BEAST - Bannerlord Early Access Skirmish Tournament

[Aeronwen]

Suggestions​

Please post your suggestions, questions and comments relating to BEAST#2 in this thread. Any substantive suggestion requiring an in-depth discussion would be better in a separate thread. We also look forward to any constructive criticism concerning BEAST#2

Feel free to comment on any aspect of the tournament but it remains the case that aspects of tournament administration are limited by the early access nature of the game.

...~x*

*x~...​

 

[Sharky1510]

Assuming that KW Dark is going to be promoted to Light, we are currently in a fairly unprecedented situation (AFAIK) with two teams from the same clan in Division A (KW Dark & Light), I would like to propose or at least start a discussion for the following:

Let KW Dark vs Light happen in the first week of the tournament. This way any discussion regarding intentionally winning/losing can largely be avoided as both teams have no idea of where they will end up at the end of the league.

Needless to say neither KW team would ever intentionally lose/win. I am just proposing this so any discussion regarding the topic can be avoided.

 

[The_Great_White]

Assuming that KW Dark is going to be promoted to Light, we are currently in a fairly unprecedented situation (AFAIK) with two teams from the same clan in Division A (KW Dark & Light), I would like to propose or at least start a discussion for the following:

Let KW Dark vs Light happen in the first week of the tournament. This way any discussion regarding intentionally winning/losing can largely be avoided as both teams have no idea of where they will end up at the end of the league.

Needless to say neither KW team would ever intentionally lose/win. I am just proposing this so any discussion regarding the topic can be avoided.

I do not believe in any of your teams intentionally winning/loosing aswell, therefore, I support this proactive approach to prevent future unhealthy discussions!

 

[Namakan]

Needless to say neither KW team would ever intentionally lose/win.

Huh, would've thought both teams would -intentionally- try to win

 

[Aeronwen]

Assuming that KW Dark is going to be promoted to Light, we are currently in a fairly unprecedented situation (AFAIK) with two teams from the same clan in Division A (KW Dark & Light), I would like to propose or at least start a discussion for the following:

Let KW Dark vs Light happen in the first week of the tournament. This way any discussion regarding intentionally winning/losing can largely be avoided as both teams have no idea of where they will end up at the end of the league.

Needless to say neither KW team would ever intentionally lose/win. I am just proposing this so any discussion regarding the topic can be avoided.

That is a good point.

The admin team have been discussing the starting fixtures but the discussion has been based more around whether the rotation should start with the highest seed against the lowest ( rough start for the lower seeds) or the highest seed against 2nd (possibly a final at the start).

Remembering that

• sign-ups are not closed yet,
• that some adjustments to divisions may need to be made in order to run as RR
• that we do not yet know the size of divisions

A RR with the two KW teams as a week 1 fixture would look something like this

1	2	KW Light	4
5	6	KW Dark	8

and then week 2 would be

1	5	2	KW Light
6	KW Dark	8	4

and so on to week 7

1	KW Light	4	8
2	5	6	KW Dark

This is an example, and depends on ending up with 8 teams in div A. It does seem like a reasonable compromise but if anyone has any concerns to share, now would be a good time to mention them.

 

[Piconi]

i don't actively participate in the competition nor organizational sides of this tournament, so this should be taken only as additional info.

As this tournament takes shape, it's looking more like a berger system league (single round robin variant).
Further, if we look up with to a similiar competition, tackling the same potential issue of affiliate teams competing in the same league, we can see how european footbal- spanish La Liga handled the situation with FC Barcelona primary squad, and Barcelona B. According to their rules, affiliate clubs can never play in the same league. So even though Barcelona B gained promotion to La Liga (first spanish division), it needs to remain in the Segunda (the second division), and the next team with the most points after Barselona B wins promotion instead of them (in case they are not an affiliate of a club already in the first division).

Next up, if Barcelona A ever gets demoted to second division, even if Barcelona B finishes first, it must go in 1 division lower than their A club. Saying that, if club A stays in division 1, club B can still get relegated to division C or lower unrelated.

All that being said, Barcelona B is de facto a reserve team to Barcelona A, and they can exchange players between themselves every gameweek freely as a compensation for the kind of relation with strict promotion/demotion rules.

All of this might be considered as too stiff or not fair to the team that won primotion, but i just tought i lay it out here.

 

[The_Great_White]

Regarding starting fixtures: Can't you just do radom fixtures all the way through? Since you're fighting every

i don't actively participate in the competition nor organizational sides of this tournament, so this should be taken only as additional info.

As this tournament takes shape, it's looking more like a berger system league (single round robin variant).
Further, if we look up with to a similiar competition, tackling the same potential issue of affiliate teams competing in the same league, we can see how european footbal- spanish La Liga handled the situation with FC Barcelona primary squad, and Barcelona B. According to their rules, affiliate clubs can never play in the same league. So even though Barcelona B gained promotion to La Liga (first spanish division), it needs to remain in the Segunda (the second division), and the next team with the most points after Barselona B wins promotion instead of them (in case they are not an affiliate of a club already in the first division).

Next up, if Barcelona A ever gets demoted to second division, even if Barcelona B finishes first, it must go in 1 division lower than their A club. Saying that, if club A stays in division 1, club B can still get relegated to division B unrelated.

All that being said, Barcelona B is de facto a reserve team to Barcelona A, and they can exchange players between themselves every gameweek freely as a compensation for the kind of relation with strict promotion/demotion rules.

All of this might be considered as too stiff or not fair to the team that won primotion, but i just tought i lay it out here.

I'm not very familar with football rules, if the team is forced to stay in the second divison, is the team which finished 2nd place, promoted to the first division then?

 

[Ikea Knight]

@Piconi
Hey man thanks for your input

I can't really go into the full length as I am on my mobile.
I don't think your proposed system would work. Different to professional football players, playing in BEAST is just for fun and prestige. So hindering a team from moving up just seems like an "unfun" idea
Additional division not only have the purpose of seperating the teams by numbers. Division are also supposed to keep the competition fair and fun.
If there was one team that would be vastly better than the rest of it's division, lots of matches would end up in a stomping 12/0.
We believe that's no fun for either side.
The progression matches are in place to weed out the competition. Just because you win a division, doesn't automatically mean you're good enough for the higher division. But in turn that also means that by winning a progression match, this team has established that it was too strong for the competition in it's prior division.

I know this is a special case, since Team Dark won the progression by default. But teams leaving will always affect the tournament negativly.

Nonetheless KW Dark has earned it's way into div A and I think not giving them a chance there would be unfair.


By the way when are you and the mod team joining the tournament?

 

[IceNoVa]

Imo the advantage of RR style tournament could help with the KW vs KW fixture and reducing the risk of any potentially controversial developments. Certainly we don't want the esports version of the disgrace of Gijón.
The drastic solution to limit a clans presence in a division to one team might be worth a shot with a larger player base, though certainly not before matches have a reward other than fun and prestige.
For now I'd be in favour of getting that sorted in the first match and see how the rest of the tournament works out from there.

By the way when are you and the mod team joining the tournament?

Pff, that would mean I'd have to play in one team with SvÄn, god no.

 

[Aprikosenmann]

New teams should not be forced to play in DivC
If a team can beat DivA in training matches they should start in DivA

 

[JakobvanBicke]

New teams should not be forced to play in DivC
If a team can beat DivA in training matches they should start in DivA

Well I'm split about that one. I think it gives teams, that have been in the tournament for multiple seasons already, a feeling of progress. If you advance from one Div to another it actually means something, cause others can't just join in on that one, but have to start at the bottom.
On the other hand it might lead to a bunch of stomps in the lowest Div. But considering we'll be playing RR this season that just means that there'll be 1 stomp for each team if there's 1 strong new team starting in Div C.

 

[Aprikosenmann]

Well I'm split about that one. I think it gives teams, that have been in the tournament for multiple seasons already, a feeling of progress. If you advance from one Div to another it actually means something, cause others can't just join in on that one, but have to start at the bottom.
On the other hand it might lead to a bunch of stomps in the lowest Div. But considering we'll be playing RR this season that just means that there'll be 1 stomp for each team if there's 1 strong new team starting in Div C.

Lets say a mediocre team plays in DivC for two seasons. After hard work they finally manage to advance to DivB. Now a new team comes around that 12-0s them every training match. And you would be satisfied to see this new team being forced to DivC?
What I want to say: If someone is better, hes just better. When you reach Top16 and a better team joins you drop to Top17 and dont deserve DivB anymore ...

 

[The_Great_White]

How should admins be able to determine wheather a new team has certain skill or not?

The easiest way is to let them start in div C. However, I partly agree with you, especially for new teams starting in C or D, it will be frustrating to experience a good team coming in and stomping everyone. If you let new teams start in B tho, actual new teams are getting destroyed in that division aswell.

Not sure if this is stupid nonsense or not, but if TW is indeed implementing a ranked system, you could try to build divisions around that. So a very good team that is beating div a teams, should ideally have a rank that represents their strength to the point that they can join in the first division

Just me throwing some thoughts in really

 

[Waljaaa]

I get what you mean but tbh what if there's no open spots in division A or B? Are you just going to demote a team that has fought hard to stay in these divisions to a lower one?
Even if theres a spot in one of these divisions, shouldn't a team that fought hard to get their promotion but just nearly didn't get it get the preference over a team that hasn't even proven itself in an official tournament?
Let those new teams earn their promotion to another division I'd say.

 

[Aeronwen]

New teams should not be forced to play in DivC
If a team can beat DivA in training matches they should start in DivA

well just renaming an existing team does not make it a new team.
And as Erminas pointed out last tourney there is also the issue of for example div A players moving into a lower div team.
Admins will take all these into consideration as far as possible.

Since we are using the player requested RR this time we may have to move some (a very few) teams between divisions to make that work. Obviously we will work to make it as fair as possible.

Remember though, if a truly unknown team comes into the lowest div and quickly works their way to the top through skill, that is the system working as intended.

Atm we have about 35 teams signed up, about 10 of which didnt play in the last tournament. I don't know about you, but I am very happy to see more players joining the Bannerlord competitive community.

 

[Silvernj]

Well, make sense that if a new top team appears it should somehow be placed in a higher division.
To do that I would lock division for players and not for teams at the end of a season. Let's say a team needs 60% of players from A division to stay in it. So if players decide to shuffle rosters stronk teams will still play in A or B division.

 

[Aeronwen]

Well, make sense that if a new top team appears it should somehow be placed in a higher division.
To do that I would lock division for players and not for teams at the end of a season. Let's say a team needs 60% of players from A division to stay in it. So if players decide to shuffle rosters stronk teams will still play in A or B division.

I take the point but there is no formula that will work for all players/teams in all divisions. There will always be cases that dont fit the rule.

Generally teams will play in the divisions they finished in last time. For special cases admins will take a view, not everyone will agree with that view but in the end a decision has to be made (and made quickly).

 

[The Last Vandal]

@Aeronwen hello. I was surprized with your reply to our roster update. Could you explain reasons why Forsee can't be added?

 

[Aeronwen]

@Aeronwen hello. I was surprized with your reply to our roster update. Could you explain reasons why Forsee can't be added?

We are not saying he cannot be added, we are simply taking a little time to consider the situation and whether we should take any extra action.

 

[Erminas]

Well, make sense that if a new top team appears it should somehow be placed in a higher division.

How does that make sense?
In every sport newly made team starts in the lowest division possible. Then they have to earn their promotions just like the rest of us. No privileges should be given to new teams, no matter how strong their roster may be, in a tournament system that has promotions and demotions.
If they want to be in better division well I guess they should stick together for longer period of time (2-3 tourneys) and show everyone that they do belong in those divisions. Rather than following the trend of reforming new teams for new season. Consistency is what we should be looking for in these tourneys. So, no they shouldn't be granted any special treatment because if done so, it's disrespectful to the teams that did earn their promotion or did earn their place in certain division.

Lets say a mediocre team plays in DivC for two seasons. After hard work they finally manage to advance to DivB. Now a new team comes around that 12-0s them every training match. And you would be satisfied to see this new team being forced to DivC?
What I want to say: If someone is better, hes just better. When you reach Top16 and a better team joins you drop to Top17 and dont deserve DivB anymore ...

I can understand why you see these things that way from your perspective (of a player that plays for top team), but there is so much wrong things written here in this post that my reply would be quite long:p
So, I will keep it short and just once again stress out that: No, They (New team) don't deserve any special treatment no matter how good they are. If they are better, well let them prove that without disbanding/ragequitting for what 2 seasons max?