Arrows don't inherit the lateral velocity of the riders that loose them

[Will Greaves]

In my college archery class, we performed an exercise in which we simulated horse archery by sitting in a wheelchair, shooting while being rapidly wheeled laterally relative to the target. We discovered that even at modest speeds, e.g. that of an average human jog, the lateral velocity meant that you had to 'lag' the target quite a bit. That is, if you are looking at the target and moving to your right, then you have to aim to the left of the target in order to hit it. This is because, in real life, your projectiles inherit your velocity (relative motion and all that).

In Bannerlord, there doesn't seem to be any such lateral momentum. Discounting random spread ('cone of fire') and arrow drop, you need to aim directly at a stationary target in order to hit it, even while moving perpendicular to the target at high speed.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Exactly, the funny thing is that in Bannerlord you don't shoot arrows but rail gun projectiles.

 

[Will Greaves]

Well... I posted this thread in support, and it just got moved here. I guess that's, uh, bad news for the chances of this physics problem being fixed.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Well... I posted this thread in support, and it just got moved here. I guess that's, uh, bad news for the chances of this physics problem being fixed.

I am certainly not surprised. There's so much inconsistency in terms of archery that I don't know where to start... and it's not for lack of feedback.

The targeting cameras are certainly a step backwards in my eyes; in warband they were better in both first person and third person.Also the reticle fade has been removed, in warband the reticle would disappear while on horseback if you didn't use the draw/action just like in the 2016 sergeant videos for Bannelrod. Later this was removed (deliberately), going for a 100% visible reticle in assault rifle style.

Animations with dubious ergonomic positioning, excessive canter, projectile velocity, arrow drop, damage type, firing frequency, draw time and other inconsistencies like the one you mention. As for archery/horseback archery, Bannerlord is basically pEw PeW gO cRaZy BerZerKeR fUn tImE.

 

[Ikea Knight]

I personally would like that change.

But I wonder if it was hard to implement. And I also wonder if it would be liked in general.
I can imagine that it makes aimimg a lot harder in multiplayer but even for singleplayer it might be really odd if you're new to that mechanic.
I think I haven't seen that in any game I played before.

Gamers in general are really conditioned to certain mechanics in the game. Best example is the exploding des barrel you find in almost every action game. But another thing we don't even notice anymore is movement with WASD-keys.

So having a new mechanic that's newer been done before or rather been done the opposite way might be really hard to get used to.


-actually I remember I have played games where material velocity is a thing.
Space Simulations like Star Citizen. The thing is here, you still get a sight that tells you were you exactly have to aim.
So the lateral velocity is calculate for you.

 

[Mad Vader]

To be fair, Warband had railgun projectiles too, and it made player horse archery viable. There's enough going on with a moving target and your inherent inaccuracy based on skills, you don't need the hassle of your velocity vector being a factor too.
That said, the horse archer build was optimal in Warband, so increasing the difficulty of horse archery (your velocity matters, but you have a predictive aiming reticle) would have increased the player skill requirement somewhat, making the build harder to exploit.

But another thing we don't even notice anymore is movement with WASD-keys.

If you are not strafe-jumping to work, you are not living your life.

 

[Ikea Knight]

If you are not strafe-jumping to work, you are not living your life.

I am more of a bunny hopper.

 

[Oakenlix]

That said, the horse archer build was optimal in Warband

For the early game - yes, it was the easiest to start with. Middle/late game it's far from optimal, your killing rate with bow is very limited compared to melee characters.

 

[ratschbumm]

And do not forgive that lateral velocity of an arrow will be conversed into travelling with skidding (fletching braking greater than arrowhead), and therefore always hit with angle.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

@Will Greaves

Do you know what? The parameter exists and can be adjusted .

It is currently set to a very low value, evidently to allow for an arcade pew pew. The parameter in question is found in native_parameters with name missile_launch_perpendicular_speed_effect_ratio.

I couldn't resist and I've been testing it for a while. Here you have a video test where this value has been modified. However, I took the opportunity to add to the test my little tweak Nostalgia Camera Tweak (born of necessity / for me is essential) where I modify the cameras, but I also wanted to test:

- Shot animation (as I commented here).
- Bow values as item with thrust_speed, speed_rating, missile_speed="78" (as I commented here)

​

Native​

Modified​

<native_parameter id="missile_launch_perpendicular_speed_effect_ratio" value="0.2"/> Item id="composite_steppe_bow" : thrust_speed="87" speed_rating="89" missile_speed="78" <action type="act_ready_bow_horseback" animation="ready_bow" /> <action type="act_ready_continue_bow_horseback" animation="ready_continue_bow_horseback" /> <action type="act_ready_continue_bow_shake_horseback" animation="ready_continue_bow_horseback" /> <action type="act_release_bow_horseback" animation="release_bow_horseback" /> <action type="act_reload_bow_top_horseback" animation="reload_bow_top_horseback" /> <action type="act_reload_bow_right_horseback" animation="reload_bow_right_horseback" />

<native_parameter id="missile_launch_perpendicular_speed_effect_ratio" value="1.5"/> Item id="composite_steppe_bow" : thrust_speed="60" speed_rating="62" missile_speed="50" <action type="act_ready_bow_horseback" animation="ready_bow" /> <action type="act_ready_continue_bow_horseback" animation="ready_continue_bow" /> <action type="act_ready_continue_bow_shake_horseback" animation="ready_continue_bow" /> <action type="act_release_bow_horseback" animation="release_bow" /> <action type="act_reload_bow_top_horseback" animation="reload_bow_top" /> <action type="act_reload_bow_right_horseback" animation="reload_bow_right" /> + Nostalgia Camera Tweak

I feel that an adjustment of this value could solve two problems at once, both for the use of mounted archery for MP environments (raising the skill for its use) and for SP and AI.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

@Terco_Viejo once again you're modified version looks so good.

 

[Will Greaves]

Wow! Maybe you should create a new thread in support, titled something like "missile_launch_perpendicular_speed_effect_ratio value is too low." Maybe that one wouldn't get tossed out like mine did (possibly because I put too much preamble).

 

[Terco_Viejo]

@Terco_Viejo once again you're modified version looks so good.

Thank you my friend, I think so too .

Wow! Maybe you should create a new thread in support, titled something like "missile_launch_perpendicular_speed_effect_ratio value is too low." Maybe that one wouldn't get tossed out like mine did (possibly because I put too much preamble).

For the sake of a debate on the subject and to bring together thoughts and opinions of other users, I think the best idea is to continue using this thread if you don't mind of course.

Maybe to other users the modified values seem too punitive, personally I would like to hear different opinions to mine (ours). And as I'm afraid it's a design issue from Taleworlds side, maybe here feedback can be provided in the form of test+opinions in a "nicer" way than directly in support.

 

[Will Greaves]

I'm pretty sure they don't notice threads outside of the support forum. At least, not any of the people responsible for fixing problems (or bringing problems to the attention of those who fix problems).

 

[Midnitewolf]

Remember guys. The base game kind of or sorta needs to accommodate the least common denominator. I have a friend who I thought would absolutely love this game because he is just as much into the middle ages warfare as I am yet he only played around 40 minutes before quitting the game for good. I asked him why and he said, "This game just requires too much twitch, hand eye coordination. I just didn't have any fun because I couldn't ever hit anything with my weapons."

Point is, make it too much "skilled based" and there are a lot of people who will bail and/or just not by the game.

Which brings me back to my favorite saying, "Mods will save to day". Some one, somewhere will want archery to be more realistic and will mod the game to make archery more realistic and those wanting this will be able to customize their gaming experience with this mod.

I'm pretty sure they don't notice threads outside of the support forum. At least, not any of the people responsible for fixing problems (or bringing problems to the attention of those who fix problems).

Actually the developer, Mexxico, reads the general discussions quite often. He even PM'ed me directly to address a complain I was having about the AI's and Wars and asked me for my game saves and more info. However, I think he is really the only one that does this and he is leaving Taleworlds in about 3 months.

 

[D0c1]

he said, "This game just requires too much twitch, hand eye coordination. I just didn't have any fun because I couldn't ever hit anything with my weapons."

i'm struggling to understand this. new people struggle to master blocking, yes.

but this is the first time i've seen this complaint.

 

[Lord Irontoe]

Remember guys. The base game kind of or sorta needs to accommodate the least common denominator. I have a friend who I thought would absolutely love this game because he is just as much into the middle ages warfare as I am yet he only played around 40 minutes before quitting the game for good. I asked him why and he said, "This game just requires too much twitch, hand eye coordination. I just didn't have any fun because I couldn't ever hit anything with my weapons."

Point is, make it too much "skilled based" and there are a lot of people who will bail and/or just not by the game.

I'm sure you're right about that. I'm embarrassed to admit that I came very close to giving up on Warband before I even got out of the first training field tutorial. I couldn't hit those goddamn pumpkins to save my life. Thankfully I decided to stick with it and here I am 5000+ hours later.

But things like this could easily be part of the difficulty settings. It shouldn't be that hard for them to tune an arcade style mode for easier settings and much more challenging mode for veteran players with weapon physics adjustments like these and the great combat ai we saw at launchtime. Then everyone's happy.

They'll never do that, though, given that the rationale they recently gave for replacing the battle size slider with presets is they think players are too dumb to understand "more troops onscreen = worse performance".

 

[Mad Vader]

yet he only played around 40 minutes before quitting the game for good. I asked him why and he said, "This game just requires too much twitch, hand eye coordination. I just didn't have any fun because I couldn't ever hit anything with my weapons."

Point is, make it too much "skilled based" and there are a lot of people who will bail and/or just not by the game.

This is why games need "arcade" setting for the lazy ones. Hopefully you unfriended him over this.
Even if you are a newbie but know your WASD, it's not hard to play the game without much skill.
Edit: even if you are low-skilled player, but like the game, you can pick an easy playstyle, like plinking arrows from a distance or avoiding combat by playing commander. One player that loved the RPG part of Warband, but absolutely couldn't time melee attacks and didn't want to, simply picked the most armored horse and trampled enemies.

They'll never do that, though, given that the rationale they recently gave for replacing the battle size slider with presets is they think players are too dumb to understand "more troops onscreen = worse performance".

I hope this is just one narrow-minded dev, because that decision was so obviously wrong.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

One more Mod into the "fix the game" compilation that will be required when the final version drops.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Please note that the lateral displacement value I have taken was to dramatise the effect and make the "physics simulation" noticeable. For me, the range of "optimum zone" would be between 1.5 and 1.0.

This effect is also transferred to other projectiles. I've been testing with the javelins/jereed and the necessary aiming correction, in my eyes it would be an incentive to raise the skill in terms of mounted combat and projectile throwing.