SP - General Better influence system

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GitiUsir

Sergeant
Old Guard
(Work in progress)

INFLUENCE

Influence coin = used to vote in kingdom council decisions
1 coin for every castle, 2 coins for every city
1 coin for being a clan in the kingdom, 1 coin for being the ruling clan

Ex: ruling clan owns 1 city -> ruling clan vote = 4
major clan owns 1 city -> vote = 3
medium clan owns 1 castle -> vote = 2
minor clan owns village -> vote = 1

Notes:
.- There could be 1 minor clan for every village but if that's too many clans it could be a minor clan for every pack of villages, usually 2 per castle, 3 per city
.- At the moment there are too many cities in the map. Recommended changing from 6 per kingdom to 3 per kingdom. This way there are 3 major clans per kingdom
.- Castles should have a village population, representing people living in lands around the castle but outside the walls
.- Cities have their population protected by walls and there is an additional castle inside the city, the keep.


POWER

Clan = political entity formed by members with family ties, by blood, marriage or adoption
SubClan = Clan subordinated to a higher clan due to fief geographic and political dependency. Ex: a castle depending on the nearest city, or village associated with a fief
Clan tiers = power level

CLAN TIERALLOWED RECRUITMENTJOB
1 = no kingdomonly individual mercenaries or thugswarband for hire or crime
2 = 1 village minaffiliated village leviesbarony, minor clans
3 = 1 castle minaffiliated castle levies, can call subordinated baronscounty, medium clans
4 = 1 city minaffiliated city levies, can call subordinated countsduchy, major clans
5 = 1 city min + being kingaffiliated city levies, can call subordinated countskingdom, ruling clan,



. For gameplay reasons the owner of a fief should be a lord, not a clan, to avoid a clan steamrolling everything. A clan will always want to own more land but feudalism works this way: a lord owes a nominal loyalty to higher nobility, but inside his lands he is like a king, in all effects being a new independent clan even if he belonged to a clan before. Though he will keep strong relations with his former patron at least for a while.

.- Clans should tend to own just 1 fief. If a clan member is given a castle or city there is a chance he will form a new clan, depending on military situation (unlikely during a war) and proximity to clan leader fief (unlikely if his castle is subordinated to a clan leader city). If a clan leader loses his fief and becomes a ronin he can return to his former clan. . Minor clan members don't become independent clans because they can't hold their villages without walls.

.- This doesn't mean a clan can't have several family members, they would serve as replacements if leader is killed or prisoner, and as fief governor (not fief owner who is the clan leader), or fief dwellers or leaders of clan patrols. There is no need to keep record of complex family trees other than the player's. Only 2-3 family members are needed for NPC families. This can be expanded and contracted with random characters as needed.

.- When a castle is lost (to enemies or kingdom politics), subordinated clans must make a loyalty check weather to follow the landless count or not. The latter will keep the claim to his lost fief for a while. Eventually if the fief is not recovered within a short time he will lose the claim and his clan will become a tier 1 ronin for hire, the same as his loyal sub clans. The subclans that failed a loyalty check will join the new fief owner keeping their fiefs but gaining disloyal trait.

.- When a city is lost subordinated clans must make a loyalty check. Counts make an easier check because castles can hold their lands against attacks, but minor nobility belonging to the lost city villages will think twice. Castles can remain loyal as long as the claim to the duchy is held (again short time) but their villages will become linked to the nearest city in the same kingdom. If the city isn't recovered before the claim is lost, they become subordinated to the nearest duke in same faction. If the nearest city changes they follow the same rule. If the nearest city is not within a minimum distance it means they are isolated from their market which imposes a bigger threat to their loyalty checks because cities act as politic-economic hubs for surrounding castles. It wouldn't be rare if an isolated count defects with his castle, villages and subclans, and joins a closer kingdom.
Isolated cities on the other hand can hold their lands fairly well. But if military situation and/or relation with king is bad they could do the same, the whole duchy and subclans changing allegiance or becoming a new independent kingdom. Also, this can happen due to political negotiations when negotiating peace or alliances between kingdoms.

.- Minor clans never change allegiance on their own.


KINGDOM POLICIES

Policies incrementing:

minor clans power ..... increasing village political independency and decreasing duties, taxes and resources owed to linked castle
medium clans power ..... increasing castle political independency and decreasing duties, taxes and resources owed to linked city
major clans power ..... increasing city political independency and decreasing duties, taxes and resources owed to kingdom
ruling clan power ..... increasing duties, taxes and resources at every level, and decreasing political independency at every level

.- If a kingdom is expanding fast or losing land the more convenient policy is feudalism, the kingdom concedes power to clans which in turn hold the land against enemies.
.- If foreign relations are stable the ruling clan will try to take power from clans. Absolutism allows advanced military and economy but decreases resilience and increases corruption. In absolutism ruling clan vote is doubled, tripled or quadrupled with each level, leaving other clans increasingly powerless.
.-


KINGDOM DECISIONS

.- To solve kingdom decisions instantly, interactions between clans are simulated, i.e. no need to talk directly to clan leaders.

.- To promote a policy or political change a clan must collect enough support, either 1 major clan, 2 medium clans or 4 minor clans. Ruling clan can always assemble the council, other clans need 1 or more supporters. The council is automatically assembled after every conquest.

.- When the council is assembled the decision is delayed for 1 day to give time to the player, after which the decision is handled automatically. The council screen displays current clan stances and the player can interact with other clans. After every interaction other clans can change their positions owing to opposite sides recalculating their chances. This is automatic until the player wants no more changes.

.- The council voting means every clan defends its political position but ultimately the king decides every political issue. This will result in worsening relations with frustrated clans, improving them with benefitted ones and no changes with neutral ones. The king must play with the different parties to prevent the kingdom falling apart. If the king decides against majority support he will take a bigger hit to relations, if decision has majority support a smaller hit, representing the weight of general consensus. Thus deciding in favour of majority is more advantageous but the contrary is always possible.

.- When dealing with other clans the model should be: clan X votes in favor of clan Y in exchange for clan Y vote in future decision. This can happen both by player or AI interaction (even prompting the player asking for his clan vote when AI interaction). As consequence, clans must have an associated variable linked to other clans like a "clan influence slot" so to speak. This variable will store votes in the debit or in the credit with corresponding clan.

.- In a council decision, a clan will collect other clans debited votes or will barter for votes alloting its vote to other clans credit. Refusing to give an owed vote will cause a drop in relations. If a clan owes more than 3 votes to another it won't get more credit. When a clan gives vote it loses relation with favoured clan. When the latter clan pays debited vote the relation lost is restored.

.- A non ruling clan will lose or gain a bit in relations with other clans with every vote other than neutral. Relations take a big hit if a clan refuses to pay debited vote. Major clans which don't need to gather support so often but when they do they will need to compromise their vote with sevaral lower clans which may cause issues when paying debts because their vote is promised to several clans.

.- To prevent the player from always gaining relations changing his vote if he is going to lose a decision it isn't allowed to change side once the political battle begins. So when the decision process begins, only the proposer and his supporters are shown in the screen. If player engages in the process, either by voting, being requested or requesting votes himself, he can't change sides from then on.


To be continued
 
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Am I the only one unhappy with SPENDABLE influence "points"?
I am no big fan of mana-systems like this, They are boring and uninspired in paradox games and so they are here. But i could live with it, if the rest of the game was engaging, which it is not atm.
 
"To spend your influence" is a common saying so I don't think spendable influence points are out of course. However if anyone have something better in mind please speak up. I'm going to edit the OP with more ideas. It's going to be a mess but I don't have a clear design yet, I'm just working on it.
 
I kinda agree with you, right now the influence system feels really bad design. The dual-purpose is one problem for me, while I'm a merc I get paid for my influence points when I'm a vassal I only use it to "buy" decisions/fiefs. First I would like to see a separation, for merc just give me a contract like in Warband (maybe one where I can use skillchecks like charm, etc. to influence level of payment). Second, the Vassal influence is, in the beginning, a pain to get. For example, if ur kingdom has already some policies that decrease influence, you essentially cant take part in any voting or army creation, as u first need to get at least 100 or 300 influence to get a fief. At later stages of the game the influence is worthless, you and every other noble has so high amounts that it won't ever run out and the whole thing feels pointless.
 
Seems you guys have to play the game more but sure there is some perks lacking at the moment which they are working on prio and perhaps some functions in diplomacy which im pretty confident will come later

I have -234 influence points but do i ***** about it..no because i know my Lord is a pretentious little arse who only wants everything for himself xD Does he pay me good along with glorious battles ?...yes! So ill continue to be his champion
 
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@Karl V. exactly, I had the same experience, first I couldn't vote, and later influence was so high it didn't matter

@Dr-Shinobi Well maybe this thread will be another useless dream. I think it's a pity because clan politics (and even gang rivalries) could make an interesting game. Anyway I am more interested in playing an imaginary game than the real one at the moment.
 
This is a cool idea and a mod I would try out after early access, since I dont think this is the direction dev's are going with it. I saw an idea in a different thread around here that I think would fit well with yours. During a war, when a fief is captured, ownership doesnt immediately change, just control. When the rulers decide to enter into a truce, they would have a negotiation, maybe some captured fiefs are given back, maybe not, that would depend on the terms of negotiation. Whatever fiefs are kept after truce, are then dolled out via political shenanigans in a feast, or council, and that's when ownership actually changes.

Cool and detailed idea you've got, figured I'd give it a bump.
 
@EternalHeathen
Thanx man. I know, I will have to do it myself but I am so lazy lately, I was hoping I could work with someone who knows better than me about coding.

Yes the idea to hold ownership change until negotiations is perfect because power shouldn't vanish from one day to the next, I would expect to see a clan fighting to keep their fief even after losing the fortress, while the new comers would have troubles establishing the new power structure.
 
Given how big a change this would be, it isnt something I'd work on until mod tools are out and ea almost over anyway. Pretty likely the mod scene will go nuclear when that happens, I doubt you'd have trouble finding someone to collab with.
 
Given how big a change this would be, it isnt something I'd work on until mod tools are out and ea almost over anyway. Pretty likely the mod scene will go nuclear when that happens, I doubt you'd have trouble finding someone to collab with.

Right this. I'm not theoretically opposed to some kind of radical revolution in the influence system that subverts the current influence as simple currency system. But I don't see that happening for practical reasons. As such, I'd gladly settle for gentler reforms to the existing influence system (more things to spend it on, further tweeks to influences sources, etc.
 
Yes I know it's stupid to work in something that might change a lot yet, but I really don't like the current system. For starters, the linear influence gains and loses implies the more you play the more unbalanced it will be. Influence means nothing if you can exploit the system until there is a steady positive income. You can make it harder to get but in the end it will accumulate with time. The same happens with money. By late game money means nothing.
 
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