Dr-Shinobi
I prefere the longer ones as ground troop but it depends on the skill level at the time since you dont want to go to long to soon if you want to deal damage and be usefull. Same goes for armor if you want to stay alive
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Smithing breaks the game
- Thread starter Mr. Walfington
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If you are using a mechanic in a way that isn't enjoyable for you then don't use it that way? If you want to abuse a mechanic in the game go right ahead and abuse it all you want. You just won't get any sympathy from me when you make a decision to abuse a mechanic in a way that kills your enjoyment. There are consequences for your actions. If you did it unaware of what would happen sucks but lesson learned. Either roll back a save or just continue and don't do it again. The damage done on plenty of mistakes in the game over the long term can be mitigated plus you have to expect to make mistakes if you didn't look up how something worked ahead of time. Besides you kind of have to go into some play throughs with the expectation that you will probably learn something about the game that would have caused you to make different choices.
There are plenty of decent gamers out there who don't use every tool available for many different reasons. Some do it for additional challenge and others do it because they are well aware that it will kill their enjoyment of the game. You have a choice in what tools you will and will not use which also includes mods/console commands. Really this argument is invalid as you are also using a generalization and I highly doubt that you have any hard evidence to back up your claim in this.
Actually the argument is valid just the logic that you are using is that the stove top is hot and burned me. The people who made the stove top needs to make it so that it doesn't burn me.
As for your "it's early access bro" well quite simply there have been and are going to be plenty of changes to be made to the game. Some of those changes will also end up causing some new issues as they interact with other aspects of the game in a way that wasn't a problem before.
Ummm isn't part of the premise of the argument you have been making the fact that there are people that don't have self-control in cheating which is why this aspect of the game needs to be changed? I mean if you have the self-control to not use game breaking mods or console commands then you should have the self-control to not exploit a game mechanic in a way that isn't enjoyable for you right? After all it sounds like you are saying here "just because you can do it doesn't mean you have to or should do it" which was the whole premise of what they said originally so it sounds like you are agreeing with them here. In which case you are being argumentative.
It is actually quite easy to be both an intentional and unintentional aspect to the game. The designers intentionally put this in the game with some expectation you would try to make some coin off it by producing better quality weapons to sell or for use. They unintentionally made it super easy to make a ridiculous amount of coin which is in a way a defect of the games economy. If you were to compare the prices of your crafted weapons to the prices weapons in game, the price tag does make sense then. So really when it comes to making gold off of it you should take it up with how they set up the economy in the game where the prices of armor and weapons is just super inflated at the higher tiers.
As for the easy leveling I am not sure how long you been playing the game for but this has to do with the change in the character level system. Since before character level was based on skills up this wasn't an issue but now that it is based on your unmodified exp gain from your skills the whole power leveling a character from 1-20 in like a hour has become an issue. So this is the "it is early access" argument comes in since there was a fundamental change to the game the created other issues that weren't issues before. Fundamental game changes like this do create unintentional aspects to the game since they are working on quite a few different things game balancing these changes sometimes doesn't make it on the list of priorities or cross their minds as they have 50 other items to deal with as well.
Hey look you learned about an aspect of the game that you didn't before. Chalk that up to expect to learn new things about the game in each of your play throughs if you didn't decide to read up on how the game worked. The more in depth the game the more you need to expect having a learning the game play through if you don't look these things up ahead of time. Also this isn't a fault of the smithing system as it is a aspect of the character progression system which smithing is just the easiest skill to use in exploiting this aspect.
No, that isn't always going to be the argument. Smithing does need to be reworked but some of that brokenness isn't a fault of the smithing system. There are other systems in the game that are at fault and all smithing does is highlight that fact. If you are using smithing to exploit those systems and it killed your fun well that is on you. Same as if you used console commands and it killed your fun. If you unintentionally ruined your game where it is now unplayable because you didn't know how the game works well that really sucks but you did learn something about the game. It is a sandbox type of game so kind of have to expect that is a possibility without doing research ahead of time.
I am not seeing the relevance of these issues to the the exploitation of the smithing system and all you are doing is creating a straw man argument. So this is just purely trying to be argumentative.
The arguments made aren't absurd at all just that the view point is exploiting a game mechanic is equivalent to using console commands/cheats and are using the same logic. Just because you can use it in that fashion doesn't mean you have to use it in the fashion. You can use it as how it was intended and still win the game. Just like you can play without god mode on and still win the game.
This is the thought process of the argument being used.
Reading your original post it sounds something like:
"So I did this thing beyond the original scope of what it is for that killed my enjoyment of the game. So now I would like the game developers to change it so that no one can do this thing because I don't like how it makes the game way too easy even though I have the option to not use it that way."
Which sounds like:
"So I used console commands to cheat the game which killed my enjoyment of the game. So now I would like the game developers to disable them so that no one else can use them as I don't like how it makes the game way too easy even though I have the option to not use them."
Just because some people abuse a mechanic doesn't mean it should be removed when this is a solo experience and all you are doing is hurting yourself if it kills your enjoyment.
It is early access so there will be plenty of issues that crop up or become highlighted as more systems are changed and implemented. Like the change in the character development system is causing the exploitable interaction between smithing and leveling up which wasn't a problem with the level up based on number of skill ups system which changed somewhere around the 1.5.0 branch. Don't remember which one it was exactly. So as some systems become more refined interactions like these will become less of a game breaking thing.
The smithing system does need to be reworked but not because it is exploitable. Since the exploitation of smithing is really exploiting the interaction with character progression system and economy/wealth philosophy of the game in a way that highlights some flaws of how they are now. Personally I say those aspects are what need to be fixed not trying to prevent smithing from being exploited because of other flawed aspects in the game.
Personally I am of the mind set of you reap what you sow when it comes to exploitable mechanics that you have to actively use but as for mechanics that you can unintentionally use and not realize it till it is well past the point of no return. Well those probably should be tweaked a bit though of course sometimes that isn't always possible when it is an intended game feature.
Also just because you make a game more player friendly and/or a single player game less exploitable doesn't mean that it is always going to be better. It wasn't uncommon for game developers to leave in exploits or game breaking mechanics in because you are responsible for what you do in the game. Plus it actually enhanced the game for some people and since it was your choice in if you used it or not there really isn't a need to remove them.
As for fixing a flawed system or interaction between systems that is a different story so long as you are fixing the cause and not the symptom.
There is a mod out there that does unlock all smithing components. I use it because I really dislike how the pattern learning system works since it is so rng heavy. Even more so with the fact that I can't narrow down the possible patterns I could learn to try and target a little bit more.
Yeah, the whole economy really needs some reworking since part of the smithing issue is the fact the the economy is pretty screwy. The developers try so hard to keep you on a razors edge financially that it makes it really easy for these kind of exploits to show up. It is not like we won't be finding ways to spend our coin in the game or that they can't add in coin dump features to the game that mechanically don't do much but are still cool. Plus once you start getting into the later stages of the game coin really shouldn't be an issue for you at all except in the more extreme cases like trying to keep all of your garrisons filled to the max count.
P.S.
On a side note for the polearm discussion I prefer using a smithed version of the Executioner's Axe since I can make it as long as a few of those polearms and can cleave through enemies killing several of them in one blow. Plus since it is an axe nice damage bonus against shields and objects.
Marajah
Regular
Message to everyone telling people should just not abuse blacksmithing:
1. It's very easy to abuse. Everyone finds it out eventually without much effort. No need for brainstorming, looking for guides, cheats, etc... All you gotta do is smith. Some polearms give massive boosts, most 2-h swords give massive boosts, javelins give massive boosts. We can optimize exploiting the mechanic in a variety of ways if you really want to, but it's also almost impossible not abusing this involuntarily.
2. It breaks the game in too many levels to be ignored: negating gold management; flooding markets; hindering growth in other skills;
3. The sooner they change this, the better they can calibrate both the economy and blacksmithing leveling. The skill makes such an impact they will probably have to tune the economy when they finally fix this and find a better way to implement actual ways to acquire high tier gear (other than marrying and sending your spouses off alone in battle until they die). Also, it would probably be bad if they just hit blacksmithing with the nerf-bat to a point you have to grind a trillion thamaskene weapons to lvl it up. Considering every patch they fix something they break something else, prioritizing this is key if they want a functioning full-release in less than a year.
4. We shouldn't be working around something in-game to NOT break the game. Suggesting this is ridiculous. This argument alone should be enough, honestly.
1. It's very easy to abuse. Everyone finds it out eventually without much effort. No need for brainstorming, looking for guides, cheats, etc... All you gotta do is smith. Some polearms give massive boosts, most 2-h swords give massive boosts, javelins give massive boosts. We can optimize exploiting the mechanic in a variety of ways if you really want to, but it's also almost impossible not abusing this involuntarily.
2. It breaks the game in too many levels to be ignored: negating gold management; flooding markets; hindering growth in other skills;
3. The sooner they change this, the better they can calibrate both the economy and blacksmithing leveling. The skill makes such an impact they will probably have to tune the economy when they finally fix this and find a better way to implement actual ways to acquire high tier gear (other than marrying and sending your spouses off alone in battle until they die). Also, it would probably be bad if they just hit blacksmithing with the nerf-bat to a point you have to grind a trillion thamaskene weapons to lvl it up. Considering every patch they fix something they break something else, prioritizing this is key if they want a functioning full-release in less than a year.
4. We shouldn't be working around something in-game to NOT break the game. Suggesting this is ridiculous. This argument alone should be enough, honestly.
You can't use smithing at all with out it ****ing you over, it not an exploit it's just ****ed up.
The #1 issue is this: If a player decides they want to level up smithing and unlock parts and get the +attribute perks they will flood all shops and tournament prizes with "Crafted item", they will further more rapidly inflate their character level a stunt their growth in other skills. This is not an exploit this is just smithing. It causes problems in the game and makes the game worse.
Issue #2: Is the player making money easily via smithing, this is something the player can opt out of but it's a much lesser issue then 1st one, which is unavoidable if you smith weapons.
I think they should remove crafted items appearing in the world and also remove the learning speed reduction form character level.
At least then people could do what they want and use the smithing without ruining their character thinking "oh boy I'm going to get +1 vigor and +1 other stat....
I wasn't talking about price and my impression of what he said was that it was a stock weapon. If your were talking about first off the rip, go for the Eastern Polesword in Husn Fulq. It is cheaper than the others, almost as long, alomst as much damage, but if you sell your (terrible) starting weapons then it costs nothing, whereas the long glaive is a lot of your starting capital + risk of steppe bandit rape.
Unless you're going for an RP play through, of course.
What makes you think I haven't? I play one-handed sword whenever I find myself thinking, "Man, this game is too fun, how do I make it ****ing terrible?"
So the exploit that is being talked about is where people are using smithing to power level ones character while putting no attribute points in endurance and no focus points in smithing. So they cap their smithing out something super low like 25 or under but since the character leveling system uses the unmodified experience towards character level they can rapidly level their character level to 20 while keeping smithing at the 25 or less range. Basically using smithing to generate character experience without actually leveling smithing
As for actually leveling smithing on a character that is a character development flaw that isn't unique to smithing at all just most people don't have a high opinion on smithing on your primary character. So this isn't an issue with smithing as it is character development as whole being a separate issue.
As for crafted items being generated in shops and as prizes that is an issue in how the crafted items are stored and the system that is used to generate shop inventory and prizes which could be solved in a couple different ways. Storing the crafted items data on a separate table/list or adding a crafted sw that the game looks for being allowed as a generated item. So this is an issue but not related to the exploitation mentioned above with is the premise of what was being discussed.
I do agree that crafted items being part of the list of items that can be generated is a bit of an issue specially since I am pretty sure every crafted item generates a unique item id regardless of the fact that you can craft two items with the same everything including stats. So over time if you craft a lot of items which isn't uncommon seeing crafted items appear is going to be more and more likely just due to percentages but a separate issue from exploitation of smithing.
Is not an exploit, it's just how exp works now and is true for all capped skills, to the detriment of character min/max and fun alike.
smithing doesn't break the game. grow up.
So having 50 javelins on call to pay for anything is fine for the economy?
Dr-Shinobi
some wise man once said. If the material acually where worth as much as the thing you where smithing. Personally i would say a little bit more 20% and more depending on your skills... since you have the handy craft to that you charge for. However then we actually have the balance of the game that is weapons for sale price to your character so maybe you should spit out different types of weapons from an scale of good and bad depending on your skills and rng .So ex a sword that only cost 2 crude iron 1 coal will become a cheap piece of **** sword for lets say 230 something denars which can go up or down depending on the condition and stats along with skills. However you also gonna have the market filled with crap of which they need to clean now and then un to varius arms dealers who sells them to lets say troops so they disappears since you can basically get full tier weaponry and armory pretty easy now anyways without cheese
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I am well aware of how the exp works and even said how it works. It is being exploited since people are gaming the system for the purpose of farming character levels through smithing. You can generate 5+ character levels in a few in game days just by smithing up a bunch of items that give high amount of experience making it the most efficient way to generate character levels with little time lost in game. Smithing isn't just a cash farm but also an experience farm with the character level progression change. So when people are using smithing for the purpose of farming a metric crap ton of experience in a short period of time it is an exploit as that is not what was intended.
The economy is already broken to begin with realistically. The problem is they are using your typical RPG game economy in a game that should be more focused on trying to pay the bills then keeping the highest tier gear locked behind a pay wall for game play balance. Since they are trying to balance the economy between keeping the bills payed style and your epic fantasy rpg style the whole thing is falling flat on it's face. They should just scale all of the gear down in price and just focus on the keeping the bills payed play style.
While you can turn the tide of battle yourself that doesn't mean you can do everything yourself. Legitimately being able to fight 1v1000 or even 1v100 with none of your troops spawned while not impossible is extremely difficult to pull off making it improbable enough that it is near impossible for average gamers. This makes it so that even if you do have earlier access to the higher tier of gear that doesn't mean you can just completely forsake rolling around with troops. Then there is the chance of a choice between buying warhorses to upgrade your cav or buying that sweet piece of gear.
There is a system in place that alters the stats to be less if you have a level less then the difficulty and more from some smithing perks. Personally like I said above I say just scale all gear down and focus the economy balancing around keeping the bills payed style, not this hybrid one that is going on.
But that only hurts the player though since levels don't give you any advantage whatsoever. Only raising skills help you and you will raise skills more slowly the higher you level.
It sounds like you don't though. Also sounds like you think leveling up is somehow beneficial when it isn't at all.
level of the character doesn't mean much to be honest. skills that matter the most have no relation to the level of character or boost in levels through smithing.
i currently running SEmpire and my character is caped at 50 of polearm (man Imperial spears suck) and 50 of bow skill. And it's totally fine. I haven't touched smithing at all, at the same time steward, leadership and charm are above 150 as it now.
I just fail to see how power-leveling through smithing is game-breaking...
rng system of unlocks for smithing is another story though.
it's bloated. i mean... yeah you can craft your own personal sword with a shiny bits... but.. what if i need a particular set of components, and in order to get those i need to grind my backside out... it would be wiser to just link tiers of components to a level of smithing skill. 50 t1 100 t2 150 t3 200 t4 250 t5.
Mr. Walfington
Recruit
Yeah this is exactly the issue. There are stat incentives for going down the smithing tree, which makes it worth it for anyone min-maxing VIG or CTR. Plus Issue #3, crafted weapons are very useful and interesting to customize. I make my char and all companions custom weapons, especially 2h axes, javelins, 2h polearms, 1h swords, etc.
This guy... after that 5-page essay about how cheaters are bad, he admits to using a mod to cheat blacksmithing and make all patterns available. This absolutely concedes that A) he knows smithing is broken and B) he literally cheats himself, invalidating everything he said. I'm not even going to bother replying to the TW white knights, you guys are so balls deep in delusion that absolutely nothing positive can result from a dialogue. Btw, I did stop smithing for levels and money, but the damage is done and I'd have to start a new game... I suppose that's the experience you want for every user, right? It's all fine. Lol.
You fail at discussion.
Why ? Because you want to win. It is like you start at the end, 'my opinion is right'. And 'I only need to prove it/attack the rest.'.
How you will proceed ? Those who disagree with the truth that is my opinion are either haters, or liars or something, the inferior. At least the ignorant and lacking in self-reflection/perception do that. All they spill is hatred for not being able to force their worldview, that power over others was denied to them. This is how mini-dictators work IRL. Then they bring in pain to break you. If that fails, they are at a loss. And you win.
So, lets do some deconstruction of your accusation of hypocrisy.
The other person admitted that unlocks arent fun and such. And admitted to using what you called cheats. The difference between you and he/she is that they dont want to take others freedom of action away, unlike you. Because unlike you, they are more likely to understand that their understanding of what is fun to them is not universal. Which you obviously do not fathom. You on the other hand imply that everybody lacks self control and that everyone reasonable (exactly just like yourself) is only trying to win, because only the win is where you try to reach. (pretty shallow goal imo) Your lack of self control is used as a justification to limit (control) other people, because you imply the rest are (lacking in self control) like you. (basically, raping others freedom of choice and making them too stupid to choose for themselves, it feels like you think that you are above the rest actually) It does feel like, oh well, there is lots of beer in the shop, there is lots of hard alcohol. And you got all the money, you lack self control, you buy it all, drink it all, claiming unresponsibility for your actions. At best you end up in hospital from alcohol poisoning, in worse scenarios, you end up beaten of beat someone or end up in a coffin.
) And from the coffin you would call : All alcohol needs to be banned, IT was responsible for my actions! Because you failed to say no to your urges. Children are generally taken as not being responsible for their conduct. Until certain age. Narcissists stay children, they accuse their victims of wrongdoing, they dont take responsibility for their very own wrongdoing. If an alcoholic beats you, you are responsible, YOU looked at them wrong !A knife in the kitchen can slice bread and it can murder also. People who do not take responsibility for their actions, who claim they are unable to control the wrong in them, (claiming to have never done any wrong) people like this will ban knives, thinking it is the knife that is responsible. But I hope that you understand that the knife is not the problem, it is the user. A knife is a facilitator through which to carry either evil intent or to defend, or to slice bread. Mentally ill people (like old children) should have no access to weapons of course, because they are often, unable to control their crave to power over others. And violence, physical, mental and otherwise, is the weapon of choice, when it comes to enforcing ones will. This kind of people do all they can and can not to get to top positions in their respective places. They enforce their rules, of unfreedom yet they themselves ignore all laws at will. Because laws are for the inferior.(in their heads)
Do you understand that you come to wrong conclusions ? You start with conclusions and search for their justifications.
What you should do is first question whether there is a basis for your conclusions, why did you do it. Put your person off the universes center, and instead, watch from the side. What will more likely happen is that you might start seeing perspectives that you did not have. It might help you from trying to force your viewpoint onto others. Hurling insults. After the rage quits, that self-your validation didnt work out, do think.
Why is your motivation trying to limit others freedom of action ? Especially when it doesnt affect anybody else. Who do you think you are, who do you think gave you such right ? Who gave you the right to command others on how to think ? Who gave you the idea that makes you think that you are in the right ? And if you are not in the right, then why do you not rethink your 'axioms' ? Or is it an insult to be challenged ?
In another forum, not on this site I was called a phobe of this, phobe of that, and got 'some' nice permabans. People got enraged and they took their hurt feelings, and them being insulted as a proof of my wrongdoing, as if a proof without proof, well, really, it was gaslighting. And ones feelings and senses are not objective reality, those are not objective facts. I can only hope that there is still some hope that people do not submit to that evil groupthink of perversion. Because these people take their pain as a basis for trying to cause others pain, an example of self-righteousness. Because they choose to live in their subjective fake reality, when you strike the bubble with truth, they explode with hatred. Them telling you that you shut your mouth, yet they continue with their stream of their wicked tongues. In such a situaiton, who is the cause of the bad stuff ? The tongue, or its user, or the truth-teller ? Do you see that their hatred is inside them ? Do you see the hypocritical double standard ? They let their tongues speak, yet demand obedience and to shut up. Who do they think they are ? To me they are dumb. Because it will come back to them.
If you ever attended a university, even if the teachers there tried to enforce your compliance, through writing otherwise useless krep, if you try to write what you think is right, prepare to get challenged. Especially if you dont say yes to everything they say. (generally dont challenge them outright, especially if you pay for the university, they will fire you by not letting you pass) While you might get discriminated against, while others get easy pass, just cause they want a university title, or even a PhD., even if you dont get too far due to opposition and subversive actions, by the group installed there, them trying to take you down or change your viewpoints, calling evil people great philanthropists, and such, you will still gain in the ability on how to logically form your argumentation. Greatly aiding in your personal development, helping you hold ground against groups of wannabe chieftains who have no legitimacy to demand your obedience. The sheep who just obey whatever those in higher positions demand get it all easy, yet they dont really even live, things like values are so abstract to them, and you trying to tell and explain is very often something that resembles a professor and a person who just finished 9-10 years in school total. While I thoroughly hated my long stay in university, including the thought control enforcement in a 'democratic' country, I did manage despite the heavy opposition that was mostly about groupthink, even though they claimed that you go to universtiy to become a scientist, but when you strayed from their approved views, ohh no, enemy of their 'science'
Because universities are mostly brainwashing people with total ideological bs designed to take away critical thinking skills from you because university students are things to be brainwashed and controlled. When you dont fit, you face serious discrimination. But the washed get it all easy, if you stay on course, you will grow exponentially as a person who searches for facts and objective truth. You will see how powermongering university teachers are so often. How they wield it is primarily through unsuspecting naive young student. They tell them how awesome they are to join the uni, and those easy to take compliments are easy to mislead.So, I know what I wrote is blunt, provocative, but I do believe what I wrote as truth. Do not try to control what others do or think. Because the motivation behind it feels like getting yourself in the spotlight, for whatever reason, and get people provoked for your trying to steal their freedom. Freedom to do both good and evil. If you are prevented from doing evil by censorship, they you dont get to experience or get the understanding of why evil is wrong. You do have free will to decide, and I do not think that you are God Almighty to tell your subjects about what is right and what is wrong, because that was written very long ago already anyway.
So let me point out the hypocrisy of that post in a perspective that you'll understand.
You're five years old.
And you notice that the adult left the cookie jar on the counter, instead of on the top shelf.
What do you do?
a. Tell mom to put it back.
b. Grab some cookies and enjoy them.
Both options are correct.
But you have to choose either one. You cant mix those options together.
You cant complain about the cookie jar being on the counter while stuffing your face with cookies.
Oh man, *crunch*, they shouldn't, *crumble*, leave this here, *crunch*. Someone could *crunch* eat all the*crunch* cookies.
Dr-Shinobi
Your moves are weak dad, no wonder she left you
this what you ment ? that he could cheat on her like that and she should just had taken it like an obedience little wife ? No thank you because some have self respect and honor in this life to make it a better place..for you and for me and the entire PC gaming base
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Mr. Walfington
Recruit
Maybe if you listened in the first place instead of pumping out ad hominem attacks we would have solved this.
Here's the solution: TW will fix it, in the mean time work around the Smithing issues. It's an early access game, Smithing is being worked on. Alternatively, "here is a mod that fixes it."
Here's what you have been saying: there is no problem, you're all stupid heads, how stupid of you cheaters to pick the forbidden fruit knowing as Smithing and then blame the game for your own greed.
i am a proud father of 2 and you clearly do not understand children. please go back to the drawing board.
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