Any plans to stop back capping?

[Seleucid]

Right now defenders are at a huge disadvantage in siege. With some maps like Ayzar strong hold almost never seeing a defender win because of it. It's clearly not intended design as it makes siege incredibly frustrating as defenders.
I recorded the winners of 28 sieges of the official siege server in EU.
Below are results by map using A and D for short hand
Fen Altai - 4A 1D
Ayzar Stronghold - 8A
Baravenos Encirclement - 6A 1D
Domogtul Castle - 4A 2D
Skala Landing 1A 1D

I should say most of the defender wins were clumped together: during those matches it seemed very clear that the defender players were far better and attackers seemed to ignore flags. I do not know why Skala had so few results it just seems less popular.

The maps where it's easiest to back cap like Ayzar stronghold or Baravenos(if you count F) rarely have a defender win. It's only Domogtul(Skala has too little data but I think it might be a little better) that defenders even have a chance on however this is largely because of A being very hard to take. If attackers take D they can easily win from that point.
Another factor might be that Vlandia(seemingly the strongest faction) will usually be attacker. Another fix to this problem might be making it so that the voted for factions are randomly assigned sides not that the most voted for is always the attacker. Or that the winner of the last round cannot be voted for the next.

 

[Niklaus]

Right now defenders are at a huge disadvantage in siege. With some maps like Ayzar strong hold almost never seeing a defender win because of it. It's clearly not intended design as it makes siege incredibly frustrating as defenders.
I recorded the winners of 28 sieges of the official siege server in EU.
Below are results by map using A and D for short hand
Fen Altai - 4A 1D
Ayzar Stronghold - 8A
Baravenos Encirclement - 6A 1D
Domogtul Castle - 4A 2D
Skala Landing 1A 1D

I should say most of the defender wins were clumped together: during those matches it seemed very clear that the defender players were far better and attackers seemed to ignore flags. I do not know why Skala had so few results it just seems less popular.

The maps where it's easiest to back cap like Ayzar stronghold or Baravenos(if you count F) rarely have a defender win. It's only Domogtul(Skala has too little data but I think it might be a little better) that defenders even have a chance on however this is largely because of A being very hard to take. If attackers take D they can easily win from that point.
Another factor might be that Vlandia(seemingly the strongest faction) will usually be attacker. Another fix to this problem might be making it so that the voted for factions are randomly assigned sides not that the most voted for is always the attacker. Or that the winner of the last round cannot be voted for the next.

Even vlandia loses most defence rounds it’s just not seen that much since vlandia attacks most of the time the maps are just bad

 

[Ketran]

I wouldn't get your hopes up for any changes being made, this has been a problem since day 1 and very little has been done to address it aside from addressing the B point in Ayzar. In reality defenders should have the advantage because they have the big castle with all kinds of siege weapons to break towers and smash rams, but Taleworlds have gone so far in trying to remove that advantage they've given the defenders almost no tools to defend themselves. On any given map you have a couple of minutes to sally out and rush the attacking siege engines or your gate and walls will be in pieces, it's impossible to do in a game where very few people strategise and communicate with each other.

As for Vlandia I agree, the faction with the highest votes should not be on attack, it should be randomised. And to curtail the obsessive fixation this community has with spam voting Vlandia every game, it should be changed so that no faction can be played twice in a row. MP is unpopular because new players will play a few games where they get roflstomped by Vlandia and leave with a bad experience. Clans like BRE who coordinate voting Vlandia every game are killing multiplayer dead because of this.

But again I wouldn't get your hopes up, they still haven't fixed the ballista glitch where players can use it without standing behind it, this is most egregious in Ayzar where in doing so they can take cover behind indestructible barriers and never get sniped off the bloody thing.

 

[AoC]

Solution would be uncappable flags except two or three most exposed.

Also, most recent map and most recent winning faction should not be voteable. And turn on ff.

 

[flashn00b]

Honestly, I think the simplest solution would be to make later points impossible to capture without capturing the earlier ones first:

A, B and C must be captured first before D, E and F can be captured

D, E, and F must be captured first before capturing G

Optional captures (can be ignored unless the team needs extra morale):
Ayzar Stronghold: B
Baravenos Encirclement: F

 

[-Horris-]

You can already do it by making map changes.

You can make the flags themselves and other objects into one effectively.
This is done by making the flag and the object into a single prefab.

With this you can link a flag to a wooden barrier, a box that sits on top of a ladder, etc.

That means that only when that flag is taken, the box or barrier is removed.

This way you can block off lanes until certain flags are capped, preventing backcapping.


Here you can see how it works (just as proof of concept ofc).

Attackers can use the first ladder to get over the first wall. But there is a woodpile in the way of the second ladder. So you can't go over the second wall, yet.

The woodpile is linked to the flag via pre-fab. So the attackers have to capture the flag, making it and the woodpile disappear together. Only then can they use the second ladder to scale the second wall.

But you would need updated maps for that, and work put into it.
Could be fairly simple though depending on the map layout.

 

[-Horris-]

Or make the flag capturable via actual stages, the Crpg mod does this for sieges, works much better.

You just can't cap the later flags, and each map is divided into multiple stages.
So you cap A&B first, then C&D, etc.

Though even for that mod I still want to implement linking objects to flags to prevent attackers running to the back to get to better archer positions or getting to flags further back early.

 

[not-tancfire]

Dear Lords, Ladies, and Scholars of Taleworld,

Today, we shall delve into a burning topic that ignites the multiplayer battlefields of "Mount and Blade: Bannerlord": the infamous backcapping!

We have all encountered these sneaky heroes, these masters of stealth who glide like shadows in the night, behind enemy lines, heedless of the roaring swords or whistling arrows. They play with the rules, navigating the art of war like seasoned sailors braving turbulent seas.

Nonetheless, brave knights and valiant Amazons, allow us to take a impactful stance in this dispute! Is backcapping an unparalleled cheat? We dare to argue otherwise! Backcapping is the subtle art of playing with the enemy's minds, sowing confusion in their ranks, and making them taste the bitter flavor of defeat! Is this not an asset for the cunning and astute souls among us?

The crowds roar, hearts beat, is honor at stake? Indeed, but what is honor compared to victory? Do battles not hinge on all means, in a ballet of ever more inventive strategies?

And to you, dear readers, share with us your epic adventures of backcappers, your bewildering tricks, and your moments of glory in the shadows of enemy ramparts. Let us celebrate together the art of war in all its splendor, without judgment or condemnation, for after all, it's just a game!

So, awaken the tactician within you, let the archer of cunning speak, and together, let us conquer the virtual lands of Bannerlord!

May blades sharpen and keyboards crackle!
Long Live the Art of Backcapping!

 

[flashn00b]

-snip-

I'm pretty sure more backcaps happen than not because a group of players are in a private Discord DM and have one person playing defenders while everyone else in the group is attacking. The "defender" in that Discord group would tell his friends on the attacking team about openings that can be exploited

 

[-Horris-]

snip

Defenders don't have a fun time when they have to walk all the way back and leave the walls just because one attacker found a jump glitch to circumvent the walls.
Or if a single cav scooted through the gate when defenders walked out. They have to chase the cav from flag to flag never being able to catch him due to the open style maps...

If you find this to be fun gameplay I don't know what to tell you. It is only fun for the 1 attacker trolling the defenders.
If you are the one trolling, sure, you have a good time, but the rest of the players don't.
Games don't get better if you try to tailor to the trollers, they get worse for everyone else.


Also a castle isn't captured if one lol-tard is in the back.

Holding the walls and key positions is what makes you hold a castle. That is why the attention should be focused there.
The game isn't fun if 1 person can capture a castle by running to the G flag.

It makes no sense and is bad for gameplay due to having to walk back or to defend the back flags with barely any fighting the entire round just to make sure there isn't 1 attacker that will sneak through.

It just makes siege less fun for the vast majority of players.

 

[not-tancfire]

Defenders don't have a fun time when they have to walk all the way back and leave the walls just because one attacker found a jump glitch to circumvent the walls.
Or if a single cav scooted through the gate when defenders walked out. They have to chase the cav from flag to flag never being able to catch him due to the open style maps...

If you find this to be fun gameplay I don't know what to tell you. It is only fun for the 1 attacker trolling the defenders.
If you are the one trolling, sure, you have a good time, but the rest of the players don't.
Games don't get better if you try to tailor to the trollers, they get worse for everyone else.


Also a castle isn't captured if one lol-tard is in the back.

Holding the walls and key positions is what makes you hold a castle. That is why the attention should be focused there.
The game isn't fun if 1 person can capture a castle by running to the G flag.

It makes no sense and is bad for gameplay due to having to walk back or to defend the back flags with barely any fighting the entire round just to make sure there isn't 1 attacker that will sneak through.

It just makes siege less fun for the vast majority of players.

A war song sounds again on the virtual battlefields of "Mount and Blade: Bannerlord"! This time, we dive into the tumultuous depths of the backcapping debate, a strategy that makes the walls of castles shiver and the gates of fortresses creak.

Ah, what have I not heard the lamentations of these noble defenders, forced to abandon their post, to run through their own castles, chasing this one and only rider or this cunning foot soldier who, by a pirouette or a daring jump, has dared to defy the laws of physics and medieval logic!

But, my dear compatriots of Taleworld, don’t you see the larger picture? It is not a simple game of cat and mouse, but an elaborate dance of strategy and cunning. Who said that defending a castle was limited to holding the walls? Who decreed that the flags at the back were less worthy of our protection?

So, when I defend, I admit it, I myself, with a comrade in arms, played the guardians of the shadow, watching over these abandoned flags. And what a joy! What a thrill to repel the daring invader, to outsmart the backcapper in his own game!

But if this ballet of strategies displeases you so much, oh desperate defenders, why not turn to the illustrious creators of this world, TaleWorlds Entertainment? Invite them to reshape these battlefields, redefine siege rules. Blame the game, not the player!

In the meantime, let’s continue to play, laugh and fool. May the backcapper find his way, may the defender sharpen his mind! After all, isn’t that the essence of the game?

Let the keyboards crackle and the strategies intertwine in a joyful cacophony of virtual war!

Long live backcapping, and cunning in all things!

Your devoted and mischievous comrade in arms,
Lord not-tancfire

 

[Goyyyio]

Plans for multiplayer? Lmfao

 

[Ketran]

A war song sounds again on the virtual battlefields of "Mount and Blade: Bannerlord"! This time, we dive into the tumultuous depths of the backcapping debate, a strategy that makes the walls of castles shiver and the gates of fortresses creak.

Ah, what have I not heard the lamentations of these noble defenders, forced to abandon their post, to run through their own castles, chasing this one and only rider or this cunning foot soldier who, by a pirouette or a daring jump, has dared to defy the laws of physics and medieval logic!

But, my dear compatriots of Taleworld, don’t you see the larger picture? It is not a simple game of cat and mouse, but an elaborate dance of strategy and cunning. Who said that defending a castle was limited to holding the walls? Who decreed that the flags at the back were less worthy of our protection?

So, when I defend, I admit it, I myself, with a comrade in arms, played the guardians of the shadow, watching over these abandoned flags. And what a joy! What a thrill to repel the daring invader, to outsmart the backcapper in his own game!

But if this ballet of strategies displeases you so much, oh desperate defenders, why not turn to the illustrious creators of this world, TaleWorlds Entertainment? Invite them to reshape these battlefields, redefine siege rules. Blame the game, not the player!

In the meantime, let’s continue to play, laugh and fool. May the backcapper find his way, may the defender sharpen his mind! After all, isn’t that the essence of the game?

Let the keyboards crackle and the strategies intertwine in a joyful cacophony of virtual war!

Long live backcapping, and cunning in all things!

Your devoted and mischievous comrade in arms,
Lord not-tancfire

Found the Vlandian peasant player who drops all his weapons as soon as he spawns so he can teleport to G.

 

[-Horris-]

A war song sounds again on the virtual battlefields of "Mount and Blade: Bannerlord"! This time, we dive into the tumultuous depths of the backcapping debate, a strategy that makes the walls of castles shiver and the gates of fortresses creak.

Ah, what have I not heard the lamentations of these noble defenders, forced to abandon their post, to run through their own castles, chasing this one and only rider or this cunning foot soldier who, by a pirouette or a daring jump, has dared to defy the laws of physics and medieval logic!

But, my dear compatriots of Taleworld, don’t you see the larger picture? It is not a simple game of cat and mouse, but an elaborate dance of strategy and cunning. Who said that defending a castle was limited to holding the walls? Who decreed that the flags at the back were less worthy of our protection?

So, when I defend, I admit it, I myself, with a comrade in arms, played the guardians of the shadow, watching over these abandoned flags. And what a joy! What a thrill to repel the daring invader, to outsmart the backcapper in his own game!

But if this ballet of strategies displeases you so much, oh desperate defenders, why not turn to the illustrious creators of this world, TaleWorlds Entertainment? Invite them to reshape these battlefields, redefine siege rules. Blame the game, not the player!

In the meantime, let’s continue to play, laugh and fool. May the backcapper find his way, may the defender sharpen his mind! After all, isn’t that the essence of the game?

Let the keyboards crackle and the strategies intertwine in a joyful cacophony of virtual war!

Long live backcapping, and cunning in all things!

Your devoted and mischievous comrade in arms,
Lord not-tancfire

I suggested how to fix it in two different ways above.
Map fix is explained as is the game mode fix.

 

[not-tancfire]

Found the Vlandian peasant player who drops all his weapons as soon as he spawns so he can teleport to G.

 

[MP_Erik]

Right now defenders are at a huge disadvantage in siege. With some maps like Ayzar strong hold almost never seeing a defender win because of it. It's clearly not intended design as it makes siege incredibly frustrating as defenders.
I recorded the winners of 28 sieges of the official siege server in EU.
Below are results by map using A and D for short hand
Fen Altai - 4A 1D
Ayzar Stronghold - 8A
Baravenos Encirclement - 6A 1D
Domogtul Castle - 4A 2D
Skala Landing 1A 1D

I should say most of the defender wins were clumped together: during those matches it seemed very clear that the defender players were far better and attackers seemed to ignore flags. I do not know why Skala had so few results it just seems less popular.

The maps where it's easiest to back cap like Ayzar stronghold or Baravenos(if you count F) rarely have a defender win. It's only Domogtul(Skala has too little data but I think it might be a little better) that defenders even have a chance on however this is largely because of A being very hard to take. If attackers take D they can easily win from that point.
Another factor might be that Vlandia(seemingly the strongest faction) will usually be attacker. Another fix to this problem might be making it so that the voted for factions are randomly assigned sides not that the most voted for is always the attacker. Or that the winner of the last round cannot be voted for the next.

As for Azyar Stronghold my experience is that Defenders can win and do quite regularly. The problem is that the Attackers will always and only win if they backcap E and F before the forward flags because the spawnpoints when EFG are still on are much better for defenders than attackers. This creates an ugly dynamic where the players who know about this only concentrate on the back flags while knowing that the players who try to capture/defend the intuitive way are actually hurting their team in the early stages of the game. I think in this case the map really needs to be tweaked.

Another thing that is annoying about back capping in Bannerlord is that a single sneaker can force a whole team into panic. In Warband the capture speed depended on th enumber of players capturing, causing a difference between a single sneaker and a big breakthrough. Also havin just a single flag made the game flow more naturally around defensive map features while the many flags of Bannerlord ofthen stand in positions where it makes no sense for any side to wait for a prolonged time.

I think that Harrisons idea of enabling certain map features only when certain flags have been captured is quite appealing and it would make sense that for example ladders in the inside of the castle only appear when the attackers have already advanced so far.

One thing that doesn't adress back capping per se but rather map balance in general would be to have the game keep a statistic for each map on how long it took to capture it, or if not captured then how many flags the attackers managed to take. The winner would then be the side that beats the medium performance on that map. Would require a bit of work but should keep the winrate as close as possible to 50% no matter how imbalanced a map is.

 

[Seleucid]

As for Azyar Stronghold my experience is that Defenders can win and do quite regularly. The problem is that the Attackers will always and only win if they backcap E and F before the forward flags because the spawnpoints when EFG are still on are much better for defenders than attackers. This creates an ugly dynamic where the players who know about this only concentrate on the back flags while knowing that the players who try to capture/defend the intuitive way are actually hurting their team in the early stages of the game. I think in this case the map really needs to be tweaked.

Another thing that is annoying about back capping in Bannerlord is that a single sneaker can force a whole team into panic. In Warband the capture speed depended on th enumber of players capturing, causing a difference between a single sneaker and a big breakthrough. Also havin just a single flag made the game flow more naturally around defensive map features while the many flags of Bannerlord ofthen stand in positions where it makes no sense for any side to wait for a prolonged time.

I think that Harrisons idea of enabling certain map features only when certain flags have been captured is quite appealing and it would make sense that for example ladders in the inside of the castle only appear when the attackers have already advanced so far.

One thing that doesn't adress back capping per se but rather map balance in general would be to have the game keep a statistic for each map on how long it took to capture it, or if not captured then how many flags the attackers managed to take. The winner would then be the side that beats the medium performance on that map. Would require a bit of work but should keep the winrate as close as possible to 50% no matter how imbalanced a map is.

I think they changed Ayzar at some point and moved the GFE spawns back.
As for enabling map features that is a thing some community map makers have done.