Armor type project

[Timmet]

Hey Devs & Vets, like many of You I'm HEMA and enthusiast, so I find MB armor issue unsatisfying. So I was thinking a bit at work and something came up - now I know it may be too late for 3.8, or maybe it's hardcoded or sth anyway, but still I'd like to present my idea of armor types and I hope to inspire some changes.

In reality, the only way to damage an opponent armored in plate, is to dense the plate with blunt wp or to pierce/cut in gaps. In game, plate armor behaves the same way as a dress with better damage reduction. This makes missile weapons OP and takes away the main advantage of heavy amor.

I divided armors into 4 main types; the letter would stand next to armor rating, similiar to damage type next to damage:
C-cloth
G-gambeson (padded in fact, but P suits plate better)
M-mail
P-plate

This is how it should look like, starting with missile weapons damage:

Cloth armor is hit by every projectile (100% to hit) with 100% base damage (minus armor rating);

Gambeson - 100% to hit with 80% base dmg [since padding absorbs some force of impact] except for Noldor arrows, Mettenheim bolts & Steel bolts, they hit with 100% base dmg [since they're made of materials harder than padding and penetrate without major loss of force].

Mail - 33% (plus 1/10xWP - because proficiency is about aiming in the right spots) to hit [hit on gap or pierce a ring/scale/plate without breaking the arrow shaft] with 80% base dmg [since there is padding beneath...].
Exceptions: Noldor arrows, Mettenheim bolts - 100% hit with 100%dmg;  Steel bolts - 66% hit with 100%dmg [may or may not pierce may, padding is not a problem];  Bodkin-like arrows - 100% hit with 80% dmg [bodkins are anti-ring arrowheads, but light shafts still lose force in padding].

Plate - 20% to hit with 75%dmg - a plate is really hard to pierce through, so arrows often slide off, break upon impact, get stuck in layers [there is usually mail and padding beaneath - additional damage red];
Exceptions: Noldor arrows, Mettenheim bolts - 80% hit with 80%dmg [they're made of top materials, but so should be an elite armor];  Steel bolts - 50% to hit with 75%dmg;  Bodkin-like arrows - 66% to hit with 75%dmg [they pierce through gaps better, but can't pierce a plate properly].

Thrown weapons receive no bonuses because throwing is much less powerful than shooting, they should be much cheaper instead (advanced arrows and bolts require a bit of craftsmapnship).

What's more, I think all the projectiles that miss (on hit) should have a 50% to inflict 25% blunt damage. Why? the same reason you get harmed after being shot in a bullet-proof vest - force of impact. Just imagine a shot from a freaking Mettenheim Arbalest right in the chest

Of course it should be countered with AR, DMG and price changes, and a few penalties, like:
-1 to Athletics, - 10 to WP (speed and freedom of move suffers) for mail  and -2 to Athletics, -1 to Shield (the same), -20 to WP for plate.
Helmets and Gauntlets should be divided into light (no penalties), medium (-10WP) and heavy (-20WP/ and -1Shield for g.)
Now this would give a new edge to gameplay... and get rid of the Honor Bowmen OP.

Melee damage is already divided somehow, but I'd do it like this:

Cloth - 100% hits with 100%dmg
Gambeson - 100% hits with 90%dmg for blunt/  100% hits with 80%dmg for pierce/  80%(+1/10xWP bonus) hits with 80%dmg for cut
Mail - 100% hits with 80%dmg for blunt /  80% hits with 80%dmg for pierce/  50% hits with 50%dmg for cut (and 20% hits inflict a 20% BLUNT dmg when failing to cut through, % doesn't increase)
Plate - 80% hits with 80%dmg for blunt/  30% hits with 80%dmg for pierce/  30% hits with 50%dmg for cuts (and a 20% chance for a 20% blunt dmg as well).

On a first glance it may seem complicated, but I find these % pretty close to real armored combat.
What do You think folks? Most importantly, is it possible to apply in-game?
Cheers

 

[Leonion]

Why can't some people just enjoy the game and stop creating threads / posting suggestion on realistic damage again and again?
M&B already went much further than any other RPG with its complicated damage mechanics, and yet you keep complaining.
I wonder how you can play (if you do) games like DA, Gothic, TES, Fallout that are not even remotely as realistic as M&B damage-wise.

It's a game.
It's a FANTASY mod.
You have no idea what the qualities of armor/weapons materials in PoP are. It's not real life iron, leather, bronze etc. It's Pendorian resources, Pendorian blacksmithing techniques. 
Just accept it as a fantasy element and enjoy the game.

Now talking about implementation...
M&B module system has tons of unused operations which potential vastly exceeds what you actually saw in Native and even in more advanced mods (Taleworlds devs created an exceptional framework, just didn't turn it into actual gameplay).
With triggers such as ti_on_missile_hit and ti_on_agent_hit, operations such as item_get_swing_damage_type, agent_deliver_damage_to_agent, store_agent_hit_points and agent_set_hit_points it is theoretically possible to indirectly implement all this stuff, but I'm yet to see a madman who will decide to waste his time doing this.
Not to mention that it will require thorough item sorting and full item and troop rebalancing.

 

[Timmet]

Why can't some people just enjoy the game and stop creating threads / posting suggestion on realistic damage again and again?
M&B already went much further than any other RPG with its complicated damage mechanics, and yet you keep complaining.
I wonder how you can play (if you do) games like DA, Gothic, TES, Fallout that are not even remotely as realistic as M&B damage-wise.

It's a game.
It's a FANTASY mod.
You have no idea what the qualities of armor/weapons materials in PoP are. It's not real life iron, leather, bronze etc. It's Pendorian resources, Pendorian blacksmithing techniques. 
Just accept it as a fantasy element and enjoy the game.

Now talking about implementation...
M&B module system has tons of unused operations which potential vastly exceeds what you actually saw in Native and even in more advanced mods (Taleworlds devs created an exceptional framework, just didn't turn it into actual gameplay).
With triggers such as ti_on_missile_hit and ti_on_agent_hit, operations such as item_get_swing_damage_type, agent_deliver_damage_to_agent, store_agent_hit_points and agent_set_hit_points it is theoretically possible to indirectly implement all this stuff, but I'm yet to see a madman who will decide to waste his time doing this.
Not to mention that it will require thorough item sorting and full item and troop rebalancing.

1. I do enjoy the game.
2. One can always go further.
3. If I do play other rpgs, I make the game as realistic as possible with mods.
4. Of course the blades and points in PoP can be made of unearthly materials and fighters can be freakish strong, but for the most part there are regular fighters with regular equipement - besides armor can also be made of fantastic material, so when hit by a fantastic weapon they kinda equal, huh?

It's not that nerdy at all - Forgotten Realms games had some armor types with diff resistances and penalties a long time ago.

You're right about the ammount of work required, I appreciate Your opinion.

 

[DarkTemplar]

Realistic, huh? Would you rather take sword or wear plate armor to survive longer against competent opponent? Forgotten realms forgot about something as basic as that.
Anyway I think that taking complex real life events and interactions, bending them to fit into game engine and work according to precise numbers is herculean task with pyrrhic result.
Regarding precise amounts:
I agree with potential minor WP penalty, I dont think that another movement penalty is needed, armor should have its weight precisely stated and thats all, warband calculates your speed with that.
Missile damage isnt close to good, what happens when i take weak bow and use noldor arrows with that? Force of impact is indeed true, but its heavily dependent on the missile speed. I can shoot the best arrow ever made, which can pierce modern steel, but I dont have the power to accelerate that so much with my own hands. Give something enough speed, and it can one shot kill heavily armored knight in full plate, it doesnt even need better material or high mass to pierce his stuff. I think that for missiles it should go like this: If bow has X dmg or higher, X PD requirement or higher, with X arrows or higher, you can create some kind of function, to calculate the effective distance of "blunt force of impact" bonus. If arrow had to travel 200 meters, it shouldnt do much against heavily armored target, I wouldnt be concerned about that, BUT if arrow was shot literally in the face, I would at least try to bow, to hide some weaker parts and holes and use top of the helmet and other parts to "tank" it. Check some kind of analysis of battle of Agincourt to understand what I mean. They werent concerned about arrows piercing their armor, it was all about the eye and breathing slits/holes. Arrows did occasinally pierce some parts of armors, but it just got stuck and didnt harm the man inside, at least not enough to seriously wound or kill him. Shooting from very long distance is a waste of ammo. If something like that was implemented in warband, it would make those "hold your fire" and "fire at will" commands very useful and important. But micromanaging this... ...is another story, and I wouldnt want to do that. AI is stupid enough, prone to abuse, this is another way to abuse it, or at least make it more annoying for the player.

So for now we are in this time, when compromises have to be made and some things must be contractual to make the game enjoyable. This is a big project and requires lots of dedication. If I may, I would like to suggest asking historians, museum curators, HEMA instructors, etc. about the missile vs armor argument, ideas to bend it into the game, by gathering informations about actual battles and remaining equipment from the period.

 

[Harding Grim]

The armor base defense values already model the increased resistance going from cloth to platemail, and c v. p v. b damage takes care of the rest. I don't think the devs will do anything with it anyway, but they shouldn't waste the time regardless.

 

[Timmet]

DarkTemplar:
Good question. When shooting a high-end projectile from a low-end bow, afaik the projectile should pierce most armor because it's super-sharp and thougher or equally tough as the plate/ring (thus highest %) but how long will it penetrate depends largely on the draw [here weapon damage and power draw bonuses come in] and the density/absorbtion of armor materials [armor rating bonus].
When shooting a low-end missile from a high-end weapon by a strong user, the missile should hit with great force, but to pierce the plate the arrowhead/bolthead has to be harder than the plate. Otherwise the head will bend upon impact and bounce off or break [thus force can turn into blunt damage].
I'm not an archer, I just know a thing or two about material behavior.

 

[Leonion]

besides armor can also be made of fantastic material

Perhaps it can't.
It's a fantasy world. You don't know its laws of physics, you don't know how chemistry works there, what properties materials have.
Perhaps for some reason that very material that is used for arrowheads can't be used to make armor. Just can't. Just 'cause.
Imagination is a powerful thing.

 

[DarkTemplar]

To achieve armor penetration using weak bow, the arrow would have to be made atom perfect, with as narrow head as possible, to push atoms aside easily. That level of technology is a bit futuristic, even for our times. But noldors are using magic and other stuff, so it may be possible for them.
I want to emphasize distance and speed. If low-end missile was shot by strong man, using bow with many pounds of draw force, it will fall to the ground eventually. There is air around us, and any object moving in it, will have friction working agaisnt it, to slow its movement(apparently not in warband, some missiles just fly straight, but we want more realism, right?) To achieve seemingly no friction we need more speed. Think what happens with guns? Bullets are lighter than arrows, but their speed and range is far beyond anything bow and arrow can achieve. Thats why it hurts when you are shot in your vest. It has much more energy. E=(mv^2)/2 This energy is gradually lost while traveling through air or any other medium, thats why we have effective range of things (not exactly that, i dont know how to call it, when missile loses enough of its energy to not harm the primary target? absolute maximum effective range?). Its impossible (nobody did it yet, not even close) to shoot arrows 500m with your own hands. Even at maximum range, those arrows are almost harmless, slowed down enough to bounce off of the target. They arent atom perfect, but even those have to obey laws of physics.
Unless magic. But then why not magic armor? Or atom perfect layer guiding arrows to the sides?

 

[Timmet]

By pierce i meant piercing into the plate, not entirely through the plate. Obviously most of the low-end arrows/bolts would just get stuck with their tips in a piece of plate and they don't have to be atomic perfect for that, only a bit harder (HB value) than the plate (more carbon in steel for example).
Anyway, what I'm tryin to prove is that some kind of armor type distinguishment is something essential, especially in a reality-oriented combat game. The logic behind this is not rocket science. Yes, compromises have to be made, that's why 3 swings and a thrust are a compromise for melee weapons. While there is none in armor issue - for me it's just unfinished. Having just one armor rating value for everything you put on is like having one type of damage and one type of attack. Blade weapons cut and blunt weapons crush, so should clothes tear apart and plates bounce off attacks. A superb noble garment should offer min weight, max freedom of movement and maybe a charisma bonus, but not better protection than any maille.
Yes it's a low fantasy world, but besides noldors, zombies and 2 chargers everything else is pretty much like ours - units don't fly, weapons don't return to throwers, bows don't shoot thunderbolts. Soldiers eat, horses die, godly voices tell you to do crazy stuff etc if shields protect you from damage, so should a full fckn ebony platemail. Maybe up to a point, just like a shield? (I'm starting to like this idea)

 

[Timmet]

All right, different values for each armor type from each attack type would be just too much, choosing the right armor would last for hours but in the heat of discussion I thought of something new and simple.
I'd like to know some opinions before (if at all) going to a suggestion thread.

Armor division #2

What if.. Mails endured attacks like shields? Up to a point, when plates/scales/rings bend and crack, and gaps widen - after which the fighter starts receiving damage as usual? (with armor rating acting as resistance)

Plate armor - suits of big plates. Large armor rating and endurance. After 'breaking' - standard MB resistances (no blunt res, minor piercing res, major cutting res). Bonus against shields would apply (logical for axes). One new thing - weaker cuts (and pierces?) bounce off the platemail (like in F&S) both before and after the break. Speed factor would be a good and logical condition (if possible), so that attacks from a charging rider (or even a charging footman) would always hit, whilst attacks from a reversing footman would probably slide off.
To counter the pros a -1,2 to Athletics &/or -1,2 to Shield (full plate+shield would be OP) &/or ca -40WP would apply (prop to weigth) and -1 to Riding (250lbs do make a difference for horses).
Now finally 2h fighters can survive a battle.

Mail armor - coats of segmented plates, rings, scales. Less armor rating and endurance than platemail. After breaking resistances as stated above. One new thing - 25% of cuts and pierces transfer 25% blunt instead of cut dmg unless the weapon has 'bonus against shields' (renamed to bonus against armor?) ability unless the mail has 'uncuttable' ability (noldor & elite human mails).
Minor penalties: -1 to shield &/or -1 to ath &/or -20WP.

Padded armor - aketons, gambesons, brigandines, leathers etc. No endurance. Regular resistances. Higher armor ratings than current for elite suits. Minor encemburance, no penalties.

Cloth armor - robes, garments, dressess, noble outfits. No endurance, no resistances, no penalties and no slowdown. Luxurious clothes should offer a +1 bonus to persuasion &/or trade &/or leadership. Books already boost medical skills.
Now there's a reason to attend feasts dressed up like a civilised man (second outfit option from VC would fit nicely here), not armored from head to toes

On top of that, shield-bash from Floris.

Now there's some new armor experience rather than just looking for the heaviest toughest suit possible.
Is this idea worth putting forward? if not, why?

 

[SCV Arius]

I wonder how much coding would be required to implement this into the M&B engine... Its just not practical and would require a whole new game engine to be feasible.
Why not wait until PoP shows up on M&B Bannerlord?