SP - Player, NPCs & Troops The current character progression system is bad and here is why.

[CountDestroyer]

The current character progression system feels really annoying to manage and honestly saps my enjoyment of the game.
My main issue with it is that it incentivises in-game behaviour which is immersion-breaking or simply unenjoyable or both. For many of the skills organic growth is far too slow so the player feels forced to resort to "gamey" behaviour such as trading money with every encountered lord, carting a private army around 24/7, removing one's horse when travelling etc. not because it makes sense in roleplay terms but because it's the efficient thing to do. As I play the game I feel myself constantly being pulled out of the experience to consult a whole checklist of things I should be doing to maximise my character's growth. I want those focus and attribute points and I want them badly so I'm consciously optimising fun out of the game. Now that might be just a "me" problem but it sure would be nice if the game's design didn't encourage it.
Consider for a moment how differently Warband handled character progression. The only thing the game asked you to do was to kill dudes. Certainly not revolutionary by any means but the reason why it worked (and the reason why it works for so many games past and present) is that killing dudes is fun. Killing lots of dudes is lots of fun. It's a behaviour the player is eager to engage in regardless of any incentives or lack thereof. To put it in simple terms: Warband rewarded you for doing fun things.
To be clear I'm not arguing in favour of transplanting Warband's character progression to Bannerlord 1:1 or even at all. I'm only trying to signal that right now growing one's character is not as fun as it should and could be.

 

[SavatageRoyo]

Well said!
The problem is most prominent but not exclusive to athletics vs. riding! You want to improve your athletics so you start walking everywhere. You want tactics so you auto-resolve knowing you will take more casulties.
As you described you start to game the system, since it is the only way to progress on some skills in any reasonable time or at all.

 

[Kakuna Rattata]

Perhaps something that could help a bit is making focus points generate not from your "player" xp but from the skill point xp that tracks when you level up a skill by 1? Like once your skill is high, you have to use the skill a bunch to level it up, but you could still be gaining focus points meanwhile.

Maybe another thing that could be helpful is making focus points also provide a little boost to your skills? Like maybe just bump your skill up by 5 or 10 in addition to the cap increase. That could help get you off the ground for skills like trade and tactics that are difficult / costly to level from low numbers.

 

[Duskmare]

I feel like lots of the skills right now are exceptionally hard to level up and only level up through really stupid ways. The worst one, by far, is Medic. You literally have to gather an army and then go and get them killed to level it up. Even then, you still barely get any XP for sacrificing an army of 100 units. Enough for about 4 levels when at level 20.

Honestly, I want to see some non-conservative buffs to a lot of the skills in regard to levelling.

Give Medic XP a 4x multiplier.
Triple XP for weapon skills.
4x again for roguery, and having it gain XP from having bandit units in your party.
Fecking 10x or 20x multiplier for charm and remove the fake barter exploit.
2x for leadership, and instead of having it increase with "high morale" instead have it increase with a high morale bonus like +10 (food and recent combined but excluding Leadership bonus and base).
3x for horse riding and athletics, and balance it so that non-archer horsemen gain as much XP as archer horsemen.

I forget what other skills there are but I'm sure you get the idea.

In addition, I think double the amount of focus points each level would feel a lot better and maybe double the attribute points too.
I would also like to see whatever nerfs they put on XP gain in the arena removed.

I get that a lot of people will want a bit of a "marathon" mode and will want learning skills to take ages. So I would suggest giving the player a slider in the Campaign Settings menu that allows them to scale XP gain between 25% and 200%. Just a flat multiplier to all XP.

 

[CountDestroyer]

I feel like lots of the skills right now are exceptionally hard to level up and only level up through really stupid ways. The worst one, by far, is Medic. You literally have to gather an army and then go and get them killed to level it up. Even then, you still barely get any XP for sacrificing an army of 100 units. Enough for about 4 levels when at level 20.

As far as the levelling method for Medic goes it does make some sense as medics did (and still do) learn on cadavers. I do however agree that XP gained is far too low. Maybe instead of increasing it have the skill gain XP from seeing enemies die as well? A dead body is a dead body after all.
Another issue with that skill in particular is that it provides jack sh1t in terms of benefits. The percentage chance to turn a dead soldier into a wounded one is statistically insignificant even at extreme skill levels.

 

[Duskmare]

As far as the levelling method for Medic goes it does make some sense as medics did (and still do) learn on cadavers. I do however agree that XP gained is far too low. Maybe instead of increasing it have the skill gain XP from seeing enemies die as well? A dead body is a dead body after all.
Another issue with that skill in particular is that it provides jack sh1t in terms of benefits. The percentage chance to turn a dead soldier into a wounded one is statistically insignificant even at extreme skill levels.

I guess I'm an optimist for assuming it was only the wounded that you were getting points for, haha. Bodies to examine does make sense though I guess. Honestly, I just feel it should have a much bigger gain from (all sources but specifically) actually healing units or heroes. If you come out of a battle with 80 wounded then I would expect medic to go up 10 levels at about level 20, cause that's a lot of injured to heal.
And yeah, the increase is pretty poor, especially at lower levels. I think that goes for the weapon skills too. I often see "damage from perks: 1" and it's just bad.

 

[vota dc]

Triple XP for weapon skills means you can get 30 for a single arrow headshot early game if you begin with 0. Even with 0 focus points is leveling up decently when the skill is very low.
I think they should reduce the penalty for character level and reduce the xp required for higher level skills. But then there is the problem with lords that will reach 500 skills when you will reach 200.
For skills like medicine and engineering X2 is enough at lowest level, then they should reduce xp for higher levels too while steward at lowest level is leveling up very fast.

 

[Lord Irontoe]

But then there is the problem with lords that will reach 500 skills when you will reach 200.

I'd love that, actually. Lords should be fearsome.

 

[Bannerman Man]

Another thing to point out that I don't see mentioned yet is that tying clan roles to experience gain unfortunately creates an incentive to shuffle around roles so you can micromanage skill gain for the party/clan. Especially because all skill points count the same toward leveling up and clan roles provide experience for those rarely used low level skills.

 

[Kakuna Rattata]

Another thing to point out that I don't see mentioned yet is that tying clan roles to experience gain unfortunately creates an incentive to shuffle around roles so you can micromanage skill gain for the party/clan. Especially because all skill points count the same toward leveling up and clan roles provide experience for those rarely used low level skills.

That's one of the most grating things I've encountered with the roles system. Furthermore, the fact that many perks don't apply unless you have a certain role assigned means that only 4 companions can ever, ever, benefit from these, and only some of them, and only after extreme leveling. It would be different if you had more control over what sort of perks you choose between. Right now it just feels bad skipping past those governor only perks as the character etc.

 

[Duskmare]

That's one of the most grating things I've encountered with the roles system. Furthermore, the fact that many perks don't apply unless you have a certain role assigned means that only 4 companions can ever, ever, benefit from these, and only some of them, and only after extreme leveling. It would be different if you had more control over what sort of perks you choose between. Right now it just feels bad skipping past those governor only perks as the character etc.

I thought if you had none assigned it just used your own character's stats. Like, I've not got a surgeon assigned but I can still see a surgeon bonus in the health recovery popup.

Triple XP for weapon skills means you can get 30 for a single arrow headshot early game if you begin with 0. Even with 0 focus points is leveling up decently when the skill is very low.
I think they should reduce the penalty for character level and reduce the xp required for higher level skills. But then there is the problem with lords that will reach 500 skills when you will reach 200.
For skills like medicine and engineering X2 is enough at lowest level, then they should reduce xp for higher levels too while steward at lowest level is leveling up very fast.

Are we playing the same game? Have you got an XP mod installed that you've forgotten about? Almost everything you've said is wrong, according to my own experience.
I've got 1 focus point in bows and have been using them fairly often over my 2 day play through but am only level 40. There's no way that triple XP would magically jump you to level 30 with no focus points, headshot or not.

Lords levelling? What the heck kind of system do they use? Because they certainly can't be levelling if they use the same system as our companions. Otherwise they'd gain a stat every 300 years. Do they perhaps already have a 10x XP multiplier or something? To be honest, even that would be negligible for companions in just about every skill other than stewardship.

The whole "reduce XP at higher levels" is a terrible idea. The whole system is conflicted with that because you gain overall levels by levelling individual skills. So it looks like being a jack of all trades will get you the most levels, which means higher levels because of the focus point caps. However, with an XP reduction at higher levels the devs are kneecapping their own levelling system. There's already increased XP requirements as you get into the 'higher' levels (I say 'higher' because it's only like level 50-100 that most skills settle at, out of more than 300).

And no, X2 for medicine and engineering is not nearly enough. Do remember that double XP doesn't mean double the level rate since there are diminishing returns within each skill anyway. So that might take 50 levels earned normally and turn them into about 70 levels. Medic is also self-defeating because if you play well then you don't level up medicine, since there are less units to heal. You also get very few chances to level up engineering since you have to siege castles to do that and you're often going to be interrupted by a huge enemy army that comes to defend it. Either way, it levels up super slowly. I've got barely 30 after taking 3 towns and 2 castles. At that rate I'll conquer the map with less than 50 engineering...

 

[Apocal]

I thought if you had none assigned it just used your own character's stats. Like, I've not got a surgeon assigned but I can still see a surgeon bonus in the health recovery popup.

That's right. If you have no one assigned, it just uses the player character's stats. I still get +40 party size from my stewardship even without a quartermaster assigned.

 

[vota dc]

I thought if you had none assigned it just used your own character's stats. Like, I've not got a surgeon assigned but I can still see a surgeon bonus in the health recovery popup.


Are we playing the same game? Have you got an XP mod installed that you've forgotten about? Almost everything you've said is wrong, according to my own experience.
I've got 1 focus point in bows and have been using them fairly often over my 2 day play through but am only level 40. There's no way that triple XP would magically jump you to level 30 with no focus points, headshot or not.

Lords levelling? What the heck kind of system do they use? Because they certainly can't be levelling if they use the same system as our companions. Otherwise they'd gain a stat every 300 years. Do they perhaps already have a 10x XP multiplier or something? To be honest, even that would be negligible for companions in just about every skill other than stewardship.

The whole "reduce XP at higher levels" is a terrible idea. The whole system is conflicted with that because you gain overall levels by levelling individual skills. So it looks like being a jack of all trades will get you the most levels, which means higher levels because of the focus point caps. However, with an XP reduction at higher levels the devs are kneecapping their own levelling system. There's already increased XP requirements as you get into the 'higher' levels (I say 'higher' because it's only like level 50-100 that most skills settle at, out of more than 300).

And no, X2 for medicine and engineering is not nearly enough. Do remember that double XP doesn't mean double the level rate since there are diminishing returns within each skill anyway. So that might take 50 levels earned normally and turn them into about 70 levels. Medic is also self-defeating because if you play well then you don't level up medicine, since there are less units to heal. You also get very few chances to level up engineering since you have to siege castles to do that and you're often going to be interrupted by a huge enemy army that comes to defend it. Either way, it levels up super slowly. I've got barely 30 after taking 3 towns and 2 castles. At that rate I'll conquer the map with less than 50 engineering...

I gave Vidar Coalbiter (focus mainly on melee combat) a crossbow he has 1 focus points but zero skills and he gained 10 with the first attack, with x3 multiplier he would gained 30. After 10 he gained 2 point each shot until 20. From 20 to 25 he requires two shots for 1 point. From 25 and 30 Is already super slow.

Other heroes leveled up because they had high intelligence and zero stewardship so I tasked them quartermaster. Doing the same with medicine Is more risky, with scouting seems bugged because a blind scout doesn't scout while a scout with decent points increase faster.

They could use some sergeant system to me companions learn tactics while in your same party.

 

[Stuntman Bob]

Yeah and then realize that with fast aging and character death you will have to do it all over again to continue your game.

 

[Duskmare]

Yeah and then realize that with fast aging and character death you will have to do it all over again to continue your game.

Yeah, didn't touch that tick box. Figured that'd be about as fun as Ironman mode on a game like Xcom. It's all great and you feel the rush of the risk... until your units get killed by a lucky crit from across the map and then it's just rage and pain, haha.

But yeah, a game with slow progression and mandatory resets just sounds awful. Slow, steady progression over a long time is great. That's what Warband had. Fast progression with resets is also pretty good. That's basically your average roguelike. Fast progression and no reset gets boring fast because you end up overpowered, while slow progression with resets gets boring fast because of a feeling of futility.

So the devs really should be aiming for slow BUT STEADY progression over a long time. ("but steady" is in capitols there because they've got the 'slow' part they just need to dial it back to the point where players feel like they're progressing.)
As for the "long time" part, fixing the faction expansion so that they never fully take each other over would help a lot. Otherwise perhaps a character export, or even a clan export, much like the system in Warband.

 

[Stuntman Bob]

Yeah, didn't touch that tick box. Figured that'd be about as fun as Ironman mode on a game like Xcom. It's all great and you feel the rush of the risk... until your units get killed by a lucky crit from across the map and then it's just rage and pain, haha.

But yeah, a game with slow progression and mandatory resets just sounds awful. Slow, steady progression over a long time is great. That's what Warband had. Fast progression with resets is also pretty good. That's basically your average roguelike. Fast progression and no reset gets boring fast because you end up overpowered, while slow progression with resets gets boring fast because of a feeling of futility.

So the devs really should be aiming for slow BUT STEADY progression over a long time. ("but steady" is in capitols there because they've got the 'slow' part they just need to dial it back to the point where players feel like they're progressing.)
As for the "long time" part, fixing the faction expansion so that they never fully take each other over would help a lot. Otherwise perhaps a character export, or even a clan export, much like the system in Warband.

Yeah I was hoping this would play more like other M&B games in slow steady progression. There is always MP if I want quick defeats lol

 

[Gahnos]

I think the main problem is to tie up the general progression of your character to leveling a specific skill. And the fact that entire gameplay mechanics are locked behind level barrier that are sometimes just stupid (aka 125 trade that take at least 10 hours to complete)
You want to be better in convincing people cause you want you NEED to do extremely rare interaction and that require a **** tons of them. So since natural interaction would give you litteraly zero advance in that domain you start gaming the system and just come to a noble and give him money for approval and charm experience.
If instead the system of doing thing would provide general experience that you choose to invest in what you like it would reduce the NEED to game the system. You would do what's fun for you and that would make you progress . The idea of getting better at something by doing it is intersting on paper in reality it sucks and can only be a secondary system.

One thing that people proposing the increase in XP don't understand is the main problem here is the fact that experience required IS EXPONENTIAL but the way to gain those are not . level 100 in something is around 6% of the experience you can gain in a skill. Level 100 is something that will be unlock if you don't game the system in 80/90 hours of gameplay while even when rushing you need at least 6/7 hours.

 

[33hamsters]

Thank you everyone for making these fine points. I made an account to complain about this issue. With so much grinding, and such gamey grinding, I haven't had a chance to enjoy the game in my 50+ hours. It's just work.

 

[Kakuna Rattata]

I thought if you had none assigned it just used your own character's stats. Like, I've not got a surgeon assigned but I can still see a surgeon bonus in the health recovery popup.

That proves my point further. That makes your companion skills useless until you do assign them a role, which means you won't get xp for it. It also means you need to be a jack of all trades, master of all, which takes a long time. You also didn't address my point about "Governor" perks. I'm pretty sure those just don't work unless the character is assigned "Governor," which you cannot be as a player.

I am basically saying I wish things would go back to like in Warband where you had some "Party" skills that only the leader could use, but most every other skill just used the highest level character's stats. That was simple, but effective. I want to hire companions to be specialists so I don't have to, and yet not be punished for doing so by losing xp.

 

[Because]

I am basically saying I wish things would go back to like in Warband where you had some "Party" skills that only the leader could use, but most every other skill just used the highest level character's stats. That was simple, but effective. I want to hire companions to be specialists so I don't have to, and yet not be punished for doing so by losing xp.

2nd that it was a really nice simple system Attributes were the key things and the party system meant companions were vital to support you. I also liked that weapon skills and the static passive bonuses still could grow organically though. I think the idea of a hard cap on skills is really bad, make it a crawl by all means stick the rate to something low like .25 or less but flat out stopping any progress due to finite resource of focus and attribute points is annoying.