Please fix the armor formula. The current protection it offers is next to worthless

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I know TW is extremely incompetent's, but as to how they managed to **** the system up this badly is beyond me. One of the most highly downloaded gameplay mods fixes your terrible armor system, and another brings the stats back down to Warband levels, making veteran units actually useful.

How do you let this **** get so bad?
 
I agree it need improvement along with other damage calc changes and balances, but that video you posted is from before the armor upgrade already added. It still kinda sucks and is only noticeable with BIS Armor or on the heaviest troops like Elite Cataphracts and legionary, everything lower still dies like flies.
 
I know TW is extremely incompetent's, but as to how they managed to **** the system up this badly is beyond me. One of the most highly downloaded gameplay mods fixes your terrible armor system, and another brings the stats back down to Warband levels, making veteran units actually useful.
I don't think this was a **** up, instead I think this intentional. They want battles to be over quickly so how to do that? The more damage that gets through the faster people die, add in that the ai has no survivabilty built in because they hardly block, and people die quickly. Then it's on to the next battle for more killings. Bannerlord is the CoD of the M&B series fast action trying to continually feed the adrenaline rush but when it's all said and done there's nothing of any real substance to the game.
 
I don't think this was a **** up, instead I think this intentional. They want battles to be over quickly so how to do that? The more damage that gets through the faster people die, add in that the ai has no survivabilty built in because they hardly block, and people die quickly. Then it's on to the next battle for more killings. Bannerlord is the CoD of the M&B series fast action trying to continually feed the adrenaline rush but when it's all said and done there's nothing of any real substance to the game.
I can see that, but I don't understand why. It has a litany of drawbacks and pretty heavily alienates the veteran players from Warband. Id argue it would even turn off newer players due to the fact that high tier armor, despite slowing you down and being cost prohibitive, does basically nothing. Most of the high tier armors aside from a handful also look like total **** in comparison to what we had in Warband (Looking at you, Vlandia).
I also don't understand the need for the change in the formation system, as it seems to be a direct downgrade from what we saw in Viking Conquest, by miles I might add. It had its issues, but as is currently the formations don't really do much, aside from making the AI dumber, as they no longer automatically block incoming missile fire, and will often drop their shields temporarily when receiving a hit.
 
I also don't understand the need for the change in the formation system, as it seems to be a direct downgrade from what we saw in Viking Conquest, by miles I might add. It had its issues,
No.It looked, and worked, absolutely great when you were fighting bandits and the like. But, the moment you were fighting another formation it was downright embarrasing.

Though, I was surprised that they didnt try to improve on it.
 
I know TW is extremely incompetent's, but as to how they managed to **** the system up this badly is beyond me. One of the most highly downloaded gameplay mods fixes your terrible armor system, and another brings the stats back down to Warband levels, making veteran units actually useful.
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How do you let this **** get so bad?
For me the mod you mentioned first (I think it's RBM) is worse than vanilla. BL has the problem that armor is used in abundance visually, which does not fit the timescale (grossly 11th century). This amount of armor does not correspond to the weapons in use (if there is much effective armor on the battlefield, you see many effectice anti-armor weapons used). If the visible armor (which has no gaps) would be very effective, combat would last very long, not because of formations, maneuvering and moral effects, but because weapons bouncing off of armor (a common but problematic vision of medieval combat). But TW does not want that long battles, maybe understandeable because the later game is not much more but an endless battle grind.

RBM makes that very clear. Armor is very protective in the mod. Bigger battles are a chore, even if you don't take into account that unrealistically often all infantry is murdered before heavily armored riders fight it out forever till the last man. Swords are mostly useless against high tier units. Worse, even twohanded weapons swung with 300 skill chip away only very few hp from well armored persons. What to use are maces, seemingly a medieval super weapon (albeit not that much in use in the real world of the time). That all is not realistic, too.

There are already complaints that combat after the armor improvement TW made is too long and clumsy. I don't think so. Maybe they should tone down pierce damage still a bit. Although pierce damage of projectiles was in reality the biggest danger to armored people (that's the main reason they tested armor with such weapons), except blunt and pierce damage from big twohanded weapons. They should also change weapon's and hit box mechanics (f.e. faster thrusts, less fixation to head shots, less blunt effects to torso and limbs, such things) but that's another topic.
 
For me the mod you mentioned first (I think it's RBM) is worse than vanilla. BL has the problem that armor is used in abundance visually, which does not fit the timescale (grossly 11th century). This amount of armor does not correspond to the weapons in use (if there is much effective armor on the battlefield, you see many effectice anti-armor weapons used). If the visible armor (which has no gaps) would be very effective, combat would last very long, not because of formations, maneuvering and moral effects, but because weapons bouncing off of armor (a common but problematic vision of medieval combat). But TW does not want that long battles, maybe understandeable because the later game is not much more but an endless battle grind.

RBM makes that very clear. Armor is very protective in the mod. Bigger battles are a chore, even if you don't take into account that unrealistically often all infantry is murdered before heavily armored riders fight it out forever till the last man. Swords are mostly useless against high tier units. Worse, even twohanded weapons swung with 300 skill chip away only very few hp from well armored persons. What to use are maces, seemingly a medieval super weapon (albeit not that much in use in the real world of the time). That all is not realistic, too.

There are already complaints that combat after the armor improvement TW made is too long and clumsy. I don't think so. Maybe they should tone down pierce damage still a bit. Although pierce damage of projectiles was in reality the biggest danger to armored people (that's the main reason they tested armor with such weapons), except blunt and pierce damage from big twohanded weapons. They should also change weapon's and hit box mechanics (f.e. faster thrusts, less fixation to head shots, less blunt effects to torso and limbs, such things) but that's another topic.
I agree that armor is not the problem.

From my own experience with an all infantry party it performs basically just as well as an all archer party, as long as you are not outmatched. As in, you can routinely take on enemy parties and expect to get away with zero or minimal losses.

The performance problems only starts to show when you fight a numerically significantly stronger opponent. The Fians have the advantage that they can thin out the enemy ranks alot before the melee, and ofcourse, they are still excellent fighters in melee. The infantry, in contrast, will simply be swarmed by numbers.

In a battle I decided to use for testing, even giving the infantry party the benefits of the majority of the beneficial perks, medicine 275 included, it was still not enough to turn the battle. The Fians would win consistently.

As long as melee is, everyone swarming in and hacking away at each other, you just can not solve it though armor without massively upsetting the general balance of the game.
 
I can see that, but I don't understand why. It has a litany of drawbacks and pretty heavily alienates the veteran players from Warband. Id argue it would even turn off newer players due to the fact that high tier armor, despite slowing you down and being cost prohibitive, does basically nothing. Most of the high tier armors aside from a handful also look like total **** in comparison to what we had in Warband (Looking at you, Vlandia).
I also don't understand the need for the change in the formation system, as it seems to be a direct downgrade from what we saw in Viking Conquest, by miles I might add. It had its issues, but as is currently the formations don't really do much, aside from making the AI dumber, as they no longer automatically block incoming missile fire, and will often drop their shields temporarily when receiving a hit.
It's better than it used to be, though it might hard to tell if you're jumping into version 1.8 after a long break. At least a Legionary can handle a few Recruits on their own now. A.I. actually does okay blocking arrows from what I can tell, though it looks a little uncanny.

The problem with this game is how the A.I. just swams together all the time. It makes sense to stay shoulder-to-shoulder when in a shield wall formation, but all other times every NPC should be trying to maintain some kind of personal space. It's ridiculous that troops cluster together so bad during a charge they can't even swing their weapons properly without bumping into friendlies constantly. Pretty sure this is a big reason why Cavalry perform so poorly.

Unforunately like black_bulldog said TW's philosophy is to have lots of quick adrenaline battles ala CoD. Problem is if you increase survivability too much, battles are going to really drag on time wise, especially larger ones and sieges. They'd have to readjust everything from Lord recovery times to how troops spawn.

I'd like battles to be more decisive - it always irks me that you can defeat a Lord, release him, and he'll be back again in a few days with a full party like some kind of Saturday morning cartoon villain.


Supposedly release version will fix most of the behive jittering, but I doubt much else has been improved about the A.I. I suspect RBM will remain one of the most popular mods for this reason. Honestly I'd be happy if they just nerfed arrow damage somewhat. Archer units are still too strong in 1.8 if you ask me.
 
I know TW is extremely incompetent's, but as to how they managed to **** the system up this badly is beyond me. One of the most highly downloaded gameplay mods fixes your terrible armor system, and another brings the stats back down to Warband levels, making veteran units actually useful.

How do you let this **** get so bad?

The video you posted is an old video OP, the melee damage armour formula has improved since then!

However, I strongly agree that the armor formula is still not fixed because arrows and bolts still do way too much damage to armour. Armour should give 1.7x better protection against ranged damage than it does now
 
There is no way to balance this thing. A knight, however strong, can't do anything if 4-5 dudes (looters) jump on top of him and pin him to the ground. He's only got two hands and two legs, with added 10-15kg of armor at least. The archers really are too powerful, true, but it all has to do with how the battle system is designed. You can't have 1000 highly detailed armor physics models where the arrows or swords could go through the gaps. This is a video game, and its rules are arbitrary and made up. And RBM does not FIX anything, it just replaces one unbalanced thing with another unbalanced thing. Archers become useless, and you go from craving 100% fian armies to 100% cav armies. I like some of the AI changes, but for the most part the general game is far worse with that mod.
 
There is no way to balance this thing.

The archers really are too powerful, true, but it all has to do with how the battle system is designed. You can't have 1000 highly detailed armor physics models where the arrows or swords could go through the gaps.
There is a, very easy, way to balance this. You simply increase the resistance of armor to pierce damage by 1.7x.

Now instead of archers killing same tier troops in 4-5 bodyshots, instead they require 7-8 bodyshots to kill. Enough time for melee troops to get in melee range at half health, and maybe win the fight or maybe lose.

Warband, made by a 10x smaller team 10 years ago, managed to have archers that were balanced because they took around 7-10 bodyshots to kill.
A knight, however strong, can't do anything if 4-5 dudes (looters) jump on top of him and pin him to the ground. He's only got two hands and two legs, with added 10-15kg of armor at least.
Well, nobody's jumping on top of anyone or pinning anyone in Bannerlord. When talking total realism, I also disagree with the notion that any one of those 5 unarmoured dudes would want to be the first one to try and rush down the knight and get their guts sliced open by a sword for their trouble.
This is a video game, and its rules are arbitrary and made up. And RBM does not FIX anything, it just replaces one unbalanced thing with another unbalanced thing. Archers become useless, and you go from craving 100% fian armies to 100% cav armies.
Balance isn't an on/off switch between OP and UP, it's a matter of degrees. There is a midpoint between what we have now and RBM. Where both archers and cav are useful relative to their cost.
 
I like some of the AI changes, but for the most part the general game is far worse with that mod.
I find the mod is worse because the rest of the game is built with frequent, fast fights in mind and if you make every serious battle take like five times as long and produce 50% more casualties for the player, it very quickly starts to drag things into grindfest territory.
 
I find the mod is worse because the rest of the game is built with frequent, fast fights in mind and if you make every serious battle take like five times as long and produce 50% more casualties for the player, it very quickly starts to drag things into grindfest territory.
Same experience. The mod buffs armours tremendously while severely nerfing all weapon damage. Not necessarily a recipe for success of enjoyment in 1500 v 1500 battles of heavily armoured troops (waving spaghetti noodles at each other)
 
I've been playing RBM for a while and I kinda miss native's bloodbath feel of damage. While armor in native is too useless, armor in RBM is too strong. Taking down an armored unit using projectiles is too difficult, so archer units in general become somewhat useless. Cutting weapons also become worthless with RBM, crippling your options.
 
Most weapons are useless in RBM against high tier, except perhaps maces. Although, with very high skills it gets better. Nevertheless I would not call it "realistic" because the better armor more or less behaves like hardened plate armor in a world without anti-plate weapons in use. It's a bit like making a WWII combat game and the tanks have Abrams front armor all around. What is also annoying is that already simple cloth and leather armors are very strong, following some modern views in the armor discussing society.

BTW I found this armor related video quite interesting, and partly surprising, at least for me:
 
The armors work MUCH better for melee damage in 1.8, not so much better for ranged damage. It only took them several years to achieve this! I haven't done any maths but 1.7x higher protection sounds like it would work better than what we have, although crossbowmen are a bit underpowered right now while horse archers are still OP.

I suggested fixing this through making the lower tier arrows and bolts deal cutting damage, and higher tier bolts being distributed more commonly than higher tier arrows to standard units. I didn't do any maths or testing for this suggestion tho, so if anyone has, please tell me if it's a legit or **** suggestion. This would theoretically leave the Fian Champs still OP (which they should be, albeit a bit less) while Khan's guards would do much less damage with arrows (glaive damage should be nerfed a little as well, its beyond ridiculous currently).

What annoys me endlessly is javelins doing infinity damage while at the same time spear thrusts doing 3 damage. If anything, javelins would do lower damage due to the force dissipating while its travelling through the air. They should keep the current level 250 throwing perk and the overexaggerated ragdoll physics of units going to mars when they die due to a throwing weapon, those are awesome.
 
I think javelins are fine, a direct hit with "some" speed should kill. The issue is that spears are too weak and that the AI can´t really handle them.
 
Imo, they should be nerfed just a teeny tiny bit especially the harpoon & the jereed (and other ones that have around the same amount of damage), not too much, the spears are the ones that need the buff. The throwing perk tree can be so ridiculous with 40+ ammo that are able to carry + shield penetration that I adore it. That's why I only want a tiny nerf.
 
40+ ammo? Need to try that, even with like 40 points in the throwing perk it´s most of the time one shot = one kill. I mostly play with a pack of javelins even with only 5 ammo, but the physics are so damn funny when you hit someone :smile:

They can be slighty nerfed, so that a T5 unit can survive a full hit in some cases maybe. But yea, spears are the bigger problem because they just suck.
 
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