A Piece of the Fix for Smithing -- Time

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Berzerker Jay

It occurred to me that one of the primary ways smithing feels broken to me is probably a simple and natural fix. The problem I'm talking about is that it happens instantaneously, even with producing many complex items all at once. They are created all at once, in that instant.

Now consider this -- what if each action took a certain amount of time, based on the difficulty and the smith's skill-level? Maybe there could be a certain amount of time that each tier-level for each part takes, totalled up for how long it will take to create that item. Then once the smithing starts, the time rolls forward until that's completed and the smith can start a new project.

Of course, we may have multiple smiths who could be working simultaneously (or maybe smithies could be upgradeable, and be able to accommodate a certain number of smiths at a time based on the upgrade level of the town project) and so where we select them by their portraits it could show with a symbol whether they are already assigned. Then once the desired or allowed number of smiths are assigned to projects, the player can click done and the forging, smelting, and refining begins.

I think this alone may help resolve a significant chunk of the system. Beyond that I'd like to see failures be much less effective and less valuable. A badly crafted sword will be unwieldy and might not even be able to properly control its edge-alignment. It could even break on first use, but that may involve a whole other can of worms.
 

Berzerker Jay

Biggest change here is the player has to choose between smithing and other activities, rather than it taking no time at all and nothing taken away from getting quests done or responding to enemies during war. Plus costs in food, wages, and party morale.
 

MakinTorf

Veteran
i think this simulation of "taking time" is the stamina in smithing for. i know it doesnt feel good at all and "time consuming".

it would definitley be better to wait until a sword or whatever is ready and done instead of waiting for loading your stamina.
its more meaningfull and wouldnt be so frustrating just waiting in a city for nothing, just to rest.
 
It occurred to me that one of the primary ways smithing feels broken to me is probably a simple and natural fix. The problem I'm talking about is that it happens instantaneously, even with producing many complex items all at once. They are created all at once, in that instant.

Now consider this -- what if each action took a certain amount of time, based on the difficulty and the smith's skill-level? Maybe there could be a certain amount of time that each tier-level for each part takes, totalled up for how long it will take to create that item. Then once the smithing starts, the time rolls forward until that's completed and the smith can start a new project.

Of course, we may have multiple smiths who could be working simultaneously (or maybe smithies could be upgradeable, and be able to accommodate a certain number of smiths at a time based on the upgrade level of the town project) and so where we select them by their portraits it could show with a symbol whether they are already assigned. Then once the desired or allowed number of smiths are assigned to projects, the player can click done and the forging, smelting, and refining begins.

I think this alone may help resolve a significant chunk of the system. Beyond that I'd like to see failures be much less effective and less valuable. A badly crafted sword will be unwieldy and might not even be able to properly control its edge-alignment. It could even break on first use, but that may involve a whole other can of worms.
SMITHING SKILL, EQUIPMENT DETERIORATION and MAINTENANCE system, PRICE BALANCE.
I could answer you and I would be approximate, so since I have written a very in-depth thread on the matter, I'll send you the link.
 

Berzerker Jay

i think this simulation of "taking time" is the stamina in smithing for. i know it doesnt feel good at all and "time consuming".

it would definitley be better to wait until a sword or whatever is ready and done instead of waiting for loading your stamina.
its more meaningfull and wouldnt be so frustrating just waiting in a city for nothing, just to rest.
I think stamina's fine just how it is. Time should be in addition to that. You get tired doing something strenuous like that, but that doesn't mean it's instantaneous. And if you take the time required to finish a strenuous job, you're still going to be tired.

If anything I'd like to see stamina used and affecting more in the game. I definitely mean stamina and time should factor into smithing, though.
 

Berzerker Jay

I guess in case there's any misunderstanding, I mean it would take time the same way it takes time when you begin a siege. You start the action, and the action is complete once the timer runs out.
 
Forget Stamina. Charge the player time to do his smithing work. (In other words, I agree with the OP.)

A real Smith who is turning out a sword is going to be hard at work for days. He's going to be beating metal a lot of the time, but he's also going to be doing quench/reheat cycles. He's probably also using an apprentice to keep his furnace hot and do other odd jobs, like turning poles, if the smith is making polearms.

As things are now, he just walks into town, takes over someone else's forge and apprentice (with no compensation), and in ZERO time delivers multiple weapons of high tier and value. His only inputs are skill, raw materials, and stamina.

I like the idea of PAYING to use someone else's forge, but I also like getting rid of stamina and charging time for the act. The higher the level of the output, the more time it should take - after all, if you're adding scrollwork or gilding for master-level work, it should only be attainable with sufficient skill... and time.

While exercising in a smithy, life in Calradia goes on. The player must meet his payrolls. People are born and die. Armies fight. Charging a reasonable and decent amount of time to do a piece would make smithing rarer and more precious. A player would probably not stop in the middle of prosecuting a war to turn out yet another tier 6 weapon in a newly-captured town, if it cost him a week at the anvil!

Adding time to the mix begins to justify weapon values of tens or hundreds of thousand of denars. (Not javelins though - a weapon you throw away should never be worth that!) Certainly crafted weapon's value is a big distortion in the game now, but forcing the player to make a hard decision about how much time to invest in smithing seems to me to remove that distortion. If my finances are in a net out-go situation, I need to have money saved up to cover my expenses while I'm smithing. If I'm at war, can I hold my army in place while I happily bang away on Thomaskene?

Now, in such a change, it should be possible to work on a weapon in as-available time spurts - meaning if you need to wrap up a session and move on, you take your partly-finished weapon along with you until your next session. This would work exactly like books did in the original M&B.

Another thought: there is really no justification for claiming something like a javelin or a spear could be high-tier. Heavens, a javelin is allowed to be made with a "tree branch"! (- but only if you've unlocked that part! And in my current campaign, I haven't!) I reject the idea that using a pole of mahogany is harder to do and more valuable than using pine, for instance. In each case, you get one throw... and it's gone! This is only in service to the design idea that players are happy when they have dozens of choices, and you feel compelled to create artificial distinctions. In a real smithy the common man's weapons, banged out quickly and easily, are modifications of farm utensils, like the billhook. (In the game, a billhook does a lot of damage, so is higher tier and much more valuable.) Churning out javelin points is beginner's work. Creating a sword takes a lot more knowledge, skill, practice, and TIME. Creating a lord's personal sidearm - a weapon of balance, elegance, and lethality - is a project that will distinguish a master from his inferiors. But in the game, you're pretty much guaranteed to start your smithing career with being able to make a basic sword. I would rethink this. Also rethink the parts-unlock mechanism, as many threads have asked.

Use another guy's smithy? As I said before, paying is reasonable. Heck, you might even be allowed to dicker on a per-day rate, with success in discounting dependent on your Charm skill! Negotiate based on plans - "Gonna be makin' a master sword, ya say? Prob' tak ya about 7 day... more ifn ya got to smelt. I'll give ya a helper, but you supply yer own charcoal, hear? Sixty denars a day. Deal?"

Trying to craft above your skill? Not just imperfections in the weapon - more TIME.
 

AnandaShanti

Sergeant Knight at Arms
I think just remove the skill and add a NPC smiths, maker parts rare special drops for rare special gear. Cpuld even be armor and ranged that way since you don't need an actual crafting system to trade in parts to an npc and pay money.
 

Berzerker Jay

I think just remove the skill and add a NPC smiths, maker parts rare special drops for rare special gear. Cpuld even be armor and ranged that way since you don't need an actual crafting system to trade in parts to an npc and pay money.
The smithing system was personally one of the biggest draws to the new game for me, as an avid and long-time player of Warband. In Viking Conquest, probably my highlight was generally once I was able to start gaining the custom smithed gear. There's something to be said for having your own personalized sword -- every warmonger worth his name in salt had one! :wink:
 
AS Berzerker Jay notes, the smithing module has appeal for a lot - not all - players. It's better to fix the module than to cut it out.

Trouble is, while so many ideas seem promising, progress of any sort on smithing has been S-L-O-W. And buggy. And there is no clear voice from TW to tell us that they hear us, or what their vision is for the full-release game.
 
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