A correction about the Sturgian army

SturgiaStrong · Sep 18, 2019

hruza said:
Yes they were. "Ruskiye" in the Primary Chronicle.

Sure. So you can ofc show me where that ruskiye tribe lived then? :roll:

hruza said:
Slavs always lived neighboring Iranian and Turkic people. Khazars, Sarmathians, Scithians, Allans and others.

Yeah but we were talking about influence in early Rus state

hruza said:
Drevlyans or Polyans were Slavic tribes

And they were assimilated in new unique culture under Rus rule and influence

hruza said:
Of course he did. And his ethnic origin have no influence over it. Kagan is a political title, it have no ethnicity. It's name is however Turkic and Russian princes adopted it from Khazars.

He already had word konung, from which derived title knyaz later on. So there is no need in usage of word kagan.

hruza said:
Yes, they can migrate using ships. Because there was no land connection between Russia and Sweden back then. Each of which could take 30 men on average.

Mhm. And that was already done by Angles in British Isles as i've stated before

hruza said:
Rus did not start to colonize anything. Scandinavians did.

What do you mean by that? :lol:

Rus are originally from Scandinavia. Place called Roslagen

hruza said:
And the oldest Scandinavian archaeological finds in Russia date to around 750 AD. They also show no presence of massive migration. Most of them were trading posts.

Yeah more than century prior to Rurik's arrival. They founded and settled town of Ladoga, which was made first capital of Rus state by Rurik later on.

hruza said:
Nope, it's not. From Devblog:
"The Sturgians are based on the federation of city-states known as Kievan Rus, located in today's Russia, Belarus and Ukraine."
It's based on the Russian state at it's largest extend.

Reading devblog, I made a conclusion that Sturgia is based on pre christian Rus state of 9 - 10 centuries, in which finno ugorian tribes were still playing important role. If you were imaging some later period and now are upset, so that's your problem

hruza said:
English is modern word derived from word "Angle". Anglo-Saxons could not assimilate in to Angles, they already were Angles. Hence Anglo-Saxons.

So what? 2 different cultures. Anglo-Saxons were assimilated in Englishmen same way slavic tribes were assimilated in new unique culture under Rus rule.

@Jurgen
Can't imagine what you didn't understand. Retinue of varangian warlords should be varangian based. Simple as that.
And Helgi is obviously Norse name that was localised in Oleg. Not other way around

Jurgen · Sep 18, 2019

SturgiaStrong said:
@Jurgen
Can't imagine what you didn't understand. Retinue of varangian warlords should be varangian based. Simple as that.
And Helgi is obviously Norse name that was localised in Oleg. Not other way around

The retinue cannot be exclusively varangian. Secondly, there was the concept of "Druzhina" where many strong warriors, including Varangians, performed. In the game, the Varangians made both a separate class of troops and a retinue of Slavs. In principle, in order not to offend people of different nations and in general to balance the class regime of the fraction.

Do not invent fairy tales. My name is Yuri. Yuriy, Gurge, Jorge Jurgen, George, Yrjö, Jerzy, Jurius. This name is Greek, right? But in many languages it sounds about the same. From this one can only understand that most likely either Oleg was Orthodox before Olga, or he changed his faith or something like that. No matter how you try to change the name, the name does not change, unless it is taken from some kind of culture.

If he was Helgi, he would be called Helgi or Eolgi or something else, but not Oleg. These are too Slavic names.

This is already a theory.,
Scientists themselves do not know where his name came from, they are only based on the annals that were written in the Soviet Union, they try to put forward many theories that his name was Helgi, or Olen, or somehow, so that it can be proved that in the mural he really was a Norwegian. There is nothing exact here, just speculation about where, how, and why, and conclusions, why suddenly his name is Oleg and history writes him Varangian. This is strange and incomprehensible. People, starting from their own stupidity, write history for themselves, inventing crazy theories.

And I’ll tell you a secret. There was nothing for sure in the Soviet Union. All information was fabricated and many stories rewritten. So what was really there and whether there was Rurik at all, this is a fairy tale for children about the strong race from which we allegedly came from and everything in that vein. I think it’s worth not even bothering to ask such stupid questions, it’s just nonsense that they write in history books, which is too far from the truth. I have several books of history from different countries and eras on the shelves. They are all different and all authors write different things.

Terco_Viejo · Sep 18, 2019

This is the best historical approach to the archetype. The discussion is over :lol:

hruza · Sep 18, 2019

SturgiaStrong said:
Sure. So you can ofc show me where that ruskiye tribe lived then?

Grab a Primary Chronicle and you'll find out.

SturgiaStrong said:
Yeah but we were talking about influence in early Rus state

That's influence in early Russian state.

SturgiaStrong said:
And they were assimilated in new unique culture under Rus rule and influence

Rather other way around. Rus have assimilated in to Slavic culture and influence. Which pretty much shows what culture and influence was dominant.

SturgiaStrong said:
He already had word konung, from which derived title knyaz later on. So there is no need in usage of word kagan.

Knyaz is derived from proto-Slavic кънѧѕь and was in use among Slavic people long before any of them saw Scandinavian.

SturgiaStrong said:
Mhm. And that was already done by Angles in British Isles as i've stated before

And I already told you that Baltic sea is not English Channel, so no.

SturgiaStrong said:
What do you mean by that? Rus are originally from Scandinavia. Place called Roslagen

Except first Scandinavians who arrived to Russia were not Rus. In fact the only Rus that have arrived to Russia were those semi-legendary Rus that Primary Chronicle mention. And etymology of the word shows that Rus might not even exist as it is most likely just Slavic word for Scandinavians. Any Scandinavians. There certainly is no record of any Rus people in Scandinavia.

SturgiaStrong said:
Reading devblog, I made a conclusion that Sturgia is based on pre christian Rus state of 9 - 10 centuries, in which finno ugorian tribes were still playing important role. If you were imaging some later period and now are upset, so that's your problem

I don't care what conclusion you personally made reading dev blog. I only care about what devblog reads. And it reads "Kievan Rus", that is Russian polity based on Kiev.

SturgiaStrong said:
So what? 2 different cultures. Anglo-Saxons were assimilated in Englishmen same way slavic tribes were assimilated in new unique culture under Rus rule.

As I said, those were Rus which were assimilated in to old and non unique Slavic culture and Anglo-Saxons could not have assimilated in to Englishmen because Englishmen is modern word derived from ...Angle. You can't assimilate in to your own culture.

SturgiaStrong said:
Can't imagine what you didn't understand. Retinue of varangian warlords should be varangian based. Simple as that.

Retinue of Varangian warlords was based on personal loyalty and not on ethnicity.

JuanNieve · Sep 18, 2019

Terco_Viejo said:
This is the best historical approach to the archetype. The discussion is over

Druzhina helmet looks very cool, although I would combine it with the lancer's armor

to obtain something like this:

Terco_Viejo · Sep 18, 2019

JuanNieve said:
Terco_Viejo said:

This is the best historical approach to the archetype. The discussion is over

Click to expand...

Druzhina helmet looks very cool, although I would combine it with the lancer's armor

to obtain something like this:

I just gave that feedback in the Beta section. An update with the lamellar armor was promised; however we are still waiting for it.

Terco_Viejo said:
That actual piece of metal carried on its shoulders is quite odd as well as ugly...

From my humble opinion, I have to tell you that from my point of view this Druzhina troop lacks that " principesque " and slavic nature in equal parts. If you have any metal lamellar armor do the test to see how it looks.

KhergitLancer80 · Sep 18, 2019

Terco_Viejo said:
This is the best historical approach to the archetype. The discussion is over

Ahhhahaa !!! I am dying Terco stop !! :lol:

Today I laughed well to Tercos photoshops !

Gurkhal · Sep 18, 2019

Igor of the Skolderbrotva said:
Hello. One thing I like a lot about Mount and Blade is the concern to make the game as real as possible, "historical".
Therefore, I want to contribute with one information to the game developers:

In Sturgian troop tree the Ulfhednar are inferior to the Berserker... But, this is not right.

They are known as Odin's special warriors. An elite viking unit, well beyond Berserker!

Thanks.

Forgive me my potential ignorance for while I am from and live in Scandinavia, the Vikings are not my primary historical interest in pre-gunpowder periods.

But I wonder if we get the "Wolf Warriors" of Odinn will we also get the Vanir-aligned bear and boar warriors as well? That could be something for a DLC actually. That with Sturgia you can form relations with three different warrior lodges; Wolf (speed and strength), Bear (strength and toughness) and Boar (a devastating charge) and gain their help and later alliegence for doing quests and generally being nice to them, while perhaps also living up to their ideals for a warrior?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker

I know they may not be entirely historical, but there seems to be some kind of basis for it, and it could add something interest with both more troop choices for Sturiga and potential for more internal intrigue and stuff in that faction.

Igor of the Skolderbrotva · Sep 19, 2019

petmonster_tw said:
Thanks for the feedback. Probably will fix it. Don't want to offend our Viking players.

I am glad to have contributed to the game and more pleased by the developers to give us this attention.
All we want is to make a great game! Thank you very much.

Bronspl%C3%A5t_pressbleck_%C3%96land_vendeltid.jpg

JuanNieve · Sep 19, 2019

Terco_Viejo said:
JuanNieve said:

Terco_Viejo said:

This is the best historical approach to the archetype. The discussion is over

Click to expand...

Druzhina helmet looks very cool, although I would combine it with the lancer's armor

to obtain something like this:

Click to expand...

I just gave that feedback in the Beta section. An update with the lamellar armor was promised; however we are still waiting for it.

Terco_Viejo said:

That actual piece of metal carried on its shoulders is quite odd as well as ugly...

From my humble opinion, I have to tell you that from my point of view this Druzhina troop lacks that " principesque " and slavic nature in equal parts. If you have any metal lamellar armor do the test to see how it looks.

Click to expand...

Well that looks very cool

. Do you think you can add shoulder plates? :fruity:

FBohler · Sep 19, 2019

I actually like how the original Druzhina looks.

SturgiaStrong · Sep 19, 2019

@Terco @JuanNieve Actually the helmet of druzhina is what makes me cringe so hard. It feels anachronistic and strange. Helmet has clear byzantine influence in it. If druzhina class had some varangian inspired helmet or nasal helmet and some hauberk (kolchuga in russian) as armor, it will be much better. Because current version of druzhina looks more like some cataphract hybrid.

@Jurgen

So yeah, retinue basically means Druzhina and should be Varangian based in that time period, opposed to common levy, which should be more diversed.

My name is Yuri. Yuriy, Gurge, Jorge Jurgen, George, Yrjö, Jerzy, Jurius. This name is Greek, right? But in many languages it sounds about the same

As for me Yuri and George has signifficant difference in sounding, just as Helgi and Oleg. So your example only shows that greek name was localised in different languages, same way as Helgi was localised in Oleg.

Oleg was Orthodox before Olga, or he changed his faith or something like that.

And you accused me of telling fairy tales? And in your turn, you are saying that Helgi was christian before Helga. :lol:

Helgi was common Norse name, meant dedicated to gods. Btw iirc there were no Orthodoxy back then, more than century prior to schism.

If he was Helgi, he would be called Helgi

You are not called George, right? Btw he was called Helgi by other ethnicities.

This is already a theory

I honestly laugh at such theories. It obviously seems like small man complex to me. People will say any nonsense (like figure of Thor, found in Chernigov, is Budda) just not to admit the truth.

There was nothing for sure in the Soviet Union. All information was fabricated and many stories rewritten

Yeah but the fact, that Rus state was found by Norsemen and so on, is known centuries prior to USSR. And obviously USSR will never support that some germanic people found state here

@ hruza

Kind of tired of explaining simple things to you. So first of all you already was wrong about berserkers calling them sociopaths and outlaws on 2nd page. So my advice to you you need educate yourself a bit more than talk.

Knyaz is derived from proto-Slavic кънѧѕь and was in use among Slavic people long before any of them saw Scandinavian.

Mhm sure

And I already told you that Baltic sea is not English Channel

Yeah people could navigate through Atlantic Ocean but no Baltic Sea

.

Except first Scandinavians who arrived to Russia were not Rus

First of all no proofs of that

Rus might not even exist as it is most likely just Slavic word for Scandinavians. Any Scandinavians.

Bull****. In Primary Chronicle litteraly said that it was tribe's name not just general name of Scandinavians.

And it reads "Kievan Rus", that is Russian polity based on Kiev.

That because of Kievan Rus is modern term which was invented in 19 century. So I was right with my conclusion and you was wrong and now upset for no reason

Retinue of Varangian warlords was based on personal loyalty and not on ethnicity

You can't expect loyalty from people conquered not so long ago and who rebel every time they have a chance

As I said, those were Rus which were assimilated in to old and non unique Slavic culture and Anglo-Saxons could not have assimilated in to Englishmen because Englishmen is modern word derived from ...Angle. You can't assimilate in to your own culture.

If you can't understand difference between Anglo-Saxon and English culture - you wouldn't understand how Slavs assimilated to new culture. So you need better educate yourself on this subject first then we can talk
P.S. There were no russians in that time :roll:

Jurgen · Sep 19, 2019

You come up with something yourself again. In fact, these stories have already been accepted and are written in history books around the world.

But people do not understand that there are few facts. There are only theories. It is one thing to judge the Kievan Rus of the later version, not the earlier one. Early is just a fairy tale for children. The later version more clearly describes the figures of that time.

However, Oleg’s name is Oleg, not Helgi

Take even Princess Olga. She also has a supposedly Norwegian name, although from many theories, she is not of the Norwegian kind at all

In general, history such a thing, described by the same eyewitnesses to the Romans, distorts everything. For them, all barbarians are the same.

The second one. In general, that segment of history is very distorted by the fact that historians of different nations criticize this or that part. Russian historians have been criticized more than once for confusing words, and instead simply wrote Novgorod, although Novgorod was not even close there. There is no truth left there, all 30 times corresponded due to ethnic hatred, to whom Russia belongs. And Western historians just like youtube lovers write their funny stories. There is not history, but nonsense. Like in films about the Russian mafia.

You need to understand 2 facts. The developers wanted to unite the Vaegirs and the Nords. For an analog, they took the theory of the creation of Kievan Rus. Nords came and Rus appeared. In order not to offend people. They added the Druzhina and added the Varangian heavy infantry. I think it's cool. Personally, I would like to see a couple more flags of the Slavic type, and not the Scandinavian one, and I would be happy, but overall I am happy with everything. Here is its own story, a game, and you should not connect it with the history of our world, which is still not true, but falsified. Ever since the Cold War, that the Germans, that one and the other plundered sources of history, took them either to a personal collection, or drove them somewhere to a neighboring country. As Hitler said, the more beautiful you lie, the more people will believe you.

The question remains different. If, as one of the bloggers said, it is possible that the Nords will add their own island as a mini-fraction, then sturgia against their background will look silly. Both northern peoples with the same flags.

hruza · Sep 19, 2019

SturgiaStrong said:
Kind of tired of explaining simple things to you. So first of all you already was wrong about berserkers calling them sociopaths and outlaws on 2nd page. So my advice to you you need educate yourself a bit more than talk.

You kind of did not read single Scandinavian saga then. So my advice is to read some and only then to try to talk about what berserkers were to people who did.

SturgiaStrong said:
Mhm sure

Yes, sure:

"Etymology
From Proto-Slavic *kъnędzь"

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/князь

SturgiaStrong said:
Yeah people could navigate through Atlantic Ocean but no Baltic Sea .

And how many Norsemen lived across Atlantic ocean in the Early Middle Ages? Clearly Atlantic is not English Channel either.

SturgiaStrong said:
Bull****.

Keep your offensive language for your friends.

SturgiaStrong said:
In Primary Chronicle litteraly said that it was tribe's name not just general name of Scandinavians.

Primary Chronicle also says that Anglo-Saxons were Scandinavians. There is no trace of any Rus tribe in Scandinavia. Word is likely Slavic derivative of Scandinavian word for rowers or from Finnish name of Swedes -Ruotsi, which itself is derived from Scandinavian word for rowers.

SturgiaStrong said:
That because of Kievan Rus is modern term which was invented in 19 century. So I was right with my conclusion and you was wrong and now upset for no reason

I don't care when it was invented in this context, I only care what it means. And it means polity based on capital city of Kiev. Hence name.

SturgiaStrong said:
You can't expect loyalty from people conquered not so long ago and who rebel every time they have a chance

You can't except loyalty from any people, last of all your own. Hence why Pope runs Swiss guard and not Italian guard and why Byzantine emperor was running Varangian guard and not Greek guard.

SturgiaStrong said:
If you can't understand difference between Anglo-Saxon and English culture - you wouldn't understand how Slavs assimilated to new culture. So you need better educate yourself on this subject first then we can talk
P.S. There were no russians in that time

English culture is modern Anglo-Saxon culture, just like word English is modern word for Angle. It's you who don't understand what those words mean and where do they come from.

KhergitLancer80 · Sep 19, 2019

Most of these arguements and disputes today are present because of the disinformation of 19th century by imperial powers.

Some of the disinformations were madeby Russia while others were made by British and others.

From my history I know gow Iran which has 40% Azerbaijani Turkmen population started to ignore the Turkic backgrounds of empires founded on Iran.

Safavids,Afsharids(the name derives from the name of the Turkmen tribe Afshar, your old Khergitlancer lover is also one

), Qajar even Seljuks.

Also up until 19th century from East Turkestan to Anatolia every Turk was called Turk.
This micro ethnicitism was supported even partially created by superpowers.
(some of these tribal names always existed, they became promoted but some were completely made up. There is no such thing Azerbaijani)
Azeri was an ancient completely extinct forgotten Iranian tribe. I think it was Stalin himself promoted this name. Azerbaijan in iranian means "land of the azeriz" and Azerbaijani in iranian means "people who live in the land of Azeris"
But are they azeris ? NO. In Ottoman times when someone from Azerbaijan came, for example in 15th century when a monk named Otman baba came, Ottoman records described him "he was a speaker of the language of Oghuz"
Just like Turks of Turkey, they are also Oghuz Turks.
This Azeri thing was unknown to "Azerbaijani" themselves up until 19th century until Stalin taught them "who they were".

578 · Sep 19, 2019

GIVE NORDS

Igor of the Skolderbrotva · Sep 19, 2019

I know the discussion has also left the topic a bit. I just took the space to contribute to the development of the game with real information.
Correcting the inspiration for the game. For as it is, as well exemplified by @KhergitLancer99, it is like a knight upgraded to a squire.

For @hruza I just say that: Úlfheðinn is not Berserkr! Today unfortunately we have many scholars who think they know the story.
I have other facts for you: Berserkir didn't use mushrooms, blood eagle is also a christian fantasy and shield maidens are a myth.

Without Berserkir and Úlfhéðnar as shock troops, King Haraldr hárfagri would have been unsuccessful in his quest to unify Nóregr (Norway). After all, Úlfhéðnar, were not only the best warriors of the time, they were also the most feared.

The Church, however, has always had an unholy fixation on both Víkingar and wolves. So the clergy quickly claims Úlfhéðnar (and Berserkir as well) are "Heathen Devils". When Eiríkr Hákonarson (son of Hákon Sigurðarson) decides to embrace Christianity, he therefore outlaws Berserkir and of course, Úlfhéðnar as well. With the Christianization of Iceland, Grágás (medieval Icelandic law code which contained a Christian law section) also sentences Berserkir and Úlfhéðnar to outlawry.

About the term "Viking"...

Yes. Norðmenn (Norsemen) were Víkingar (Vikings), and still are!

The etymology of the word "citizen" comes from civitas in Latin, which means city. It therefore specifically relates to people in cities. Yet, would any American national born and raised in the United States of America not refer to himself or herself as a U.S. citizen just because they don't live in a city? Nope. The term has come to represent all the people sharing nationality in a specific country.

The term "Viking" is no different. It is a noun ("víkingr" in norrœnt or Old Norse) and not a verb contrary to popular belief. Now, let's make it clear that although the etymology of the term possibly refers to activities relating to "bays", performing such activities was not a requirement in order to be referred to as a Viking, like an American doesn't have to live in a city to be referred to as a citizen.

Yes, Norsemen were referred to as Vikings. Whether or not they raided. This reference also became cultural, with many Nordic countries, especially Iceland and also Norway, having men referred to themselves as Vikings. And a lot of brands, businesses, units etc... involving the term Viking.

So, Norsemen were Vikings and we still are. Again, Anglophone morons who should mind their own culture cannot change historical and cultural facts.

Moderators can close the topic. And once again I thank you for receiving my information.

KhergitLancer80 · Sep 19, 2019

What you said about Vikings make perfect sense, I dont know anything about this so it can still be wrong but compared to how it happened in other sides of the World, it makes sense.

Igor of the Skolderbrotva · Sep 19, 2019

Another aspect that can be implemented in the game, for greater immersion, are these units being part of the Skolderbrotva minor faction. Since these are based on the mercenary brotherhood Jomsvikings. Berserkir and Úlfhéðnar units are Víkingar! Sturgia is more like Kievan Rus...

This will provide a fully Viking gaming experience for those who want to play with the Nords without requiring DLC.

hruza · Sep 19, 2019

Igor of the Skolderbrotva said:
For @hruza I just say that: Úlfheðinn is not Berserkr! Today unfortunately we have many scholars who think they know the story.

I gave you clear citation from an actual Scandinavian saga. It clearly say in plain language that Úlfhéðnar were Berserkir. I have provided also original in Norse. You on the other hand so far did not provide any evidence for your claims.

Igor of the Skolderbrotva said:
I have other facts for you: Berserkir didn't use mushrooms, blood eagle is also a christian fantasy and shield maidens are a myth.

Which is completely irrelevant to the question of what Úlfhéðnar and Berserkir were. And I newer said anything about it.

Igor of the Skolderbrotva said:
So, Norsemen were Vikings and we still are. Again, Anglophone morons who should mind their own culture cannot change historical and cultural facts.

So you say.

Igor of the Skolderbrotva said:
Moderators can close the topic. And once again I thank you for receiving my information.

Your claims that you have failed to provide any historical evidence for and which contradicts actual historical sources.

A correction about the Sturgian army

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