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BEAST - Bannerlord Early Access Skirmish Tournament

BEAST is the first Bannerlord Skirmish tournament in Europe.

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[BEAST#3] Suggestions

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mrArgentum

Sergeant
I suggest to delete khuzaits from rotation in next tournaments. There is nearly impossible to win playing as them against equal or even slightly worse team. There is a lot of draws because of them.
 
I suggest to delete khuzaits from rotation in next tournaments. There is nearly impossible to win playing as them against equal or even slightly worse team. There is a lot of draws because of them.
@hoonii from my clan would definitely back you up on that one.
I, personally, want to see how 1.5.5 impacts Khuzait and then make my call. As of right now they're just bad, though. If they don't improve by quite a bit it's actually fair to ban them from the tournament, as playing with them is basically a 100% secure loss.
 

mrArgentum

Sergeant
@hoonii from my clan would definitely back you up on that one.
I, personally, want to see how 1.5.5 impacts Khuzait and then make my call. As of right now they're just bad, though. If they don't improve by quite a bit it's actually fair to ban them from the tournament, as playing with them is basically a 100% secure loss.
They are even nerfed in 1.5.5
 

TheBard

Salt Knight
Sergeant Knight at Arms
I suggest to delete khuzaits from rotation in next tournaments. There is nearly impossible to win playing as them against equal or even slightly worse team. There is a lot of draws because of them.
While I do agree with you, I'd say Sturgia is then the next faction to be the 'losers'.

They are even nerfed in 1.5.5
I think you're right on this, but we will have to see how meta develops around the archery changes to make definite judgement I guess.
 

hoonii

Sergeant at Arms
I suggest to delete khuzaits from rotation in next tournaments. There is nearly impossible to win playing as them against equal or even slightly worse team. There is a lot of draws because of them.
Couldn't agree more.
If I were to speak frankly; including Khuzait in the matchups was a completely stupid idea. They underperform in EVERYTHING, they have no chance against empire or vlandia or battania(you need to be very skilled to get a draw).
1.5.5 Khuzait cavalry will smile for once because nomad will be the best light together with the camel imo and lancer is getting a lance buff too, but nothing for the rest, moreover removing the mace from the spear infantry... They are in need of a buff ASAP and they shouldn't have been included in the matchups until they were buffed.
While I do agree with you, I'd say Sturgia is then the next faction to be the 'losers'.
Sturgia had one good thing; throwing axes, but they're getting removed from the varyag now and sturgia is nearing the same fate as the Khuzait, an infantry based faction's infantry will underperform compared to others, Khuzait's(a cavalry/horse archer based faction) still underperforms in cavalry aspect.
Sorry if I went off-topic xx.
 

Livso

Recruit
I have one suggestion but im pretty sure ill meet with hate and its completely pointless even suggesting this.

Banning throwing axes on cav

This is ofc not the only drop of throwing weapons, for example there is empires pila but tbh, the pila is one and its easier to see where the person is aiming and if he misses it, he lost a pila for his team and potentially gave it to the enemy team.

The problem i have with throwing axes is, you can barely see where the person is aiming, the damage to unarmored horse is ridiculous and especially against factions this week (khuzait,aserai) they are devastating.

The next suggestion i have is, if you roll two same factions in one week, please, just re-roll it, its starting to be quite boring to play all the time same factions.
 

TheBard

Salt Knight
Sergeant Knight at Arms
I have one suggestion but im pretty sure ill meet with hate and its completely pointless even suggesting this.

Banning throwing axes on cav

This is ofc not the only drop of throwing weapons, for example there is empires pila but tbh, the pila is one and its easier to see where the person is aiming and if he misses it, he lost a pila for his team and potentially gave it to the enemy team.

The problem i have with throwing axes is, you can barely see where the person is aiming, the damage to unarmored horse is ridiculous and especially against factions this week (khuzait,aserai) they are devastating.

The next suggestion i have is, if you roll two same factions in one week, please, just re-roll it, its starting to be quite boring to play all the time same factions.
But but but... Aserai is fun... Isn't it?? Isn't it???
 
Add Map Nr. to the picture. Cuz TW: cOsMeTiC ChAngE iS lOw PrIorItY
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Forsee

Veteran
It was a nice season, GGs to everyone!
I suggest to change a bit enemy selection in div D. Due to the wide spread of divD skill level, most of the games were one sided. IMO on the last 2 weeks we (HINQII) should have played with runner-ups, even though we played with them 1 or 2 weeks before. I know it might be struggling to face 1-2 teams over and over again, but it will help to surely determine the winner (runner ups had no chance to win after we played with them, they had no more games with us and their only hope was that we lose to the team htat has less points). It will also make games more fun, team with the top score will play wtih the runner-up, team from the middle will play with it's closest opponent.
I see why you don't want us to play with the same team over and over again, but we are playing tournaments mostly to enjoy the game and for it's competitive spirit, so you better let us play with our closest opponents, at least in divD
 
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It was a nice season, GGs to everyone!
I suggest to change a bit enemy selection in div D. Due to the wide spread of divD skill level, most of the games were one sided. IMO on the last 2 weeks we (HINQII) should have played with runner-ups, even though we played with them 1 or 2 weeks before. I know it might be struggling to face 1-2 teams over and over again, but it will help to surely determine the winner (runner ups had no chance to win after we played with them, they had no more games with us and their only hope was that we lose to the team htat has less points). It will also make games more fun, team with the top score will play wtih the runner-up, team from the middle will play with it's closest opponent.
I see why you don't want us to play with the same team over and over again, but we are playing tournaments mostly to enjoy the game and for it's competitive spirit, so you better let us play with our closest opponents, at least in divD

This is how BEAST 2 was organised but we had a few loud voices saying we should not have repeat matches, so BEAST 3 was organised with no repeat matches. No repeat matches means more unequal matches. Imo not repeating the last week is enough.
 
This is how BEAST 2 was organised but we had a few loud voices saying we should not have repeat matches, so BEAST 3 was organised with no repeat matches. No repeat matches means more unequal matches. Imo not repeating the last week is enough.
Forsee has a little confused because last weeks few our div teams ask our team for training matches and we played them. We have intense last week trying to end all matches before end of year xD
But he is right about annoying unequal matches at last part of tournament.
Maybe in the future you can use elimination system for lower division. But it's also not a perfect decision.
From our position repeating most closest matches on other maps/factions set-ups sounds more interesting for high PTS teams and this way we will have more clear competition excluding unbalanced factions matchup etc.
Anyway it's a free tournament at early access so it's more important to play fun and interesting matches than just won. From this point of view repeating equal matches sounds more fun for both sides than almost default matches between high and middle PTS teams like it was last 3 weeks in division D.
Also giving default win for missed matches maybe sounds good but it's not competitive way. It's work for stronger teams but for weaker teams it means they will play next few matches against teams who have 12:0 victories in their matches. And this situation not funny for both sides.
And last but still important thing is division balance. For example our team have few players who was used to play in previous Beast season in other teams (HINQ main team, OD and Dasein). But we all playing vs new tournament participants. Maybe it's our mistake that we didn't ask for moving into higher division at the start of season but we didn't know anything even about divisions quantity before tournament started. I think in next season you need to ask teams about preferred division like it was in signups of Beast#2.

But yeah. Anyway it was interesting season with few closed matches and many good teams. GGs.
 
Forsee has a little confused because last weeks few our div teams ask our team for training matches and we played them. We have intense last week trying to end all matches before end of year xD

But he is right about annoying unequal matches at last part of tournament.

Maybe in the future you can use elimination system for lower division. But it's also not a perfect decision.

From our position repeating most closest matches on other maps/factions set-ups sounds more interesting for high PTS teams and this way we will have more clear competition excluding unbalanced factions matchup etc.

Anyway it's a free tournament at early access so it's more important to play fun and interesting matches than just won. From this point of view repeating equal matches sounds more fun for both sides than almost default matches between high and middle PTS teams like it was last 3 weeks in division D.

Also giving default win for missed matches maybe sounds good but it's not competitive way. It's work for stronger teams but for weaker teams it means they will play next few matches against teams who have 12:0 victories in their matches. And this situation not funny for both sides.

And last but still important thing is division balance. For example our team have few players who was used to play in previous Beast season in other teams (HINQ main team, OD and Dasein). But we all playing vs new tournament participants. Maybe it's our mistake that we didn't ask for moving into higher division at the start of season but we didn't know anything even about divisions quantity before tournament started. I think in next season you need to ask teams about preferred division like it was in signups of Beast#2.


But yeah. Anyway it was interesting season with few closed matches and many good teams. GGs.

The problem with elimination is that some teams get fewer matches overall.

There is definately a place for elimination tournaments and I do think they should occur alongside other tournaments but we also want everyone to be able to take part and play as much as possible. Maybe start a thread to discuss different formats and the pros and cons of each?

As I have said many times before I do think that more equal matches are more fun for everyone and if we are using a ladder system that can only be achieved if we allow rematches.

There are other options though. But every option has advatages and disadvantages. perhaps the best thing is to have another dedicated discussion on what format teams would like to play next time.

What would be the alternative to giving 12-0 to a team whose opponent didnt turn up?

Divisions were (mostly) arranged by the resulting position in the previous tournament. Where we had gaps in a division we tried to fill them with teams that agreed to move into that division (A was hard to fill).

In BEAST 2 teams were put into the divisions they requested and tere were a lot of complaints about teams being in the wrong division. Unity for instance asked for div A but then left teh tournament when they could nto compete there. Some teams like to be the strngest in a lower division, making the torunament less fun fo rthe teams they stomp. Using the final standings from the last division seeems to be the most objective way of doing it. Where teams reform or players move there is little we can do except make out best guess, unless we keep a database of all players perceived skill.
 
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TheBard

Salt Knight
Sergeant Knight at Arms
To solve the stomping issue in Div D just adapt the rematch rule. That way there are less stomps and there is more competition for the top if the top teams have to rematch.

Ofc one could say my view is biased due to our second team being now on place three, but on the other hand they're more or less bound to stay there since the "top dogs" of the league are not facing each other again.
 
If you compare the first five weeks of div c in the last season, you notice that there are 21 clutches, while in this season, only 19 clutches happened during the first five weeks.

Imo, the reason this is happening is because of the small community. Most people play since alpha / beta and new teams have a hard way entering the competitive scene. Taking CRBR as the prime example here. Remember that this division is (in the future) for new teams, so I'd prefer a RR system, atleast to get everyone known to each other. Once the scene grows larger (if it ever does) I think, we'll see a more number of close matches.
And, as it was pointed out on the general forum section, there might be the need for a small guide collection about basic stuff of the game, stuff that we all with our thousands of warband hours know, but someone, that enters after buying his first M&B title, has no clue about
 
If you compare the first five weeks of div c in the last season, you notice that there are 21 clutches, while in this season, only 19 clutches happened during the first five weeks.

Imo, the reason this is happening is because of the small community. Most people play since alpha / beta and new teams have a hard way entering the competitive scene. Taking CRBR as the prime example here. Remember that this division is (in the future) for new teams, so I'd prefer a RR system, atleast to get everyone known to each other. Once the scene grows larger (if it ever does) I think, we'll see a more number of close matches.
And, as it was pointed out on the general forum section, there might be the need for a small guide collection about basic stuff of the game, stuff that we all with our thousands of warband hours know, but someone, that enters after buying his first M&B title, has no clue about

you are comparing BEAST2 div C with BEAST3 div D? There was a wider variation in BEAST 2 div C skillwise, having 4 divs would have reduced that. In addition there was no previous tournament seeding to go by. So a direct comarison is not legitimate.

Unless there is a lucky coincidence of team numbers or we turn teams away we cannot have a RR in div D. It is not good for the scene if we turn teams away.


reapys infantry primer is still brilliant after all these years - maybe he will update it for Bannerlord...
Then there are my modest (and faulty) useful keys and fun with flags guides. What other guides would be useful? maybe we could start a list and people would make them.
 

Horatius

Sergeant
WBNWVC
What you could do is split div D in multiple poules where you do RR and then do another poule.

So if you have 16 teams you can split it up in 4 poules of 4, 3 matches with RR.
Then the 4 number 1s of the poules get put in a poule of 4 and fight another 3 matches with RR.

The amount of teams and size of pools is variable of course.
In an ideal situation, this leads to unique matches with plenty of promotion opportunities.

To make this work you first need to divide all the teams into groups (A,B,C,D). A is the best, D is the worst.
For every group, you pick one of A, one of B, one of C and one of D.

This is somewhat how the World Championship is done and maybe is a viable option?
 
What you could do is split div D in multiple poules where you do RR and then do another poule.

So if you have 16 teams you can split it up in 4 poules of 4, 3 matches with RR.
Then the 4 number 1s of the poules get put in a poule of 4 and fight another 3 matches with RR.

The amount of teams and size of pools is variable of course.
In an ideal situation, this leads to unique matches with plenty of promotion opportunities.

To make this work you first need to divide all the teams into groups (A,B,C,D). A is the best, D is the worst.
For every group, you pick one of A, one of B, one of C and one of D.

This is somewhat how the World Championship is done and maybe is a viable option?

so like BEAST1 then?

The reason some people don't tend to like this option is the group stage consists of very unequal matches. then once you finish the groups and go into KO the teams that are out don't have anything to do.
 

Horatius

Sergeant
WBNWVC
so like BEAST1 then?

The reason some people don't tend to like this option is the group stage consists of very unequal matches. then once you finish the groups and go into KO the teams that are out don't have anything to do.
No KO just another poule so everyone plays the same amount of matches.

Yes the first poule would be quite hard but also the chance to prove yourself and is only 3 matches where at least 1 should be fairly equal.

I don't know how BEAST1 worked.
 
No KO just another poule so everyone plays the same amount of matches.

Yes the first poule would be quite hard but also the chance to prove yourself and is only 3 matches where at least 1 should be fairly equal.

I don't know how BEAST1 worked.

BEAST 1 had teams initially seeded into 4 pots, then teams were randonmly seleted, 1 from each pot to be put into a group of 4. They then played a 3 week RR with their groups. the top 2 from each group went into a single elim and the lower 2 in each group went into a ladder.

teams who were out early in the single elim had little to do and some did not want to play placing matches.

BEAST 2 was a ladder with no back to back rematches. As the ladder sorted teams obviously played the teams closes in skill to them again and there were complaints about this and a request for RR.

Now we have complaints about RR as teams are playing against teams that are higher in skill.

To some extent that i sthe trade off, we either have repeat matches or a skill distiction.

The other variation we can try is more but smaller divisions. If we did this I think we would need to devise a way for teams new to the tournament to quickly go up more than one division and the tournament would be sorter - which I think is a good thing. I think we have 36 teams atm which would lend itself to 6 divisions of 6, the lowest div would have to be open to new teams so again it might have to be a ladder with no rematches.

The problem with doing the above is that promotions at the end of this tourney are meaningless as the teams would be placed in teh new divisions in the order in which they finish this tourney. If we decided this now we could make some promotion matches with teh next tournament (with divisions of 6) in mind though.
 
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