Ukraine Today

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Antoine de Saint-Exupéry said:
azov is a thing.
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Orion said:
Azov Battalion have self-identified... <snip>
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That is true, Ukrainians do have their own 'nazi/nationalistic' organization... same as the rest of the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_neo-Nazi_organizations. I'm a bit 'disappointed' at the Author for forgetting about Poland ;p (I'm at least familiar with three - wish they would not be a thing, but they are. Anyways, there are bigger fishes swimming in the pond apparently...). Funnily - several from Russia. It is also not a surprise to me that they (Azov) were enlisted when the conflict became inevitable... All hands on deck, no less no more.

But, as @Trueten wrote - this whole denazification thing was just too good to not use it.

The dehumanization of Russians and any other group of people would lead to a disaster. No doubt. Many bad things will happen and may also spread through other countries including some susceptible nations such as my own. I catch myself falling into this trap recently more and more. The polarization is so strong and the world tension won't be lowered easily anytime soon. Ukrainians have obvious reasons to be hostile and angry (also for the West) and alienated Russians will soon become even more prone to propaganda and there will be no free-thinking whatsoever.

What I don't understand is the grief, pain after losing my home, life, relatives... I may think this is all so horrible and can try to imagine how I would feel if everything that was dear to me perished... I heard it from my grandparents (on both sides), but it was so surreal at the time when they told me all that. Hopelessness cause people to think and portray perps as not humans which I believe may come as a self-defense mechanism. I really think this is good that Admins take care about the language here and don't let harmful propaganda spread. This, for sure plays in Ukraine's favor. But at the same time - I feel very sad, that things are not proportional all the time (in general)...

I'm really afraid that if for some reason Ukraine will ever fall to Russia - I'm on the frontline. Whether there will be another war is a matter of time. Alliances may change in time, and NATO or EU might be non-existent at that time. Looking particularly at some western countries (like one European country, in particular) - I have no doubt that business may be put above ideas. I wonder how I would feel reading through the internet with all the armchair experts' opinions on what should be done and what language should be considered the most adequate to maintain human aspects of reality...

P.S. Just a little phrase that roamed in my head for a while, so adequate IMO:
https://quotepark.com/pl/cytaty/181...l-hang-the-capitalists-with-the-rope-that-th/

Are We Now Buying the Rope On Which We Will Hang? | Totseans

totseans.com totseans.com
 
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Sigh, nazis can be in every nation. You can find one no boubt. I bet there may be nazis on this forum. But does it make it a nazi forum? Of course not. Can I assume Azov Regiment (its no longer a battalion) may have members that share some ultra-right ideology? That may be possible. But MadVader stated "nazi militia gonna do ethnic cleansing" - thats impossible:
1. Azov is no longer a volunteer independent battalion. Its a long since it is a part of oficial Armed Forces but has its own name "Azov" same as some american 92nd Infantry Division. It gets direct commands fron ukr colonels and such and doesnt do any operations like "hey lets go burn that village". Its not a militia.
Their problem is bad PR.
FYI my brother works for Azov. He aint no trooper, he is a designer there. So I kinda know what Im saying.

2. Ethnic cleansing of whom? Russians? Where? In Ukraine? Lol. That would be funny, since how can you define one from another? Stating the same would be "ethnic cleansing of englishman in USA". How can you divide them from non englishmen? By sirnames? All are half breeds, and can be british only by their own statement. Allmost all ukrainian territories are ethnic ukrainian territories (except for Crimea and some small villages near Hungary and Romania).
People are not devided on here on been Russian or Ukrainian. They are all ukr citizens and there NO ethnic conflicts that have ever been here, because all peoples are half breed. Im like 80% ukrainian with some Belarus blood. Never have I oriented on Belorus as some of my homeland. I have zero ties with it.

3. The major differences in Ukraine are not ethnic, but rather language based. About 55-60% of population speaks Ukrainian. And so 40-45% speaks russian. Including me. I dont have ukrainian keyboard on my phone. Only RUS and ENG. The same goes with Azov - its like 50/50 russian/ukrainian speaking.
Is differences in language makes any tension? Does it cause any problems or even conflicts here?

NO. We all wield any of these two languages on the same level. I can speak or read both. Whenever I watch TV, a movie or whatevs I never even notice what language it is on.

And here you can all enjoy a fresh article on official Russian media resourse RIA News posted by russian journalist - https://ria.ru/20220403/ukraina-1781469605.html
The author explains what should be done with Nazi Ukraine.
Heres some part:
The Nazis who took up arms should be destroyed to the maximum on the battlefield. There should be no significant differences between the Armed Forces of Ukraine and the so-called national battalions, as well as the territorial defense that joined these two types of military formations. All of them are equally involved in extreme cruelty against the civilian population, equally guilty of the genocide of the Russian people, do not comply with the laws and customs of war. War criminals and active Nazis should be exemplarily and exponentially punished. There must be a total lustration. Any organizations that have associated themselves with the practice of Nazism have been liquidated and banned. However, in addition to the top, a significant part of the masses, which are passive Nazis, accomplices of Nazism, are also guilty. They supported and indulged Nazi power. The just punishment of this part of the population is possible only as bearing the inevitable hardships of a just war against the Nazi system, waged as carefully and prudently as possible in relation to civilians. Further denazification of this mass of the population consists in re-education, which is achieved by ideological repression (suppression) of Nazi attitudes and strict censorship: not only in the political sphere, but also necessarily in the sphere of culture and education. It was through culture and education that a deep mass nazification of the population was prepared and carried out, secured by the promise of dividends from the victory of the Nazi regime over Russia, Nazi propaganda, internal violence and terror, as well as the eight-year war with the people of Donbass who rebelled against Ukrainian Nazism.

...

Therefore, denazification cannot be carried out in a compromise, on the basis of a formula like "NATO - no, EU - yes." The collective West itself is the designer, source and sponsor of Ukrainian Nazism, while the Western Bandera cadres and their "historical memory" are only one of the tools for the Naziification of Ukraine. Ukronazism carries not less, but a greater threat to the world and Russia than German Nazism of the Hitlerite version.
The name "Ukraine" apparently cannot be retained as the title of any fully denazified state entity in a territory liberated from the Nazi regime.
The article is getting "popular" and is spread widely - https://www.instagram.com/p/Cb8BAuPNFjd/

One might ask "so often "nazi" words used. It cant be taken out of thin air eh?". Well, as I said it before - it is. One simply occuse you been Nazi in order to feel free to anihilate you. How about that in a 21st century with all alternative sources availiable in the net?
Its funny when you read it and take it as a brainwash for internal use. But its not getting that funny when these people get armed and sent to your country to oficially "denazify all of you".

And how do russians react been fed with all that (i mean those who accept these words as real)? The soldiers kill local civilians occusing them being nazis.
And people on a street say this:


Thank God ukrainian forces managed to repel most of attacks.
zOcHa.jpg
7faf_.jpg

But imagine what would they do with all civilians in Ukraine if Russia would succeed with their plans on invasion? Sometimes you think they can separate their own propaganda lies with reality. But sometimes it seems they are stuck in the spiral of lies believing in what they say, and then reproducing it, cover it with more lies, and so forth.
 
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MadVader said:
Do I also need to explain I'm on Ukraine's side not to get attacked for allegedly being pro-Russian? I don't think I need to, but it's "you are with us or against us" in the propaganda war on the internet, the space for nuanced debate is shrinking. It's sad and predictable.
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No, you don't. I know what 'with us or against us' leads to. After all, I have a degree and international conflict is very close to my field of studies. What I'm trying to explain through my message is that Russian propaganda has prepared the public opinion on key talking points unlike any other side involved in this conflict, which makes it far more inclined to tolerate aggressive messaging directed against Ukrainians. This may explain why Russian soldiers may be more prone to comitting war crimes than the other side involved. Also, this messaging is not new. As someone else pointed out in this thread, the 'Great Patriotic War' and 'victory against Fascism' has achieved cult status in Russia for decades, even an far as being a raison d'etre for the state itself. Consequently, when the Russian state-controlled media blasts Ukraine for 8 straight years on being a 'Nazi' state, it's plays a very special cord in the minds of many Russians. Hence the excesses we are witnessing in this war.
My argument and the point I'm trying to make (which might have been shadowed by my admittedly clumsy message) is that the Russian army is way more inclined to commit war crimes than the Ukrainians owing to decades of uninterrupted propaganda, state-promoted chauvinism and the legacy of a great state which dissoluted and got humiliated geopolitically (naturally, with the help of the 'little brothers' who rebeled in 1991 and who are not wortly of statehood).
Ukraine, while not having had an impressively free press during its independence years, has been way more liberal, and the state din not purposefully promote anti-Russian messaging until when the war began in Donbass. Ukrainians are shocked that Russia decided to proceed the way it did, especially given close cultural connections (this has been the reaction of refugees I had the chance to talk to). Of course, hatred towards Russians in general has been rapidly growing, but it has not been purposefully nurtured for a long time.

With that said, I'm not as naive to believe that Ukrainians have not or will not commit war crimes. I'm perfectly well aware that counter-atrocities are being carried out (already documented) and will grow in number. Russia though, being much more potent militarily (after all, it's them who are in Ukraine, not vice-versa) and having worked really hard controlling what people must or must not believe, has much more motivation to carry out atrocities.
 
There is one thing that I don't understand: as far as I know, one of the main reasons behind Putin's invasion is that he always saw Ukraine as an illegitimate state, which in his mind is actually part of Russia and should be coming back. I have also seen him say that Ukrainians and Russians are exactly the same. How does that reconcile with the other propaganda about them being a bunch of Nazis and that any action is justified against them?
 
It very much does.

In that article on RIA Novosti (translation), that was copied from Heydrich's playbook, it is stated that its not just the government but the whole society* and that nazism basically equals the pro-western leaning of the country and also the sovereignity of the nation in itself and its national identity. **

* However, in addition to the above mentioned, a significant part of the masses, which are passive Nazis, accomplices of Nazism, are also guilty. They supported and indulged Nazi government. The just punishment of this part of the population is possible only as bearing the inevitable hardships of a just war against the Nazi system, waged as carefully and prudently as possible in relation to civilians. [...] The duration of denazification can in no way be less than one generation, which must be born, grow up and reach maturity under the conditions of denazification.

** Denazification will inevitably also be a de-Ukrainization – a rejection of the large-scale artificial inflation of the ethnic component of self-identification of the population of the territories of historical Little Russia and New Russia, begun by the Soviet authorities. [...] Ukraine, as history has shown, is impossible as a nation state, and attempts to “build” one naturally lead to Nazism. Ukrainism is an artificial anti-Russian construction that does not have its own civilizational content, a subordinate element of an alien and alien civilization. Debanderization by itself will not be enough for denazification – the Bandera element is only a performer and a disguise for the European project of Nazi Ukraine, therefore the denazification of Ukraine is also its inevitable de-Europeanization."
 
@Trueten I can argue with you about certain points, but I won't. It will be a distraction from more urgent issues.
BenKenobi said:
It very much does.

In that article on RIA Novosti (translation), that was copied from Heydrich's playbook, it is stated that its not just the government but the whole society* and that nazism basically equals the pro-western leaning of the country and also the sovereignity of the nation in itself and its national identity. **
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Wow, this is going very far, it's like European values never made much impact on Russia and they are reliving WW2.
In times of war, the bull**** justifications just grow in scope and smell.
And they are not finished yet. I'd bet they will eventually dispose of the alleged prudence towards civilians even hypothetically, once they need to justify a large number of killed civilians.

I've seen similar levels of nationalist fantasy and delusion in the Serbian public discourse in the 90s, particularly when they were under painful sanctions and diplomatically isolated. Luckily for the Russians, they are merely isolated from the West and still have normal relationships with much of the rest of the world, who is not as concerned about a European war.
 
eddiemccandless said:
There is one thing that I don't understand: as far as I know, one of the main reasons behind Putin's invasion is that he always saw Ukraine as an illegitimate state, which in his mind is actually part of Russia and should be coming back. I have also seen him say that Ukrainians and Russians are exactly the same. How does that reconcile with the other propaganda about them being a bunch of Nazis and that any action is justified against them?
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He is a legitimate liar and you shouldn't trust one word he says.
 
eddiemccandless said:
Oh I know he is. I just don't understand how that all plays with the general Russian population.
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Fear - mentality of people being repressed for ages, cult of the nation - Matushka Rassija is the best, Foreign policy 'we - them' rethorics, rewritting history, fallen empire burden, state 'friendly' media that all shaped an average Russian. Damn shame, cause i know Russians living outside of Russia, great, brilliant people. I don't know how to explain this but i'd say this is the largest Stockholm syndrome (edit:probably not the largest, i quickly realized the scope of the exaggerate, but still considerable) example ever known to Mankind.

P.S. I'm somehow aware this is actually going deeper. Modern russians have not suffered the poverty their parents and grandparents had. I understand why they may be grateful to the state for what they have. Humanism is always a second tier need..

P.S. 2. Meanwhile - revealed scale of athrocities is so far overwhelming :sad:
 
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That doesn't surprise me. Even without taking what happened in Bucha into account, the Ukrainian people have already been given plenty of reason to ****ing hate Russians. Of course it's not right to kill prisoners, I'm not condoning their actions, but it's understandable that the Ukrainian soldiers might be angry and emotional because their home cities are being bombed and innocent people killed. And that hatred is only going to get stronger the longer the war goes on.
 
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I wonder if more practical pressures play a part too. As I understand it, the weather is still very cold in the region which, in addition to the obvious scarcity of food, water and general amenities for keeping prisoners might make the prospect of going to a lot of effort to keep another human in good health (and according to the BBC this apparently executed/murdered soldier appeared to be 'badly injured') seem very unappealing or simply unrealistic.
 
Yeah the video I saw was just finishing off enemy soldiers, not killing prisoners. It's ok to ambush a Russian convoy and kill them without giving them a "fair" chance, so the who die before you walk to them are legitimate casualties, but if some are still technically alive, then finishing your legitimate job is a war crime? What difference does it make?
 

Customary IHL - Rule 110. Treatment and Care of the Wounded, Sick and Shipwrecked

Rule 110. Treatment and Care of the Wounded, Sick and Shipwrecked
ihl-databases.icrc.org

It is a long-standing convention in international law and written in the Geneva Conventions to which both Russia and Ukraine are signatories, that soldiers are obligated to take prisoner and care for wounded enemies who pose no further threat. What you are not supposed to do is walk up to him, put your boot on his sternum, and blow his head off and then upload it to r/Ukraine for reddit karma.
 
I think there should be some sort of equivalent of the viability rule. If somebody is shot in the arm and surrenders, sure, that's a prisoner. If somebody is choking on blood filling up his lungs and saving him is near impossible and would require disproportionate and finite time and resources to save, then let nature run it's course. Shooting him is an act of mercy, if anything.

It seems bizarre to me to ask Ukrainians to play Florence Nightingale for people who want to exterminate them politically, if not biologically.

But, but it's just 18 year olds having no idea what they're doing! Don't care, didn't ask, as long as you're wearing the uniform and wielding a gun, you're the enemy. If you don't want to get killed by people defending their existence, don't attack them. Desert, surrender, run. Everybody won't shut up about their community when it comes to credit or victim status, but when it comes to responsibility for your community, suddenly everybody's a rugged individualist.
 
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