Savages should be the fastest shock infantry as they are basically "naked fanatics".

Berzerker
Perk 1: 2 Handed Axe, Maul, Spiked Club
Perk 2: Improved Armour, Increased Mobility, Small Shield
Not much to add other than the Berzerker obviously is quite similar to Savages but I cannot find a weapon fitting of Berzerkers that gives decent piercing damage other than a spiked club. Every shock infantry now has access to all three damage types and a shield breaking weapon giving them the upper hand in breaking open turtles.


Guard
Perk 1: Bardiche, Two Handed Sword, Long Mace
Perk 2: Improved Armour, Increased Mobility, Small Shield
This class should be one of the slowest shock infantry classes but gain some armour as the Aserai sorely lack armour in the first place. A long mace akin to what the Sarranids had in Warband would fit nicely here as a blunt weapon source.

Kind of uninspired but then the nuances for each shock infantry comes into play when you look at the weapons they can use, the differing armour values, and movement speeds. I also want to address the strange HP boost for some shock infantry classes. They should all be given 100 hp regardless. If anything Heavy Infantry and Heavy Cavalry should have HP increases, not these. I will also address the weird price disrepancies. Berzerker and Voulgiers are cheaper but are currently probably the best of the shock infantry. Again I'd rather see them all be made 130 gold, perhaps even worthwhile increasing all of them to 140 gold if they are given shields. So to summarise;

• All shock infantry given shields via perk choice (or by default if someone has a better idea for a 3rd perk in the 2nd perk tree)
• Berzerker and Savages should be fast, and unarmoured(Around 10 armour) by default with the option to increase their armour to 20ish or reduce it to literally nothing (5 or less) for more movement.
• Guards, Varangian Guards and Voulgiers should be slower and more armoured (20 armour) by default with the option to increase their armour to 30ish or reduce it to unarmoured levels.
• Every shock infantry should have access to all types of weapon damage to let them tailor their class to the enemy.
• They should not have access to throwing weapons as that should be the skirmisher classes speciality
• They should not have access to pikes or spears as those should be reserved for the light and heavy infantry classes. Moreover, some 2 handed weapons actually fare well in fighting cavalry as it is.

Spoiler: Heavy Infantry

I want to start by saying that heavy infantry currently outshine all other infantry choices simply because of their ability to pick a versatile weapon line up with massive shields and lots of armour while still having two lives by default. The Khuzait are an exception as they lack in infantry in general, and the Aserai's Tribal Warrior fulfils this instead in their case as they do not have this class. Honestly, this is fine, they can function as a direct upgrade to the light infantry classes, but their cost must reflect this. I think boosting their cost up to 160-170 should be a good compromise.

Legionary
The best unit to start with really. The Empire lacks a light infantry unit(the recruit is arguably it) so the Legionary might actually be better staying at 150 gold. Their current perk choices:
Perk 1: Mace, Lighter Shield, Improved Armour
Perk 2: Spear, Pilas, Heavy Axe
Are actually quite solid but you'll never get the kind of set up you will be satisfied with. And by this I mean you will never get to have a spear for killing cavalry AND an axe for melting through shields, you'll not get improved armour and a better shield, you can end up with both an axe and a mace which leaves you with two one handed weapons but nothing else. So suggestions are:
Perk 1: Mace, Axe, Scutum
Perk 2: Improved Armour, Pilas, Spear
Scutum is just a better and more flavourable name than "Larger shield", it doesn't necessarily have to resemble a scutum. This gives a better line up for choosing your weaponry.

Sergeant
Again a really solid unit like the Legionary. The peasent levy class isn't exactly a reliable infantry unit but still, at least we have one to back up these guys. I would rather see a 2 handed pike option instead of a spear for these guys, and they should probably be a little lower on the armour(Vlandia as a faction has a lot of armour already) by default.
Perk 1: Mace, Axe, Pavise Shield
Perk 2: Improved Armour, Franceska, Pike
They can keep the Franceska as a flavourful throwing weapon, but they should only carry the one. Pavise Shield might be a bit overkill, but I think it fits.

Oathsworn
Slightly underwhelming compared to the previous two is the Oathsworn. Mostly due to it having no access to an improved armour perk and no access to a weapon to attack armour with. It does however move the fastest out of the heavy infantry classes. It might be cooler to do something like this:
Perk 1: Club, Axe, Lighter Shield
Perk 2: Increased Mobility, Javelins, Pike
Making the Oathsworn a pseudo medium infantry class that can outmaneouvre less skilled enemy heavy infantry players. Taking into account the Fiann is a superheavyarmoured archer I don't think it's a bad idea for Oathsworn to be less armoured. Javelins should be low count, maybe 3 at max. Currently the Lighter Shield perk doesn't actually give you

Varyag
These should literally just act as a direct upgrade to the Warrior class already available for Sturgia, and currently their perks and stats reflect that quite well. Not much out of place with this class:
Perk 1: Sword, Hammer, Large Shield
Perk 2: Improved Armour, Throwing Axe, Spear
I'm not sure how "in theme" it is having a hammer for the Varyag but if not just give them a mace and be done with it. Again, throwing axe quanitity should be at 1.

Spear Infantry
This class is horrible. It's slow, poorly armoured, and has a horrible weapon selection. Currently if you pick the throwing spears you get no side weapon! I understand that this class essentially has to carry Khuzait's infantry, with them lacking both skirmisher and shock infantry selections but it doesn't need to be this poor. It can be a truly frustrating experience being forced into play cavalry or archer as Khuzait just because their only decent infantry class is still so far behind everyone else. First things first, throwing spears should be a default weapon, the Ild should be a default weapon, and they should get slightly better armour than they do.
Perk 1: Mace, Axe, Stronger Shield
Perk 2: Improved Armour, Extra Throwing Spear, Long Spear
Armour should be buffed to about 30ish while improved armour puts it on par with Oathsworn at 40ish. Movement speed needs to be boosted right up as well to 78-79. This class isn't really a true heavy infantry but it should be a versatile option for those of us who enjoy playing infantry. I think if all of these changes were implemented it's cost could move up to 150 to balance that out too.

There isn't much to fix for Heavy Infantry because they are already mostly good, just some shuffling of perks and reducing throwing weapon counts. All Heavy Infantry will have longer than standard spears(That the light infantry get) to help counter cavalry. Just a light increase in cost will make this class a little less common on the field.

Spoiler: Light Archers

DISCLAIMER: I'm not really someone who plays archers a lot, so perhaps someone else can chime in here and give some better options or tell me if some of these changes are a bit drastic.

Light archers basically get outshined by their heavier brethren much like how light infantry are outshined by heavy infantry. Is the extra spawn really worth it? Actually they don't even get an extra spawn unless you saved up some gold. Most of the classes are pretty boring, just variations of melee weapons rather than variations of different bows or missles. They need shields by default like every other class does, if not by default, then a perk(but as I've said before, give a shield perk it will be the only thing picked, better just give by default). I would take the heavy bows from the heavy archer class of each faction and swap them with the light archers so they pack a punch, a glass cannon like class. Also the "Fast Arrows" perk, although temporary, should stay. It's really handy for hitting fast moving targets by having to lead by less. Some classes have spears as well for some bloody reason, which as I just explained you shouldn't need if you take Fast Arrows you can practically snipe cavalry players off their horse.

Archer Militia
This is weird, it's given the choice of Stronger Bow OR Stronger Arrows but not both at the same time. Ah but that's because of the fact this class chooses between Crossbow or Bow, and if you had Stronger Arrows in the 2nd tree then you could take a Crossbow with Stronger Arrows? Hm... showing the limitations of this system isn't it? Except you could just put the stronger bow in the 2nd tree... And put fast arrows in it's place in the first tree.
First draft:
PERK 1: Fast Arrows, Strong Arrows, Crossbow
PERK 2: Strong Bow, Shield, Strong Bolts
So much more interesting wouldn't you agree?

Arbelist
Pretty nice class overall, feels like a proper archer class.
PERK 1: Arbalest, Shield, Lighter Crossbow
PERK 2: Strong Bolts, Extra Bolts, Fast Bolts
Just some extra options removing the fluff of extra melee options when really you want extra ranged options!

Ranger
Wierdly enough this class has access to 2, 2 handed weapons. Give them the longbow by default.
PERK 1: Strong Longbow, Hunting Bow, Shield
PERK 2: Strong Arrows, Fast Arrows, Extra Arrows
Same flavour as the last 2, just more ranged options. Shortsword by default instead of an axe.

Hunter
Just give this class a shie- OH WAIT this one already has a shield perk! Shame it completely outshines the arrow choices then doesn't it. Give em a short bow by default that is a halfway happy medium between hunting bow and longbow.
PERK 1: Longbow, Shield, Hunting Bow
PERK 2: Extra Arrows, Strong Arrows, Fast Arrows
What's with giving these guys 2 handed weapons by the way? This class can keep the axe as it's sidearm as it's a Sturgian theme.

Steppe Bow
Again, not far off the mark, just needs a shield perk in the first tree and more arrow choices in the 2nd
PERK 1: Fast Bow, Strong Bow, Shield
PERK 2: Fast Arrows, Strong Arrows, Extra Arrows
This class is pretty awesome actually with the fast arrows and fast bow, pretty underrated. Sword by default not a mace.

Archer
No option for a faster bow and no option for a shield.
PERK 1: Fast Bow, Strong Bow, Shield
PERK 2: Fast Arrows, Strong Arrows, Extra Arrows
Also give them a sword by default instead of a mace.

Across the board all Light archers have 75 movement speed, which in some cases is the same as Heavy Archers or only one point extra. I think you could afford to buff this a little, or nerf the heavy archers speed a bit more. Their costs vary from 110-120, which is about right, the only class that should be changed is the Arbelist to 120 instead of 110.

Spoiler: Heavy Archers

DISCLAIMER: I'm not really someone who plays archers a lot, so perhaps someone else can chime in here and give some better options or tell me if some of these changes are a bit drastic.

These guys are the staple class of Skirmish right now, even if your aim is poor you can back this up with what is basically a pseudo heavy infantry class in disguise. Mostly to do with some of them getting access to shields(we won't take that away from them) that other classes can't even get (that should get.) and the fact that every single one has improved armour (other than khan's guard but he has 38 armour by default anyways) as a perk choice. Recently the prices were brought down on a lot of these classes which makes them super good value for their price. This was a mistake, they either can stay as they are and be put up to ideally 180 gold at a minimum or have some armour and versatility removed.

Palatine Guard
Not great to start with arguably the weakest heavy archer class to make my point but these guys lack a shield, and their melee option is limited to a sword or the *shudders* menavlion. I suggest:
PERK 1: Shield, Menavlion, Strong Bow
PERK 2: Strong Arrows, Fast Arrows, Extra Arrows
Probably still the weakest of the lot but the Empire excels in other areas to make up for it. Removing the improved armour perk leaves them at 32 armour as their only option which is a nice middle ground between heavy armour (50) and light (15).

Sharpshooter
From the worst to arguably the best. Their default armour is low but the only reason you would forgo improved armour perk is for the 95 damage Arbalest, which I've already suggested should be moved to the ACTUAL Arbelist class. These guys come with the massive pavise shield which is the best shield in the game really. Oddly gets an Awl Pike?
PERK 1: Heavy Crossbow, Shield, Bastard Sword
PERK 2: Strong Bolts, Fast Bolts, Extra Bolts
Again, removed the improved armour, 24 is pretty nice when they have that big shield already. Added the bastard sword as a nice option for a 2nd spawn and you can pick up a shield lying around, mostly to remove the Awl Pike and give them an actual weapon that helps them in close fights.

Fiann
Also arguably the best. Really strong bow and gets a 2 handed by default that is really strong(It completely outperforms the Voulgier's greatsword in everything except 13 less length). Apart from that it's quite straight forward, take improved armour and get 38 armour with a strong bow and strong sword. The falx isn't really worth it, the stronger longbow adds 6 points of damage for little trade off so it' worth keeping. Must add a shield, but I cannot think of anything that would be better than the default 2 handed sword as an upgraded melee option. How about:
PERK 1: Increased Mobility, Shield, Strong Longbow
PERK 2: Strong Arrows, Fast Arrows, Extra Arrows
Increased Mobility as before reduces their armour by 9(to 20) to boost their movement by 3, this is in theme with the Battanian troops having higher movement speed, and I've seen the Highborn Sons in singleplayer with cloaks which would suit this appearance perfectly.

Khan's Guard
This class has the highest default armour out of the heavy archers, but it can stay as Khuzait lack armour in general. It also comes with a shield perk which is in a different tree to the Glaive which leaves new players awkwardly using the two together. I'd leave the fast bow as well because it fits in with the Khuzait theme of volume of fire rather than quality.
PERK 1: Glaive, Shield, Faster Bow
PERK 2: Strong Arrows, Fast Arrows, Extra Arrows
Honestly quite balanced when you take into account the rest of the Khuzait troops are pretty poor.

Veteran
Again arguably the best in class, and far outshines other units Aserai has because of it's high armour. Quite a simple fix:
PERK 1: Strong Bow, Shield, Two Handed Sword
PERK 2: Strong Arrows, Fast Arrows, Extra Arrows
I thought giving them the two handed sword that the Guard gets would be pretty fun. The fact it convienently removes the improved armour perk is a bonus, I swear.

Yes,the 2nd perks are the same as the light archers for the most part, but that's because the arrows all involve some nice decision making:
-Extra arrows if you want to be less selective with your shots/more total damage potential
-Strong arrows for more damage per second(DPS) but less total damage potential
-Fast arrows for hitting fast moving or zigzagging targets easier and potentially faster damage per second as well
We could even see differences between factions for their arrows, for example letting the Battanians strong arrows be Bodkins for +6 damage where as Palatine Guards are Barbed for +3?

I didn't touch on ammo quanitity in the light archer section so I will touch on it now. Some classes have a weird thing where if they do not upgrade their arrows they will have 25 arrows, if they upgrade to fast or strong they get 5 extra arrows, and then with extra arrows they get +15. I'd see the following:
-Light archers by default or with Strong/Fast arrows have 30 arrows
-Heavy archers by default or with Strong/Fast arrows have 20 arrows
-Extra Arrow perk will increase by 50%, so for light archers they will have 45, heavies will have 30

I also mentioned in the light archer section about movement, either they should be faster or heavy archers should be slower. They shouldn't be the same speed, it doesn't make sense to call them light or heavy and have them move as fast as each other.

Continued on the 2nd post...

 

[Mabons]

Spoiler: Light Cavalry

Another class that's all out of whack, some light cavalry is quite strong and some are awful. Some get shields, some get throwing weapons, some get lances, some get tough mounts, some get good armour. I get that we want to have differences between the factions but for balanced competitive play this can't be like this. Light Cavalry should be fast, no lances, comfortable on foot as well on horse, throwing weapons for skirmishing, and absolutely must have shields. The result is a high octane class that is all hit and all run. Their horses should outrun heavy cavalry and be manourverable enough to dart around them and lone archers. They should definitely meet their demise when they hit a spear or take one too many missles though.

Talking about horses, some of the perk choices are just straight up upgrades compared to the defaults. Where the perk is almost done right is on the Battanian Mounted Warrior for example: The tougher horse has more HP and charge damage, but it has less speed. It also has more maneuoverability but that's a mistake if you ask me. You trade off speed(damage on horseback) for tankiness. This is the way it should be. That said the difference between a high speed and low speed, a highly maneuverable and not so maneuverable horse, a tough horse and a weak horse, is quite small, it should be more pronounced.

I feel like light cavalry should also share the same movement speed as heavy infantry, it's a little strange seeing people in light armour not able to keep up with heavy infantry on foot. I understand it's a balance choice but they aren't powerful enough on foot anyways.

Courser
Has the 2nd fastest horse in the game as a perk. Unfortunately it suffers from what I just mentioned, it's just an all round direct upgrade so there is no choice but take the better horse, so perhaps balance that by making the default horse tougher or making the faster horse weaker. Apart from that, the perks are quite nice and it shows because this is probably the best light cavalry class right now. I would replace the improved armour perk with something else, maybe a 2 handed kontos option?

Vanguard
Quite the heavily armoured "light" cavalry class we got here, with the correct perks 28 body armour and 30 horse armour is not to be scoffed at. I think those perks should be removed, it doesn't fit the "light" asthetic. Again the agile horse is just a straight upgrade so either make it weaker or make the default horse tougher. Same as the Courser it has access to everything the light cav class needs except it has a lance instead of throwing weapons.
PERK 1: Cavalry Mace, Agile Horse, Bastard Sword
PERK 2: Javelins, Shield, Kontos
Mace and shield for killing armoured archers, bastard sword and shield for killing light archers, agile horse and kontos for outplaying other cavalry or poking infantry in the back.

Mounted Warrior
Pretty nice as it is to be honest, if the longer spear was 2 handed option only it would fit better. As Battania lacks heavy cavalry this class can keep it's armour upgrades.(I'd go as far as buffing it's armour a little bit) It's mostly a cost and value issue with this class, it's 140 when every other light cavalry is 130. It should be the same.

Raider
The heavy axe perk is supposed to be shorter but it's actually longer. In any case it and the default axe are not long enough, needs to be at least 100 length. Again replace the improved armour perk, a 2 handed cavalry axe would fit the theme nicely here. (Also the perk says "Extra" throwing spears but it doesnt get any by default in the first place)

Nomad
Weird class, first off it has 3 horse options but none of them stand up to the Steppe Charger ( Charge Horse perk ), which sacrifices a measly 10hp for better all round stats than both other horses. Also just want to touch on the fact that the Mounted Archers have slow horses so you can catch them but then you give these guys bows and arrows with fast horses? Secondly they get the pathetically small short spear, give them the long spear as default and then a kontos as another perk option.
PERK 1: Tough Horse, Cavalry Mace, Kontos
PERK 2: Shield, Bow, Hafted Blade
They can keep the bow instead of getting throwing weapons(to keep in theme with the Khuzait), but it's ammo count should be 15 not 25. introduce the hafted blade that the Khergits got in Warband as a halfway to a Glaive sort of weapon. The tough horse should be like the current charger horse perk but the default horse should be faster and more maneuverable than it.

Beduin
This class used to be so perfect, one of my favourites in fact, but it was probably too strong having access to a shield, javelins, long spear and one handed on a fast horse. I would give the Beduin the camel by default to make it unique, with the option of the fast Nahasan horse. This would require the long spear to be a default weapon to use it from Camelback. A kontos or two handed spear that's slightly longer as a perk option like the other classes would suffice to replace it.
PERK 1: Kontos, Nahasan, Heavy Cavalry Sword
PERK 2: Shield, Javelins, Improved Armour
Again improved armour can stay here because Aserai as a faction lacks armour.

That's it for the light cavalry, you're probably wondering what the hell is the point in any of these changes when Heavy Cavalry is still so much stronger... well read on.

Spoiler: Heavy Cavalry

Straight off the bat, we are changing all heavy cavalry to cost 200. This way it's max ONE heavy cavalry spawn per round of Skirmish, it will no longer be self sufficient to take heavy cavalry out the walls in siege defence and spawn kill, and there will be less of the ****ers in TDM knocking everyone down in the middle of a fight. The cataphract was changed last (multiplayer) patch to be 200 cost and it's helped a lot to make fighting Empire feel fairer. On the other hand, they need to be tankier, lethal and versatile. I make these adjustments with hopefully a buff towards spears dealing with cavalry better, but if that doesn't come then they can probably just stay as they are. Most of them can keep the bow as it trades off the lance or long spear for that anyways, but as I said for the Nomad in the light cav section their ammo count should be reduced.

Cataphract
Needs a couchable lance by default, the difference between the horses is right, just needs to be a bit more drastic in difference. Small shield as a perk should be default and have access to a large shield(think the legionary one) by perk.
PERK 1: Agile Horse, Cavalry Mace, Battle Axe
PERK 2: Heavy Kontos, Bow, Large Shield
Bow or Kontos should replace default lance, Mace or Battle Axe should replace default sword. The Cataphract should have it's armour buffed to 55. It IS the ultimate tank in this games time period. It's horse armour should also be buffed slightly to 50 to make it the strongest horse armour around. On the other hand this guy should be like a turtle on his back when he is dismounted, his speed should be low as 70.

Knight
Horses are kind of strange, make the perk one do more charge damage as well and slower. Improved armour should be by default. Why the hell does a Knight have a javelin perk? Morning Star perk please instead of the mace. Longer lance perk as well. Again this class should just be a touch slower at 71.
PERK 1: Tougher Horse, Morning Star, Bastard Axe
PERK 2: Large Shield, Long Lance, Bastard Sword
I toyed with the idea of removing any default one handed weapon for the Knight but that would be pretty crap for new players not understanding why they haven't got a sidearm. The knight should have an arming sword by default and if he wants a longer weapon he can take one of the above perks. His main weapon is his lance and horse.

Druzhinnik
Horses are fine just need a bigger difference between the stats to really promote choice. I'd give the class barding by default, and replace that perk:
PERK 1: Tougher Horse, Large Shield, Cavalry Sword
PERK 2: Lance, Bow, Throwing Spear
Also buff the armour up to 43, just look at it compared to the Varyag default armour and ask yourself if they look equal?

Lancer
For the love of all that is holy, for a class that is called Lancer it sure does have a short one. Again horses are fine just need to be more brave with the differences in stats. Improved armour should be the default, and even then it could do with being bumped up to 44. Badly needs a shield by default.
PERK 1: Cavalry Mace, Large Shield, Tougher Horse
PERK 2: 2 Handed Lance, Bow, Glaive
Not much else to say.

Mamluke
Horses are again, fine, just needs to be more pronunciated with the stat differences(These are the fastest horses in the game). Maybe even an armoured camel would be cool here. Barding by default please, and buff the armour to 41. Kind of feels more like a medium cavalry unit which is fine, and maybe the only heavy cav that would be fair to reduce in price to 190.
PERK 1: Cavalry Mace, Large Shield, Tougher Horse
PERK 2: Kontos, Bow, Lance
Does the job.

Again, these changes are based on horse hitboxes being fixed, currently it seems the hitbox interferes with a lot of the swings and missles intended for the rider and instead the horse soaks it up.

You can probably tell I got a bit tired going into archers and cavalry, I'll probably come back and flesh them out a bit more in the future with extra reasoning or better perk selections etc.

Congratulations if you read all of this by the way.

 

[Swordnoob1]

I appreciate the fact that you summarized each class.
I pretty much agree with the fact that spear infantry is ****. Overall I don't really like how they butchered whole spear combat (feels like you have to rely most of the time on 2v1 situations apart from countering cavalery), while glaives are still obnoxious as in Warband.
Kind of boggles my mind that spear seems to have fairly decent hitboxes unlike glaives / menavlion.
Problem is lack of different choices you can make for each class, while very few remain in fairly good spot. Prices can be changed, damage/armour can be tuned, but it still feels like you have very little freedom in how can you adapt to certain scenarios.
Again, obvious solution would be adding more perks/choices, which pretty much takes us to the old system, hence why I fail to wrap my mind around why they decided current system is good.
It's just so much restricting that I have rough time to somehow force myself to find a way to like current form of MP.

 

[๖Kern]

The whole class system that we have now will not work properly, unless they want to remove the perks that gain a big advantage or make them cost additional gold.

 

[Mabons]

I pretty much agree with the fact that spear infantry is ****.

Oh dear don't let @Namakan catch you saying that.

Overall I don't really like how they butchered whole spear combat (feels like you have to rely most of the time on 2v1 situations apart from countering cavalery), while glaives are still obnoxious as in Warband.
Kind of boggles my mind that spear seems to have fairly decent hitboxes unlike glaives / menavlion.

The spears are great in fights right now, yeah against someone else better or evenly skilled you'll struggle to make it work but it's a noob stomper right now.

Problem is lack of different choices you can make for each class, while very few remain in fairly good spot. Prices can be changed, damage/armour can be tuned, but it still feels like you have very little freedom in how can you adapt to certain scenarios.

I guess the freedom is choosing the class for the situation but if you don't have the gold to choose the class then you're restricted.

Again, obvious solution would be adding more perks/choices, which pretty much takes us to the old system, hence why I fail to wrap my mind around why they decided current system is good.
It's just so much restricting that I have rough time to somehow force myself to find a way to like current form of MP.

Who knows. Like I said all we can do is give feedback as to which perks are doing nothing, which classes are overperforming for us personally and what classes are just not fun to play or play against.

The whole class system that we have now will not work properly, unless they want to remove the perks that gain a big advantage or make them cost additional gold.

What perks do you know that give a big advantage? Not trying to out you as a liar, I just don't think there are perks in classes that basically win the game.

 

[๖Kern]

What perks do you know that give a big advantage? Not trying to out you as a liar, I just don't think there are perks in classes that basically win the game.

Armoured horses were the thing I was thinking about. You shouldn't be able to straight-up pick a fully armoured horse.

 

[Mabons]

Armoured horses were the thing I was thinking about. You shouldn't be able to straight-up pick a fully armoured horse.

Unforunately that's one of the reasons behind Taleworlds choice of the class system, they want to see fully armoured knights and peasants fighting on the same battlefield. Besides it would be fine if the classes that are meant to stop said armoured horse actually worked.

 

[Scarf Ace]

Unforunately that's one of the reasons behind Taleworlds choice of the class system, they want to see fully armoured knights and peasants fighting on the same battlefield. Besides it would be fine if the classes that are meant to stop said armoured horse actually worked.

Gee, what if only the wealthiest knights could afford to armour their horses? ??

 

[AJAJP_Juan]

Very good changes overall, but heavily disagree with this:

boosting their cost up to 160-170 should be a good compromise.

There is so much you can do to make infantry both viable and powerful, and it will never justify the price you propose, they should stay at 140-150, and all archers across the board have their price increased instead, around 120-130, and heavy archers near the heavy cavalry cost, as they are pretty much better heavy infantry at the moment, and skirmishers will fill the role of cheap ranged units, having access to more throwing weapons than any other infantry class. This will of course be a problem to everyone who likes to get archers from the get go, especially in sieges (which by the way, I think archers got their price decreased just for the release of this gamemode)

 

[Mabons]

Very good changes overall, but heavily disagree with this:
There is so much you can do to make infantry both viable and powerful, and it will never justify the price you propose, they should stay at 140-150

No, heavy infantry right now choke all the life out of other infantry classes being picked. If we're going to limit heavy archers and heavy cavalry use then heavy infantry must also be limited.

, and all archers across the board have their price increased instead, around 120-130, and heavy archers near the heavy cavalry cost, as they are pretty much better heavy infantry at the moment,and skirmishers will fill the role of cheap ranged units, having access to more throwing weapons than any other infantry class. This will of course be a problem to everyone who likes to get archers from the get go, especially in sieges (which by the way, I think archers got their price decreased just for the release of this gamemode)

I totally agree, I have in both archer sections suggested that Light archers are 120 gold across the board and Heavy archers should start at 180 gold. Light archers could still be picked in Siege at 120 gold as long as you aren't too silly. Plus these changes overall would make the basic 100gold/90 gold light infantry classes a lot more attractive to play as they will have shields at least, so these changes would benefit siege in the long run.