SP - Battles & Sieges Circles & Squares are useless

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The balance is pretty strange to me it feels like archers counter cavalry and infantry without shields. While shielded infantry counter archers a bit counter intuitive.

incidently what the French actually did in the 100 Years War. They ditched the horses and advanced in heavy melee infantry configuration against the longbows because horsies dieing or crashing inside a cavalry charge was bad.

Not that this is what the game tries to emulate but still, heavy infantry with shields is what you would use, cav is for flanking, inciting panic in the rear and hitting routing troops
 
circle is usefull if you attacked by cavalry, especially against horse archers.
the circle means your infantry has shields at all sides to protect them and your archers fire in every direction

Something which needs a nerf is bows. The way archers massacre heavily armored troops is rediculous. Arrows should bounce off mail.
get some shields against arrows.
mail armor has a lot of holes in it, it is very weak against arrows and spears, it was basicly only usefull against swords. they usually combined it with a gambeson to protect against armor.
 
well that makes a lot of sense i just always thought of the rock paper scissors idea of infantry archers and cavalry
 
circle is usefull if you attacked by cavalry, especially against horse archers.
the circle means your infantry has shields at all sides to protect them and your archers fire in every direction


get some shields against arrows.
mail armor has a lot of holes in it, it is very weak against arrows and spears, it was basicly only usefull against swords. they usually combined it with a gambeson to protect against armor.

And disregarding history and RL for a while, as I said earlier in this thread I've tried it and it failed utterly. So I am curious if you actually made this work in the game for real?
 
And disregarding history and RL for a while, as I said earlier in this thread I've tried it and it failed utterly. So I am curious if you actually made this work in the game for real?
i have, you just need enough men, 2/3 of the cavalry that tries to charge trough loses momentum when they charge in, having not enough momentum to get out again they get killed by the men inside the circle. a circle of 10 men will not do much.
archers are a bit weaker but it even works for them (but like i said, not as good, expect to lose more of those)
 
i have, you just need enough men, 2/3 of the cavalry that tries to charge trough loses momentum when they charge in, having not enough momentum to get out again they get killed by the men inside the circle. a circle of 10 men will not do much.
archers are a bit weaker but it even works for them (but like i said, not as good, expect to lose more of those)

Ok, good it works for you. But in my experience the archers inside the circle won't fire as much, my guessing is that they get mechanically stuck as second, third, forth row easier compared to standing in a line, so can't fire from behind their comrades. You said in your post that the archers fire out, my experience is that they don't. My battles were made with hundreds of troops, ie 200 inf and 100 xbow men vs 100 horse archers, just to test and simulate. I used enough inf to make a big enough circle. perhaps the archers need to be put in a circle too? I put mine in a square to be able to fit them inside the infantry circle.

Anyways, long story short, ranged don't fire out consintly from inside a circle in my experience, thus it makes no sense using it. I'm not discussing how effecient melee is in circle, I'm only discussing the effeciency of having archers inside a circle of melee infantry and was curious to see if anyone had made it work á la Rome total war noob boxing.
 
I think the problem of spears are the clipping issues between the infantry lines. So the attack of lines behind the first can't attack and stop the enemy cavalry.
 
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The balance is pretty strange to me it feels like archers counter cavalry and infantry without shields. While shielded infantry counter archers a bit counter intuitive.
Its just the rock,paper,scissors formula perpetuated by most other games would indicate cav counters ranger, range counters melee, melee counters cav (depends on games specific mechanics and melee troop types) whereas Bannerlord puts you in the situation where attempting to flank range with cav in order to spare your melee may actually lead to more casualties though I’ve found a lot of success as long as I use Heavy Cav and just skirmish, you linger you die.
 
The balance is pretty strange to me it feels like archers counter cavalry and infantry without shields. While shielded infantry counter archers a bit counter intuitive.

That seems very accurate to me... unarmoured horses are quite susceptible to massed missile fire- unshielded men even more so. Han armies beat Xiongnu, Rome beat Parthians, etc. Massed missiles backed by some fast cavalry that waits until the enemies unarmoured cavalry is weakened/disordered from the missile volleys then charges out routing them/picking off stragglers. Bannerlord simulates this quite well- the main part where Bannerlord is still not getting it right is melee combat at the line where clipping, weird weapon ranges + too closely packed of soldiers makes numbers in the mob decide a fight in 10-20 seconds.

Shielded infantry counter unshielded infantry by blocking/re-directing the single weapon of the enemy and getting closing to finish while also are protected pretty well against archers.

Cavalry can wreck shielded infantry because it is quite awkward to use a spear/long weapon while holding a shield and a shield does virtually nothing against a horse while also being very heavy/awkward to raise high when a cavalryman is usually slashing/stabbing downwards from a height where shield are usually aimed to block against forward attacks not high attacks. Raising a shield and hiding behind it when arrows come raining down works- hiding behind a shield and blocking your own vision against a mobile and aggressive opponent does not work very well.

Unshielded infantry with a long weapon has the reach and rank depth+reach so 2-3 ranks are attacking incoming cavalry and can attack aggressively with both hands at higher speed/accuracy. Phalanx, Swiss pikemen, etc. Well organized pike formation can sometimes beat shielded infantry but once the infantry closes the distance... like Rome vs Greeks, Spanish sword&bucklers vs Pikes, etc then the Pikemen are usually at a disadvantage.

Almost all pikemen had ranged infantry in their ranks to weaken cavalry and other unshielded pike formations while armour in the late medieval got good enough that the front ranks of a pike formation were highly armoured and shields become less important. Swiss pikemen actually often attacked very aggressively in a column at a jog/run before an opposing pike formation could react thus overrunning them and avoiding the 'bad' battle of pikes. Swiss could manoeuvre more quickly due to long training and experience- approach an enemy pike formation at a brisk walk, turn and jog quickly to the side while ranged soldiers in the center/side of the Swiss pikes opened fire, then the main body of the Swiss would come in at an angle against the enemy pikes before the enemy could adjust the formation- usually, the enemy broke and ran when they realized they couldn't meet the Swiss in the correct formation.

What eventually brought down the Swiss was the introduction of rapid-firing and accurate artillery that could make a mess of approaching columns. When the Swiss had to try and change their formation into a long line to reduce the damage from cannon balls bouncing thru the ranks they lost all their mobility and weren't much better than opposing infantry as well the Swiss didn't add musketeers and combined arms with cavalry as the Spanish and eventually everyone else did because they had more limited population and economic resources.
 
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shield wall works for me. i saw my troops in the shield wall form a small arch with spears up against an incoming horse unit. the rider was knocked off instantly and then killed. my line was 2-3 deep.

during battles i avoid head on charges with my cav. I usually form a shield wall with archers behind them usually on a hill with unobstructed line of fire. sometimes the terrain does not allow this, so you set infantry line to loose to allow archers their line of fire and then form shield wall moments before they charge you. meanwhile i lead my cavalry to engage their cavalry, harass their range units, and once their infantry engages my shield wall my cav hammers them from behind.

if they have a lot of cav, find a good hill for your archers to slow down potential charges. then i usually bait their cav with my cav and run a route that leads them into my waiting shield wall backed by archers. the shield wall will break a little, but by that time my own cav has already turned around charged their cav, which is usually standing still trying to fight the shield wall.

when everyone is engaged i usually f1,f3. my recruiting priority is good cav and companion cav. recently added mounted archers since they are physically higher and hoping they have better line fo fire, we'll see
 
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Also skirmishing infantry with javelins work wonders against cav charges, just shieldwall them and they snipe charging horses and then stab the falling riders :grin:
 
also if you lack sufficient cavs and their cavs charge you, you can tighten up your line to present the minimal front surface area for their charge, column, square, hide behind rocks, whatever. once your front line units make their sacrifice and slow down their cavs, then engulf their cav with the rest of your infantry going back to line formation and f1+f3. of course, good archers help
 
Square I've found is useless, unless I'm trying to organize my troops on top of a high-ground (line and loose is too long, since they don't make enough rows). Problem is archers in the middle of the square sometimes don't fire. Circle I never use.

Right now the AI, when it has low relative strength, starts every battle in square formation with archers, and a circle of infantry around it. This sounds like a good strategy on paper, but I just circle around it on an aeseri horse emptying arrows into them. Eventually this causes them to break up and they just charge into the obvious trap I have set up for them.

What I've found works best in this game is counter-intuitive: you put your archers in the front line exposed in loose formation. They rain hell on the cavalry before they get close, and create a WW1-style killing field for everything. Then you tell infantry to advance ahead in a shield wall. If timed right they intercept any stragglers before they touch the archers. I feel like the cavalry should be able to charge down the archers, but archers seem more anti-cavalry than anything else honestly.

Those Menavliaton troops mentioned in the OP may work okay, but as a melee unit they die too quickly for front lines compared to shielded infantry. I just wind up spamming Legionaries for infantry and ignoring the Menavliatons for that reason. They really need to rebalance these.
 
so there is no way to stop cavalry playing as a "shielded spears units"
i spent +50 hours trying every "shielded" spear unit in captain mood
cavalry keeps dominating them
tried Circles, Squares, shield wall, charged them ahead

in the other hands,
2 handed spears are good to stop cavalry
like Menavliaton infantry

is this intended?
or it will be fix?
Circles and squares are for large forces with a wide zone of control. In smaller groups, these tactics just reduce the point of contact and lock soldiers into useless positions where there's nothing for them to fight at any given time.

A 3 rank formation (a line 3 ranks deep) is the best way to stop cavalry with small units, as cavalry penetrates the first line but not the second or third, resulting in successful contact with individual units as they charge
 
Circle is useful but square is indeed useless.

It would like it if the unit that is ordered into a circle stopped circling around to "face" the enemy, it's annoying as hell.
 
That seems very accurate to me... unarmoured horses are quite susceptible to massed missile fire- unshielded men even more so. Han armies beat Xiongnu, Rome beat Parthians, etc. Massed missiles backed by some fast cavalry that waits until the enemies unarmoured cavalry is weakened/disordered from the missile volleys then charges out routing them/picking off stragglers. Bannerlord simulates this quite well- the main part where Bannerlord is still not getting it right is melee combat at the line where clipping, weird weapon ranges + too closely packed of soldiers makes numbers in the mob decide a fight in 10-20 seconds.

Shielded infantry counter unshielded infantry by blocking/re-directing the single weapon of the enemy and getting closing to finish while also are protected pretty well against archers.

Cavalry can wreck shielded infantry because it is quite awkward to use a spear/long weapon while holding a shield and a shield does virtually nothing against a horse while also being very heavy/awkward to raise high when a cavalryman is usually slashing/stabbing downwards from a height where shield are usually aimed to block against forward attacks not high attacks. Raising a shield and hiding behind it when arrows come raining down works- hiding behind a shield and blocking your own vision against a mobile and aggressive opponent does not work very well.

Unshielded infantry with a long weapon has the reach and rank depth+reach so 2-3 ranks are attacking incoming cavalry and can attack aggressively with both hands at higher speed/accuracy. Phalanx, Swiss pikemen, etc. Well organized pike formation can sometimes beat shielded infantry but once the infantry closes the distance... like Rome vs Greeks, Spanish sword&bucklers vs Pikes, etc then the Pikemen are usually at a disadvantage.

Almost all pikemen had ranged infantry in their ranks to weaken cavalry and other unshielded pike formations while armour in the late medieval got good enough that the front ranks of a pike formation were highly armoured and shields become less important. Swiss pikemen actually often attacked very aggressively in a column at a jog/run before an opposing pike formation could react thus overrunning them and avoiding the 'bad' battle of pikes. Swiss could manoeuvre more quickly due to long training and experience- approach an enemy pike formation at a brisk walk, turn and jog quickly to the side while ranged soldiers in the center/side of the Swiss pikes opened fire, then the main body of the Swiss would come in at an angle against the enemy pikes before the enemy could adjust the formation- usually, the enemy broke and ran when they realized they couldn't meet the Swiss in the correct formation.

What eventually brought down the Swiss was the introduction of rapid-firing and accurate artillery that could make a mess of approaching columns. When the Swiss had to try and change their formation into a long line to reduce the damage from cannon balls bouncing thru the ranks they lost all their mobility and weren't much better than opposing infantry as well the Swiss didn't add musketeers and combined arms with cavalry as the Spanish and eventually everyone else did because they had more limited population and economic resources.

Very interesting thanks for the reply
 
Square I've found is useless, unless I'm trying to organize my troops on top of a high-ground (line and loose is too long, since they don't make enough rows). Problem is archers in the middle of the square sometimes don't fire. Circle I never use.
Dont forget that you can tighten or widen formations by holding left click amd dragging (kinda total war style). That way you can form a 4 line deep loose formation or whatever you need. Archers in a tight square obviously wont fire, because they need more line of sight / room.for shooting. A wide archer circle works pretty well against certain types though.
 
Dont forget that you can tighten or widen formations by holding left click amd dragging (kinda total war style). That way you can form a 4 line deep loose formation or whatever you need. Archers in a tight square obviously wont fire, because they need more line of sight / room.for shooting. A wide archer circle works pretty well against certain types though.
Thank you for that tip. I can now retract my original statement and say square is completely useless :smile:
 
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