archers should not have direct access to twohanded weapons.

[Pacemaker]

Haven't read all the posts, but this is pretty much just a Fiann discussion for me. The Fiann and Khan's Guard are very powerful in melee, and the Khan's Guard's glaive can completely destroy team's units and horses when it's used in the right moment. As it stands, Khuzait doesn't have much going for it otherwise, so it should not be nerfed.

The 2H on Fianns is completely unnecessary though. Its animation and swingspeed allows you to easily outspam even the most experienced infantry players, which is honestly silly. If you add some defensive kicks, you will be outputting even more damage. A lone heavy infantry has to fear Fianns. That's not right.

 

[Greedalicious]

This game is not just about dueling 1v1. Plus
I think restricting or limiting access is the exact purpose of raising the cost on a unit.

Anyways.. I can understand why it makes someone frustrated that their mele orientated unit is able to be out skilled by another ranged and mele class. But if that mele unit they are comparing is a slow, lumbering shield man encased in armor with a massive full face helm... Yeah... He is going to be crushed by a faster unit 1v1. Full armor and a massive shield is not the greatest dueling kit...

Bringing cav up is interesting, clearly the fastest units, dangerous weapon, but an easy shot for archers because their direction is predictable, easy to kill with a spear too, but you have to have those weapons in your kit to do it they would feel very op if none of your team is using the right weapon to counter them and they are a cake walk if you all have pikes right?

But 1 vs 1 dueling does happen, on every gamemode basically besides captain, even if its not the full intent of the gamemode. I understand that it works fine on Captain mode, but for basically every other gamemode the idea of Fiann and Khans guard is insane.

If speed is that vital (and I agree that it is) then the cost of the class should support that. Right now 2 handers are some of the cheapest classes, and they basically counter everything besides archers, and even that is in question since they can dodge projectiles semi easily.

 

[Forsee]

Well 2h weapons each have their downsides. I'd personally prefer Khan's Guard's glaive or Palatine Guard's menav rather than Fiann's sword.

Glaive is just the best 2h duelling weapon imo, it's the fastest weapon in game, you can outspam everything with it, and it also good against cav and decent against 2 inf players, but that's the only khuzait's advantage, so you cannot nerf it. Btw it got nerfed cause recurved bow that you get if you choose glaive in 1.5.5 will only deal 50 dmg (it is 56 atm), so you have to choose between glaive or good bow.
Menav is the best groupfight weapon, it's good if you have no arrows and you should fight with your team or when you are getting pushed and have no room for shooting. It is also perfect against cav, but it sucks 1v1, as you have nothing to do with spamming, usually you just can't hit even once, and if you can with some jumps or dodging, your fients are easy to block. It is also bad against 2inf ofc.
Battanian 2h sword is good 1v1 but it's like the worst 2h against cav. All in all it's far from the best 2h, if you spam someone you only deal like 15-20 dmg, it's very small, you should be really close to your enemy to spam him, you can do nothing agaist cav etc.
Sturgian 2h is a joke, cause you won't ever trade somewhat decent bow (not really) for that 2h axe.

 

[Spottswoode]

All of this could be solved with splitting the balance between modes. I hope that happens, I think the class system belongs in captain, because the roles are very defined. And the strengths and weaknesses of the Kingdoms must be defined in those unit options being relatively restricted. I can see why it's a totally different story for dueling on skirmish.

I hope we can all have our cake by splitting up the modes balance

 

[Mabons]

"Glaive is only Khuzait strength so you can't nerf it" if Khuzait had nothing but classes that move like snails, threw rocks and no hp, but had that one class that fired lasers that insta killed and through walls then would that excuse the opness of that laser or would we rather see the useless parts of the Khuzait faction buffed and the stupid parts nerfed?

I will reserve my judgement till the crushthrough changes, but they've continuously NERFED Khuzait when they needed buffs. Vlandia having 80g peasant class while Khuzait is 90, Khuzait doesn't have a triple spawn inf other than Rabble which really hurts them under class limits. (I strongly believe the spear infantry would be fine if you could at least triple spawn it)

 

[Forsee]

"Glaive is only Khuzait strength so you can't nerf it" if Khuzait had nothing but classes that move like snails, threw rocks and no hp, but had that one class that fired lasers that insta killed and through walls then would that excuse the opness of that laser or would we rather see the useless parts of the Khuzait faction buffed and the stupid parts nerfed?

Well imo khuzait should be completely removed from mp) And ye Khan's guard is my favorite class and glaive is my favorite weapon in game.
Now imagine khuzait with nerfed crushed throughs and nerfed bows, i think their winrate with class limits is gonna be about 20%.
They are looking for buffing horse archers, but I guess there like only 5-10% of players likes the idea of horse shooting class at all.

 

[Firunien]

Khuzait could have a 120g light cav for balance and faction design reasons

 

[Olaf The Cruel]

As I understand it, it would be so expensive for TW to split up the modes, to make individual updates. But I have been thinking. I don't mind having the balance of skirmish in cap mode, as long as my bots got the cap mode balance, and it only applies to the captain. I wonder if that would be a smaller programmable task to do. I don't think TW can ever find a balance that will make both the skirmish and cap mode community happy. And I wonder what TW has to say about it? Splitting up the modes for individual updating. Haven't seen any statement about this important step.

 

[Namakan]

As it stands, Khuzait doesn't have much going for it otherwise, so it should not be nerfed.

No. Having few other strong things does NOT mean you should have one thats OP to "balance it out". It means other things should be improved, and the OP thing be nerfed or taken away. I honestly don't see how you come to the idea that having one class be OP and others trash is any sort of good game design.

 

[Pacemaker]

No. Having few other strong things does NOT mean you should have one thats OP to "balance it out". It means other things should be improved, and the OP thing be nerfed or taken away. I honestly don't see how you come to the idea that having one class be OP and others trash is any sort of good game design.

You need to work on your reading comprehension. I didn't say that I want things to be this way, but that TW shouldn't touch it unless they provide meaningful buffs in other areas. Khuzait is already the weakest faction in the game, it shouldn't have its only means of making impactful plays taken from it as well without any sort of compensation.

 

[Rangah]

I'd rather have TW take away the OP thing quickly rather than let it linger because it's the only thing a faction has going for it, otherwise some people might get used to that and treat it as the norm and then go through massive logical hoops to try and justify it, like 2h crushthrough, old couches or current glaive cav.

Get rid of the broken things and take it from there.

 

[Namakan]

You need to work on your reading comprehension. I didn't say that I want things to be this way, but that TW shouldn't touch it unless they provide meaningful buffs in other areas. Khuzait is already the weakest faction in the game, it shouldn't have its only means of making impactful plays taken from it as well without any sort of compensation.

That's not what you wrote though, is it? You wrote a sentence that can be interpreted either way but only literally says "it should not be nerfed" and now you're *****ing about my reading comprehension. Maybe work on your writing.

 

[TheBard]

Haven't read all the posts, but this is pretty much just a Fiann discussion for me. The Fiann and Khan's Guard are very powerful in melee, and the Khan's Guard's glaive can completely destroy team's units and horses when it's used in the right moment. As it stands, Khuzait doesn't have much going for it otherwise, so it should not be nerfed.

The 2H on Fianns is completely unnecessary though. Its animation and swingspeed allows you to easily outspam even the most experienced infantry players, which is honestly silly. If you add some defensive kicks, you will be outputting even more damage. A lone heavy infantry has to fear Fianns. That's not right.

I agree with Fianns being the most dangerous archery unit mainly because you might get punished for pushing (half HP gone before the melee locks because he will hit one arrow if he's a good archer), if you can lock melee, he's stronger than you if employed correct and if you don't have throwing Fianns can just run for the hills and they will.
This just shouldn't be the case, infantry needs to push archers and especially Fianns need to be killed with fire before they delete your team with their 70+ Damage shots.

If the 2H option is to be retained, the price should go up to 180 or smth.

I'd rather have TW take away the OP thing quickly rather than let it linger because it's the only thing a faction has going for it, otherwise some people might get used to that and treat it as the norm and then go through massive logical hoops to try and justify it, like 2h crushthrough, old couches or current glaive cav.

Get rid of the broken things and take it from there.

This.

---

I can just hope that the update will improve the balance but if I see the only tool which can punish shieldless archers (like Fianns) effectively and without danger (Throwing) removed I fear the worst. It shouldn't be the case anyway though! And I feel bad for wanting a broken mechanic to stay in the game so I'm not disadvantaged further against all the other classes but fellow meatshields infantry.

 

[Forsee]

TW want us to use the strengths of each faction. I saw NINE asked us to remove class restrictions on BEAST to make the factions balanced. I guess that's exactly what they want, each faction should have it's own OP things to exploit to make every matchup different. I disagree with that point, cause it will force us to play the game in the way we don't want to, but seems like TW will never make all faction's infantry even.

Devs have their own view of how the game should look like, and they are not gonna change that point of view. This can be seen in the facts that they didn't remove the class system, they didn't remove such annoying things like horse archery, they don't buff weak faction's infantry etc. Their idea is that each faction should be different from the others, class choice should be different, game tactic and so on.

But most of the players only want to play inf-based matches...

 

[tom54p]

But most of the players only want to play inf-based matches...

Maybe you should ask yourself why...
I don't think anyone enjoys playing a public skirmish game against 6 glaive cavs, nor against 6 fianns.
The game shouldn't be who is better at abusing some dumb mechanic or weapon?

 

[Forsee]

Maybe you should ask yourself why...
I don't think anyone enjoys playing a public skirmish game against 6 glaive cavs, nor against 6 fianns.
The game shouldn't be who is better at abusing some dumb mechanic or weapon?

Why y'all here are so aggressive here on forum? Is it was problematic to understand taht I don't like this state of affairs either...
I'm just stating a fact that according to dev's policy there always would be OP things in game that people won't appreciate
Seems like next patch it is gonna be horse archery

 

[Spottswoode]

You guys are right, they will not make the units all perfectly even, this is not some game where all the factions are carbon copies of each other. I think this is something you are going to have to accept moving forward. Until they separate balance I don't think you are going to see them preference the balance for dueling over the whole entire rest of the game.

I think the flavor between Kingdoms is very important. I don't want some carbon copy every unit is equal flavorless design.

 

[soul_jak]

Idk I feel a lot could be solved with a warband style equipment pick for skirmish and balancing class system for captain only

 

[Greedalicious]

We dont want the game to be perfectly even, we want something that is brokenly overpowered removed or nerfed to make the game enjoyable to play.
If you're fighting someone whos a weaker player than you, but he beats you because he picked a certain class, it makes it unfun to play and learn. Why bother learning blocking when I can spin around with my menavlion, running in and out of fights at will because nobody can catch up to me, wait for teammates then crush through and win.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

A question for those who defend the Fiann,
what unit of each faction is its nemesis, its counterpart?