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Nerf Throwing Weapons
- 主题发起人 HancockT35
- 开始时间
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What? I use them all the time and play with them all the time and I can 1 shot people and hit the throw a insane amount of the time. Weird move essentially calling me a noob cause you disagree with me Yikes!!!
Aprikosenmann
Knight
You think that hitting a Headshot (since you talk about 1shots) with a throwing weapon is super easy? I am a big noob then because I find it quite hard.
I feel like this thread was sparked by some in-game tilt rather than an objective analysis. A lot of ''nerf this, nerf that'' threads are though.
I don't see how throwables would still be viable after nerfing either their accuracy or damage. Neither of those values have appeared problematic or overtuned in my ~200h of MP experience.
As some people have already mentioned though, throwables' omnipresence might need a tweak. Too many infantry classes have access to them in too great a number. A Sturgian Berserker running away from a melee brawl in order to take potshots from a safe distance doesn't feel very in line with the class' concept. Aserai Skirmisher, Imperial Recruit, Battanian Wildling and Sturgian Brigand appear like the only true skirmisher classes. Anyone else could have their throwable usage revoked or limited in number.
I don't see how throwables would still be viable after nerfing either their accuracy or damage. Neither of those values have appeared problematic or overtuned in my ~200h of MP experience.
As some people have already mentioned though, throwables' omnipresence might need a tweak. Too many infantry classes have access to them in too great a number. A Sturgian Berserker running away from a melee brawl in order to take potshots from a safe distance doesn't feel very in line with the class' concept. Aserai Skirmisher, Imperial Recruit, Battanian Wildling and Sturgian Brigand appear like the only true skirmisher classes. Anyone else could have their throwable usage revoked or limited in number.
It’s not archers there selves that are op( imo warband archer stronger) it’s the lack of options to counter the archer, in warband, class system let you get a bigger shield and have cavalry without spending 2000000 dollars, imo warband just better in general
Spears are about the only thing that should be able to get through mail+, throwing spears are not OP as far as damage is concerned, perhaps they could be less accurate and smaller stack size.
Actually, throwing weapons as a whole are a lot harder to use in Bannerlord. The speed at which they move has been nerfed to the point it feels like they are a pebble being meekly tossed. Pilas and throwing spears can one shot without headshots, but this is traded off by the fact that taking pilas sacrifices the ability to get a spear, and the chances to take a throwable spear are pretty rare (only a couple classes?). There are a lot of inconsistencies with throwing weapons at the moment which as Best Throws NA, greatly upset me.
1. Javelins are terrible compared to Warband javelins for a few reasons
- They do so little damage that a direct headshot will only do 90 damage (against any kind of helmet) not a one shot kill
- There are less of them you can take per quiver compared to Warband
- Although they are more accurate than other throwing weapons, there is a far great movement accuracy penalty compared to Warband which limits the range of strategies you can use with them
- Like spears, their melee mode attack direction has been reduced to only two directions instead of the four present in Warband
- They have a strange parabola arc (some type of steep drop off at a certain distance compared to a constant drop) which limits the distance strategies which were previously present with Warband javelins.
2. Throwing weapons have great inconsistencies across factions
- Vlandia has access to "Francescas" which have (1?) less ammunition than a jav quiver, yet they deal something like 93 damage, which is far greater than the "Northern throwing axes" choice of the Sturgians.
-The damage dealt by Javs and their throwing parabolas are different according to whatever faction you are using. Harpoons are lighter and encounter the steep drop off less quickly, Aserai javs are heavier yet somehow more accurate, Vlandia and Empire javs seem to be similar..
These types of inconsistencies make throwing weapons more difficult to use in Bannerlord than in Warband, and from what I have seen they are actually less accurate than they were in Warband. I believe the issue here is the massive movement speed debuff infantry gets when holding up a shield allows for throwing weapon users to flank around the sides of shielding inf and get a clear side shot at them. Maybe Taleworlds should remove the shield movement speed debuff, or at least lessen its effects.
1. Javelins are terrible compared to Warband javelins for a few reasons
- They do so little damage that a direct headshot will only do 90 damage (against any kind of helmet) not a one shot kill
- There are less of them you can take per quiver compared to Warband
- Although they are more accurate than other throwing weapons, there is a far great movement accuracy penalty compared to Warband which limits the range of strategies you can use with them
- Like spears, their melee mode attack direction has been reduced to only two directions instead of the four present in Warband
- They have a strange parabola arc (some type of steep drop off at a certain distance compared to a constant drop) which limits the distance strategies which were previously present with Warband javelins.
2. Throwing weapons have great inconsistencies across factions
- Vlandia has access to "Francescas" which have (1?) less ammunition than a jav quiver, yet they deal something like 93 damage, which is far greater than the "Northern throwing axes" choice of the Sturgians.
-The damage dealt by Javs and their throwing parabolas are different according to whatever faction you are using. Harpoons are lighter and encounter the steep drop off less quickly, Aserai javs are heavier yet somehow more accurate, Vlandia and Empire javs seem to be similar..
These types of inconsistencies make throwing weapons more difficult to use in Bannerlord than in Warband, and from what I have seen they are actually less accurate than they were in Warband. I believe the issue here is the massive movement speed debuff infantry gets when holding up a shield allows for throwing weapon users to flank around the sides of shielding inf and get a clear side shot at them. Maybe Taleworlds should remove the shield movement speed debuff, or at least lessen its effects.
Aprikosenmann
Knight
Dont nerf them, increase counterplay. Imagine you would nerf archers right now. Cav would be even more OP.
Increase Infantry shield size against arrows.
1. A pila or a throwing spear is obviously a spear as they can be used in melee the same way as a spear, in fact they have all the upside of being able to be used as a spear and being a throwable couch
2. Javs do a **** ton of damage what are you on
3. Movement accuracy penalty? Ok, then stop moving for half a second and see the cursor go to literally 100% accuracy. You can't do that in warband.
4. Melee mode attack is much better on throwing weapons (particularly javs) than warband. They do more damage, have a faster animation, less risk because shields allow you to turtle forever whereas in warband you would get spammed if you had a shield and jav out. In Warband no one used javs in melee because they were dog**** (as they should be), and least of all did anyone make use of jav's 4 attack directions.
5. You couldn't hit warband javs from far away consistently because they didn't have the insane accuracy bannerlord javs do
6. Your argument that throwing weapons are weak is that some factions have more broken throwing weapons than others...?
7. Less accurate than in warband? If you stop moving your cursor is completely accurate and it can be held at that accuracy forever.
8. Get rid of shield movement speed debuff...??? Because turtling isn't already easy enough for you I guess.
Can't tell if you're a troll or just braindead
I wanted to reply to his post but you pretty much nailed it all.
Pilas are actually better than spears in melee because they have like 5 more dmg, which on a thrusting weapon is a lot.
I have the suspicion that so many troops are given throwing weapons because they're effective at killing horses. Since the spear's effect on rearing cavalry has been nerfed (because of a strangely reduced or inconsistent hitbox), throwing weapons are now meant to be seen as a reliable replacement. Plus, while I haven't tested it myself, some people are saying projectiles more consistently receive a momentum boost compared to melee attacks, which would add to their effectiveness in bringing cavalry down.
The problem is that it's not just bad for cavalry, since infantry have to suffer it as well (possibly even more). Players aren't only going to use throwing weapons on horses. The more that people use them in a server, the more annoying it is - just like archer spam. I wouldn't want to take out ranged weaponry completely (apart from Groupfighting and Duel), but mixing melee with shooting mechanics in a combat game is always a troublesome issue. "Why bother fighting people when you can just shoot them?" Actively encouraging throwing weapons (and forcing them into the equipment selection) seems like a silly thing to do.
It doesn't work as a good replacement for spears either, since effective spearwork was one of the most joyful things about the series. I have so much more respect for players who use a spear effectively, and any kind of melee, as opposed to ranged weaponry. I'm pretty sure lots of others (including in SP) have complained about how spears have been nerfed too. It's one of the main elements that makes Bannerlord less satisfying.
The problem is that it's not just bad for cavalry, since infantry have to suffer it as well (possibly even more). Players aren't only going to use throwing weapons on horses. The more that people use them in a server, the more annoying it is - just like archer spam. I wouldn't want to take out ranged weaponry completely (apart from Groupfighting and Duel), but mixing melee with shooting mechanics in a combat game is always a troublesome issue. "Why bother fighting people when you can just shoot them?" Actively encouraging throwing weapons (and forcing them into the equipment selection) seems like a silly thing to do.
It doesn't work as a good replacement for spears either, since effective spearwork was one of the most joyful things about the series. I have so much more respect for players who use a spear effectively, and any kind of melee, as opposed to ranged weaponry. I'm pretty sure lots of others (including in SP) have complained about how spears have been nerfed too. It's one of the main elements that makes Bannerlord less satisfying.
+1
As long as ranged weapons deal far more damage than melee attacks they will be used (even in melee). Heavy Infantry gets access to throwing weapons in similar amounts to skirmisher classes. It needs to be their first step to nerf ranged weapons (damage and amount). Then they can fix cavalry issues and give melee counterplays versus cavalry.
1. And they also have the downside of being 30 length shorter than a spear (length being the main purpose of using a spear).
2. Javs do less damage than every other throwing weapon in the game, and comparatively less damage to Warband javs as their headshots are not a one hit from full health. (Except with recruit classes) Edit: Vlandian Francescas do 109 damage, 4 less than Pilas, yet they have 3 shots as opposed to two, and you can fire them all from one inventory slot, why does nobody complain about them? (This illustrates how javs which do 40-60 damage are underpowered compared to all other throwing weapons for no particular reason, this is a redundant inconsistency, either buff one or nerf one, but level the playing field with strengths and weaknesses..)
3. Movement accuracy penalty is very important for throwing weapons, as their purpose is to be used on mobile infantry. Compared to Warband, the movement accuracy penalty is far greater for throwing weapons, and this deprives throwing weapon of one of their main strengths.
4. In Warband you could practically chain stun someone with a jav in melee due to it having a polearm stun duration and a very fast speed. Many people used them in melee, myself included. Since it takes much longer to switch throwing weapons into melee mode in BL (you have to do a long spinning animation) it means that it is unsafe to use throwing weapons up close without a shield, removing another strength of throwing weapons that was present in Warband.
5. It's harder to hit shots with Bannerlord throwing weapons from a distance because people move, and the Bannerlord throwing weapons fly through the air at least twice as slow as the slowest moving Warband projectile. If you see someone throw at you, you can dodge it from basically any distance besides point blank in Bannerlord. Projectile speed is a greater factor in making Bannerlord throws more inaccurate than Warband throws at a distance than the factor of Bannerlord throws having a slightly smaller reticle size when throwing at a complete standstill.
6. My argument is that throwing weapons have multi-variables which differ between all factions, and within factions for the same throwing weapon. This is annoying, confusing, and completely unnecessary, but compared to my other problems with the throwing system in Bannerlord, it is a minor issue.
7. See number 5, this point you make was the same point you made in number 5.
8. Well considering infantry is the weakest class in the game, I believe a buff somewhere is necessary. You seem to be vitriolic when making the unfounded assumption that I turtle, seeing as how we have never met. I do not like shields being as durable as they are, and if you look through my previous activity (posted at/near the start of early access) or my steam review, you will see that I have made many complaints about how durable the shields are and how it slows down an already sluggish combat system.
I have probably played this series longer than you, I have been active in many communities since 2013, I only joined the forums several years after the fact and that is to enter the occasional tournament. This is because of the pointless discourse on the forums such as this.
最后编辑:
i dont respect anything callum has to say srry
Yeah, a long time ago and they're still OP lmao
1. Decreased spear length and faster speed may be some debuff against cav but regular spears usually don't do that much against cav anyway, throwing spear is faster in melee and does more damage making it better in inf fights. Also why should a throwable couch (which is capable of doing 200 damage to a charging cav) be as good as a regular spear in melee anyway? What's the purpose of the spear perk?
2. Javs are often used by recruit tier units, and they are already too overpowered when those units can take 7. Are you actually going to argue that Francescas don't do more damage than pilas lmfao. People are complaining about throwing weapons in general, not just spears or pilas, throwing weapons are overpowered across the bored.
3. Even while moving throwing weapons are about as accurate as they were in warband(Where they weren't that accurate). While not moving in Bannerlord they are pretty much 100% accurate which is the change.
4. Maybe people used them in melee on tdm lmfao
5. Boo-hoo, your insanely accurate throwing weapon isn't a laser that can hit someone across a courtyard immediately? That's the point of throwing weapons they SHOULD be more accurate (still not that accurate) at close range and very inconsistent at a distance. Slightly smaller size retical? You are talking about a retical that is the same size as for a crossbow. By the same logic, archers are also underpowered because projectile speeds are lower (they aren't underpowered).
6. Little effect on gameplay
8. Infantry is underpowered because it isn't as punishing nor as skill based as infantry play in Warband. Shields last forever, throwing weapons are too overpowered, it's easy to turtle, kicks are too easy, hilt slash is removed, block delay, etc. The solution to this isn't implementing even more 0 skill bull**** for people to abuse.
I don't care how long you've played on TDM, doesn't change that your suggestions on throwing weapons are completely ****ing wrong.
Aprikosenmann
Knight
Dear Lord this escalated quickly.
Nr.8. is very cringe though. Inf is underpowered because its too hard (turtle) and too easy (kicks) to kill inf as inf. U ****ing serious?
Nr.8. is very cringe though. Inf is underpowered because its too hard (turtle) and too easy (kicks) to kill inf as inf. U ****ing serious?
最后编辑:
Hardly ever played TDM, played competitive Warband and battle/duel for around 5 years.
1. Spears should do more damage to cavalry in general but that is a separate issue. In my experience so far even a pila headshotting a charging heavy cav doesent one hit it most of the time.
2. Javs do about 35~ ish damage per hit on most armoured infantry, about the same as a bow with "Stronger Bow" perk selected. They do not kill helmeted units with a headshot, and they do comparable damage to a stronger bow archer shot. Yet unlike a bow, they fire slower, the projectile moves so slowly that it is a harder shot to hit, and it can be dodged, and the reticle makes it less accurate. I think archers are overpowered, but if they were nerfed to the point they only had seven arrows that moved like it was thrown by a 12 year old girl in a amateur softball game, almost everyone would agree that the would be nerfed too much.. Yet you call this overpowered.
3. This is objectively incorrect, you can examine footage comparatively for both games and see that the movement accuracy penalty is far greater in Bannerlord. With the extremely slow projectile speed it makes it basically impossible to aim while moving and my point still stands.
4. Not an argument.
5&7. This is a strawman of my argument for a few reasons.
-They are not "lazers" in Warband, and they were pretty well balanced where you couldn't dodge them at 2 horse lengths away but around 8 horse lengths away you could track and dodge them fairly consistently. Nobody ever accused Warband throwing weapons of being "Lazers" and they were in a pretty fair state of balance even though they moved more quickly and the javelins did more damage.
- If the arrows of archers was as slow as the projectile speed for throwing weapons, they would be underpowered.
- Crossbows are a lot more accurate in terms of reticle than javs, even more so with other throwing weapons.
- Also, throwing weapon reticles has a "wave" effect where they grow smaller and larger unlike crossbows.
6. It has an effect even though it is minor, and it is slightly annoying to have to aim differently with javs across 8~ different classes.
8. I agree with everything except the throws being overpowered (obviously). Throwing weapons seem better than they are because the current state of game balance is abysmal, especially the state infantry is in. In terms of priorities, compared to the state of archers and cavalry, throwing weapons are nowhere near as broken as those two classes (specifically heavy cav)... If throwing weapons are nerfed then it would be taking away one more tool that the already greatly underpowered infantry desperately needs against archers and cav.
So if we create a running list of the things that are overpowered in this game
- Heavy Cav
- Archers
- Shield health (which affects infantry primarily)
We can see that basically all of the classes except light cav (and some argue the horse bump mechanic is too easy overall so this could be extended to all classes) have mechanics that need balancing... Do throwing weapons need to be a priority right now? No. Could they be in the future when things have settled down from EA state? Possibly.
Zoonanay
Knight
I've noticed that if you move in the opposite dircection to your momentum, despite the crosshair remaining wide your effective accuracy seems to increase. Counter-strafing is pretty much as accurate as stand-throwing from what I can tell whilst also allowing you to maintain most of your own momentum and getting the momentum bonus from the throw.
I'm not sure if it's just confirmation bias but my consistency of throwing is pretty high seemingly due to this technique. And when I tested in Duel Server against a wall seemed to be more accurate but was a limited sample of throws.
Also noticed jump-shotting is easier than in Warband with the reduced shield zone, but the timing's a bit weird with the jump and throw delay.
I'm not sure if it's just confirmation bias but my consistency of throwing is pretty high seemingly due to this technique. And when I tested in Duel Server against a wall seemed to be more accurate but was a limited sample of throws.
Also noticed jump-shotting is easier than in Warband with the reduced shield zone, but the timing's a bit weird with the jump and throw delay.
