Infantry is underpowered because the inf fight takes so long right now and inf are easy targets for archers and cav. It's slower because it's too easy to turtle. Infantry skill cap is much lower than warband. Kicks are just stupid in this game
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Nerf Throwing Weapons
- Thread starter HancockT35
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you mean you dont like having a 20 foot leg?
No lol, Iv been complaining about this for a while majority of high level players think throwing weapons atm are insanely broken and need changes, And i agree to many classes have access to throwing weapons. And some classes don't even really need throwables but they just kinda have them.
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Bronk the Raven
Recruit
Throwables don't need a nerf, even though they are possibly the most dominant part of infantry combat. The other factors of combat need to rise up to its level.
More than any other factor, I think giving a buff to spears in the form of higher damage will help. Not only should spears be a primary weapon in their own right, and not a secondary as currently implemented, the damage from thrusts in general should be more damaging than they are. I don't know why the single most effective way of killing something in human history, poking to death, is so weak in this game. Increasing spear damage is realistic (I know, that dreaded word, smh), will make spear infantry more effective vs cav (on and after the charge), other inf in close combat, and will give the spear/shield combo a stronger presence, especially against a shield-less thrower. Also, it is frustrating to be on a horse at full gallop, thrust at a dude, and he doesn't die. It appears pierce damage was nerfed to balance cav by making pierce damage RELY on speed to be of any significance. Lame.
Currently, as an inf facing a thrower, you kind of need a shield to avoid death during your approach. Coming into sword range risks getting kick-throw-combo'd, especially since you have to move at them to hit, since they have the range advantage. That said, I don't think kicking is too strong. It's just that certain gameplay feels gimmicky with throwing weapons.
My favorite aspect of playing games with medieval-inspired combat is the balance of different things working together where there is never a clear winner between the competing elements. There is a place and opportunity for everything. But throwing weapons almost make spears pointless in this game. Almost...
More than any other factor, I think giving a buff to spears in the form of higher damage will help. Not only should spears be a primary weapon in their own right, and not a secondary as currently implemented, the damage from thrusts in general should be more damaging than they are. I don't know why the single most effective way of killing something in human history, poking to death, is so weak in this game. Increasing spear damage is realistic (I know, that dreaded word, smh), will make spear infantry more effective vs cav (on and after the charge), other inf in close combat, and will give the spear/shield combo a stronger presence, especially against a shield-less thrower. Also, it is frustrating to be on a horse at full gallop, thrust at a dude, and he doesn't die. It appears pierce damage was nerfed to balance cav by making pierce damage RELY on speed to be of any significance. Lame.
Currently, as an inf facing a thrower, you kind of need a shield to avoid death during your approach. Coming into sword range risks getting kick-throw-combo'd, especially since you have to move at them to hit, since they have the range advantage. That said, I don't think kicking is too strong. It's just that certain gameplay feels gimmicky with throwing weapons.
My favorite aspect of playing games with medieval-inspired combat is the balance of different things working together where there is never a clear winner between the competing elements. There is a place and opportunity for everything. But throwing weapons almost make spears pointless in this game. Almost...
That isn't necessarily an argument for throwing weapons being broken in damage/accuracy.
Aside from the in-depth experience and knowledge high level players have, they are also uniquely biased against throwables (and archery). The vast majority of this player group's preferred playstyle is (unshielded) melee combat, as that's where the highest skillcap in the game resides. Now what's the one thing that will thwart all that fancy swordmanship, no matter how good you are? If a worse player wields a melee weapon, there's little chance he'll beat you, but if he wields something ranged, that chance increases exponentially. The worse ranged weaponry is however, the less that chance becomes once more. It's an equalizer between high and low level players. Somewhat levelling the playing field between new and experienced players is more beneficial than it might seem.
Indulge me and compare the viability of ranged weaponry at its two most theoretical extremes:
- If ranged weaponry was overpowered beyond compare then the melee skillcap would become redundant. It'd still be there technically, but it would rarely if ever come into play. You'd have a really tough time differentiating high level M&B players from lower ones on the scoreboard. Right now that's not the case. Even if I'm utterly wrong about this topic and throwing weapons are insanely broken (in terms of damage/accuracy) as you say, a high level M&B player will still easily top any scoreboard. The disparity with lower level players will be greater than if throwables were nerfed in damage or accuracy, true, but as long as the disparity is significant I don't see a problem.
- If ranged weaponry didn't exist or was nerfed to the point that it might as well not exist, then the melee skillcap would become all-encompassing. The skill floor would soar and the accessibility of the game would plummet. It'll be a cold day in hell if a new player defeats someone at a higher skill level. Becoming truly good at M&B melee combat isn't something that happens overnight, it takes a lot of practice. Influx of new players would come to a grinding halt as nobody enjoys getting decimated with nothing to fall back on while they get better. In Bannerlord, as back in Warband, you see a lot of inexperienced players playing an archer class, that's no coincidence.
High level players aren't playing shield-less classes mate.
What the highest level players don't play without a shield lol
TLDR: I think BL throwing weapons are more deadly than warband counter parts due to the class system.
Well I've been a warband pubber for a very long time. And I've killed a lot people with throwing weapons. https://www.leagueofrevolution.com/online/playerstats.php?name=Sparkygravity
I only got interested in competitive warband and competitive mount and blade in the last year and half or so. I have to say the Bannerlord throwing weapons seem OP, making a shielded block correctly will often lead a side exposed and this often leads to a 1-shot from a throwing weapon from an approaching inf. In competitive warband you've got more shield coverage but if you get hit from a throwing weapon it doesn't one shot you... but you're equally f%^ked, because the stun is going to keep you from blocking while the other inf you were fighting over hands you.
Honestly I think it ties back into load out vs. class system. Sure in competitive warband you could easily get one shot by a jav to the face, or a nice tag with light armor due to 1000 gold load outs. But the real warband one-shot kills were in TDM where one could afford to buy Heavy throwing axes and Jarids which you just didn't see in scrims and battles. In BL it just feels like every throwing weapon is a Heavy Throwing Axe or Jarid. Honestly Pila's and Ash Throwing Spears are way more scary than Jarids and they work way better as a short spear than anything comparable in warband.
Well I've been a warband pubber for a very long time. And I've killed a lot people with throwing weapons. https://www.leagueofrevolution.com/online/playerstats.php?name=Sparkygravity
I only got interested in competitive warband and competitive mount and blade in the last year and half or so. I have to say the Bannerlord throwing weapons seem OP, making a shielded block correctly will often lead a side exposed and this often leads to a 1-shot from a throwing weapon from an approaching inf. In competitive warband you've got more shield coverage but if you get hit from a throwing weapon it doesn't one shot you... but you're equally f%^ked, because the stun is going to keep you from blocking while the other inf you were fighting over hands you.
Honestly I think it ties back into load out vs. class system. Sure in competitive warband you could easily get one shot by a jav to the face, or a nice tag with light armor due to 1000 gold load outs. But the real warband one-shot kills were in TDM where one could afford to buy Heavy throwing axes and Jarids which you just didn't see in scrims and battles. In BL it just feels like every throwing weapon is a Heavy Throwing Axe or Jarid. Honestly Pila's and Ash Throwing Spears are way more scary than Jarids and they work way better as a short spear than anything comparable in warband.
DainMorgot
Sergeant
Dont make throwing weapons the focus of any class, make them non-pickable again once used and hit the target, form the current skirmisher classes around more melee and reduce throwing damage. I did not buy a medieval game to play call of duty, I bought it for melee sword fights.
Aprikosenmann
Knight
Sounds like the duel server is exactly what you need. Archers and Cav will still ruin your desired "melee sword fight" experience.
DainMorgot
Sergeant
There is a very big difference between just-melee and melee focused. Again, nobody cried about throwing in Warband, but in Bannerlord they are broken. Maybe they are not broken when we talk about 1 quantity but the combination of systems that tie them together is. When a medieval game is a throw-fest then it's a turnoff. Especially when you can stack classes that allow you to use over 20 of them at any given time. My suggestions above, I believe, are a step into the right direction, without nerfing their potential. Aim and shoot should never be the majority of the game, learning the melee fundamentals should. Or I should go play CSGO.
I think the issue is with throwing weapons is due to a few different factors. For one thing, certain throwing weapons like Francescas, Pilas, and Thorwing Spears are the most powerful weapons at an infantry's disposal. Throwing weapons are. I think that's a problem. At least with Battania and Khuzaits getting throwing spears comes at a cost, for Battania it's available only by the Clan Warrior and at the cost of a shield. For Khuzait it comes at the cost of getting a sword or mace for their infantry. However for the other factions, their best troops get the best throwing weapons. Vlandian Sergeants, Empire Legionnaires. Too many classes get throwing weapons I think.
So I think perhaps lowering the Damage a bit, and limiting throwing weapons to the cheapest two classes, the peasant and 2 hander classes and you might see a change in throwing weapons being widely used. However, in doing that, it'll make infantry fights rather boring since the melee combat itself has problems and there are really no ways to get around shields because things like Chambering, Outspeeding your opponent on swings, etc are all next to impossible to do due to things like the Attack delays in animations and other minute details.
The third thing is that Infantry Melee weapons, besides a polearm or 2 handed weapon or two, all kind of suck for damage. In Warband it was completely possible to kill someone with a well placed hit, the head if they weren't wearing a helmet, the legs if they were lightly armored compared to what else they were wearing. That's gone in Bannerlord, you can't even one hit kill a Vlandian peasant wearing no more than a shirt you would wear tilling the fields with an Arming sword. Melee weapons in general need either an increase in damage, or Armor as a whole needs to be changed a bit.
If the devs were to nerf throwing weapons without tackling the other issues with melee combat first, I think that you would see a drop in people playing infantry. What would be the point then? Your damage would be terrible, you move slow, and you would have nothing really to be able to tackle Cav or Archers and would just be a walking punching bag. There to soak hits.
I agree something needs to be done about Throwing weapons, but I think those other issues should be tackled first.
So I think perhaps lowering the Damage a bit, and limiting throwing weapons to the cheapest two classes, the peasant and 2 hander classes and you might see a change in throwing weapons being widely used. However, in doing that, it'll make infantry fights rather boring since the melee combat itself has problems and there are really no ways to get around shields because things like Chambering, Outspeeding your opponent on swings, etc are all next to impossible to do due to things like the Attack delays in animations and other minute details.
The third thing is that Infantry Melee weapons, besides a polearm or 2 handed weapon or two, all kind of suck for damage. In Warband it was completely possible to kill someone with a well placed hit, the head if they weren't wearing a helmet, the legs if they were lightly armored compared to what else they were wearing. That's gone in Bannerlord, you can't even one hit kill a Vlandian peasant wearing no more than a shirt you would wear tilling the fields with an Arming sword. Melee weapons in general need either an increase in damage, or Armor as a whole needs to be changed a bit.
If the devs were to nerf throwing weapons without tackling the other issues with melee combat first, I think that you would see a drop in people playing infantry. What would be the point then? Your damage would be terrible, you move slow, and you would have nothing really to be able to tackle Cav or Archers and would just be a walking punching bag. There to soak hits.
I agree something needs to be done about Throwing weapons, but I think those other issues should be tackled first.
This is basically my point, there are more issues that are more pressing than throwing weapons. Once the major balance issues are fixed, only then will it be possible to see which direction throwing weapons should be balanced into.
Aserai skirmisher in particular is too OP. These days you'll see most players will spam skirmishers non-stop. The jereed is so high in numbers, deals massive damage, is a complete nightmare for cavalry and they have a big shield which can take a couch lance into it. Maybe devs should remove the shield from skirmishers or reduce the number of jereeds so they are not that OP.
The class system makes throwing spears far more common and irritating. For most classes there is basically no cost to bringing a giant throwing spear (Empire Legionnaire) and doming the enemy. In Warband, when there was a concrete cost to throwing weapons, people who wanted to spam javs had to build around it. If it cost 400 gold for Jarids then you might think twice, as it could cost you a lot of armour points. Meanwhile, Bannerlord doesn't punish these stupid builds at all -- it's all reward and no risk.
Good point. In warband 8v8's really the only faction you would see spamming throwing weapons was Nords because the cav could drop them for free.
Skirmish basically consists of 180dmg headshots by throwing weapons right now. And don't even think a shield would protect you against it. As soon as you are in close combat and try to take a swing, you get it right in the face from 2cm distance. It just makes me wanna punch my screen.
