[UNAC S6] Pre-Season Discussion (Old)

I see your point. I guess what I meant is that I want more substance than just "it's torture." What makes it torture? What makes it less fun? Of course this is your opinion, but if you explain, then perhaps we could understand where you are coming from.

Nord Champion said:

Spoiler

Kelquethas said:

Nord Champion said:

Kelquethas said:

Fastest pls, Medium is torture to play on.

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When making a suggestion as to what speed should be played, please give a viable and in-depth reason. "The other speed sucks" is not one of those reasons.

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I didn't say the other speed sucks I said it's torture to play on. lol. The reason is it's less fun

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I see your point. I guess what I meant is that I want more substance than just "it's torture." What makes it torture? What makes it less fun? Of course this is your opinion, but if you explain, then perhaps we could understand where you are coming from.

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Well the whole medium vs fastest is all opinion anyways, the reason I don't like medium is because inf fights feel too slow and less action packed. Of course for some people medium inf fights feel less "buggy" or more balanced.

Kelquethas said:

Well the whole medium vs fastest is all opinion anyways, the reason I don't like medium is because inf fights feel too slow and less action packed. Of course for some people medium inf fights feel less "buggy" or more balanced.

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Yep, and that is why it is such a hard topic to talk about. But thanks for sharing your reason for supporting fastest

The thing I hate about fastest is the glitchy inf play.
All people do is left click and look at the ground to try and spam you down. It's rather annoying when someone who is much worse than me spams me down, despite me recognizing, "hey he's gonna spam me," but my swing glitches out and I die.

Medium feels marginally slower, yet offers much less glitchy infantry fights. I don't think it's coincidence that when people realized their spam doesn't work on medium, the overall infantry skill level has risen by a lot.

The_Troubadour said:

The thing I hate about fastest is the glitchy inf play.
All people do is left click and look at the ground to try and spam you down. It's rather annoying when someone who is much worse than me spams me down, despite me recognizing, "hey he's gonna spam me," but my swing glitches out and I die.

Medium feels marginally slower, yet offers much less glitchy infantry fights. I don't think it's coincidence that when people realized their spam doesn't work on medium, the overall infantry skill level has risen by a lot.

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Yeah that's the one problem with fastest. I just wish Taleworlds actually patched and fixed their games. It's one of the reason I have trouble seeing warband being truly competitive. Just hope bannerlord is better.

Please, no more drawn-out discussion about Fastest vs Medium and gold amount. Everyone already know the differences and adv/disadv. I still prefer Fastest but one thing I like about Medium is it allows higher ping players a better chance against low ping players, thus you'll get more participation from the EU players. I think the tourney host should be the one to decide. Having said that, this is still a UNAC tourney...NA = North American. Therefore, I see no point in just copying and pasting the ruleset from WPL (considered an international tourney). I would look back at UNAC 1 and see what basics made it such a successful tourney and make refinements from there using recent developments and experiences.

One thing that I would like to see again is the duel before the tourney. Yes I'm aware that the counter-argument is it contributes nothing to the competition, but IMO it's a fun way to start a serious match and gets everyone pumped up as well as allow people a little bit of time to prepare themselves for the match. Additionally, it's an NA thing and would be nice to bring it back. Of course, the starting time and how long a duel should be must be strictly adhere to.

UNAC 1 was NOT a successful tournament because of the speed. UNAC 1 was successful because it was the pinnacle of competition in NA. As time has gone on, players have lost interest in the game and they have stopped playing, thus the level of competition has decreased.

I don't think TaleWorlds has done a good enough job of providing new updates/content to keep the interest of veteran players. But that's off topic.

The_Troubadour said:

UNAC 1 was NOT a successful tournament because of the speed. UNAC 1 was successful because it was the pinnacle of competition in NA. As time has gone on, players have lost interest in the game and they have stopped playing, thus the level of competition has decreased.

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I agree on players losing interest in the game, but I disagree about having more competition back then. If anything, competition is actually better in recent tourneys because it's more even across the board. You see a lot more upsets, unexpected wins, and much closer matches, which I think is awesome and fun to watch. You rarely see those 16-0 scores. Back in UNAC 1, the team skill-level differences were already well-defined. At the start, you already know which team will win and which will lose...which will make it into the playoffs and which won't. There were a lot of boring 16-0 matches. In recent tourneys, besides maybe wK, it's much harder to predict who will make it in the end.

IMO, it's still the most successful tourney that NA ever had because it involved pretty much every clan at the time (+1 EU team). One of the biggest reasons UNAC 1 was successful because it had every captain and co-captain of each team heavily involved in decision-makings throughout the tourney. I felt like in more recent ones, the admins were heavily relied on for most of the decision-makings.

The_Troubadour said:

I don't think TaleWorlds has done a good enough job of providing new updates/content to keep the interest of veteran players. But that's off topic.

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Probably WB was a learning experience for TW, and being such an old game, I wouldn't expect them to invest anymore time into it. Therefore, I really hope they'll apply everything they learned into BL.

Please keep first to three as well, I'm pretty sure everyone enjoys it more and it doesn't break the "comebacks" as many people feared at first.

IMO, combat speed would be nice at medium, not only because most of us are used to it at this point, but also because almost any future tournaments in warband will be played on it (you know, because they are EU). Also fastest was never too enjoyable for me, but I can see the appeal for some people I guess, I'll play either way, but like others have said, I won't be happy with it. Gold you can do whatever with, 1k was nice, but anything below 1.5k works for me, its not too horribly unbalanced.

Lastly, from what I have heard the admin team is going to be mostly DOF (although again, this is what I heard, not the truth maybe, idk) If this is the case, PLEASE rethink it. Nothing against you guys, but a more diverse admin team, coming from different active or maybe even inactive clans is better than just one ruling part. So please, if this is true, reconsider it or add new people 

Keep it up guys, I like the discussions so far.

Rake said:

Lastly, from what I have heard the admin team is going to be mostly DOF (although again, this is what I heard, not the truth maybe, idk) If this is the case, PLEASE rethink it. Nothing against you guys, but a more diverse admin team, coming from different active or maybe even inactive clans is better than just one ruling part. So please, if this is true, reconsider it or add new people 

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We are looking to get non-DoFs on the team for that reason. If it becomes an issue, I may not join the DoF team to provide an unbiased administering of the tournament. I realize that doesn't make me separate from DoF, but I would hope that the community trusts me to make decisions for the tournament, and not for DoF.

Thank you 

Courtney said:

I agree on players losing interest in the game, but I disagree about having more competition back then. If anything, competition is actually better in recent tourneys because it's more even across the board. You see a lot more upsets, unexpected wins, and much closer matches, which I think is awesome and fun to watch. You rarely see those 16-0 scores. Back in UNAC 1, the team skill-level differences were already well-defined. At the start, you already know which team will win and which will lose...which will make it into the playoffs and which won't. There were a lot of boring 16-0 matches. In recent tourneys, besides maybe wK, it's much harder to predict who will make it in the end.

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For most tournaments I have been involved with, the teams who have been favored to win pretty much have won. For example, UNAC 5 was thought to be a wide open tournament because of the lack of a "known" top tier team.  But when team Blacktide joined, it turned into a race for second place.

This last tournament is no different (WPL), there where only 3 teams that people believed actually had a chance, and when you see who is in the finals its not a surprise.

But this is a problem with the entire warband community, not just NA.  Even In eu where they have like 30 teams in one tournament, you have a pretty good idea who will come out at the top.

Warband is a very 'top heavy' game.  Where most (NOT ALL) of the top players resides on one to two teams, and only those teams have a real shot at winning.

Honestly fastest is garbo. To many things are broken on it and majority of the current ACTIVE (Keyword "Active" ) players prefer medium speed. If we want to be a legitimate competitive community than the community can't still be struggling to decide between settings. Settings have to be set in stone for all the tournaments if we want a competitive standard.

Jeffrey9792 said:

Courtney said:

I agree on players losing interest in the game, but I disagree about having more competition back then. If anything, competition is actually better in recent tourneys because it's more even across the board. You see a lot more upsets, unexpected wins, and much closer matches, which I think is awesome and fun to watch. You rarely see those 16-0 scores. Back in UNAC 1, the team skill-level differences were already well-defined. At the start, you already know which team will win and which will lose...which will make it into the playoffs and which won't. There were a lot of boring 16-0 matches. In recent tourneys, besides maybe wK, it's much harder to predict who will make it in the end.

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For most tournaments I have been involved with, the teams who have been favored to win pretty much have won. For example, UNAC 5 was thought to be a wide open tournament because of the lack of a "known" top tier team.  But when team Blacktide joined, it turned into a race for second place.

This last tournament is no different (WPL), there where only 3 teams that people believed actually had a chance, and when you see who is in the finals its not a surprise.

But this is a problem with the entire warband community, not just NA.  Even In eu where they have like 30 teams in one tournament, you have a pretty good idea who will come out at the top.

Warband is a very 'top heavy' game.  Where most (NOT ALL) of the top players resides on one to two teams, and only those teams have a real shot at winning.

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Well, I mean, of course the top teams are going to make it into the playoffs...that's why they're "top". What I meant was there were a lot of unexpected events in recent tourneys compared to old ones. A perfect example is SG in WPL. SG was almost unanimously ranked as a bottom-tier team at the beginning. Going back to the ranking thread, it seems like Clockwise was the only one who ranked them as a team that would be in single elimination. Yet, they beat out other more-favored teams like IG, DoF, and tK for a spot in SE. Also, I was expecting TMW to make it into the finals (like they usually were in the past), but they were beaten by a "brand-new" team KoB. Back in UNAC 1, it was very clear at the beginning who would make it into SE...BkS, wK, TMW, and GA/Balion. If it was top 6, then it would have clearly been BkS, wK, TMW, GA, Balion, and Wappaw. Like I said, since competition now is more even, predicting who will succeed and who will fail is more difficult.

To clarify a few things on rules, nothing is set in stone.  In fact we don't even have a "WIP" rule set as of yet.  We've got a rough idea on some things (gold will be either 1000 or 1200 etc), but so far we haven't gone through and written down what WE think should be the rule set (Which will then be offered up most humbly to the community as a sacrifice).  This is something we are working on this week.

To ask a couple other questions of everyone:
Opinions on what the overall tournament format should be?  I personally had in mind pretty much what Jeffrey talked about, however I would like to see a round robin as the "season" but I also understand this would make the tournament quite long (but this isn't perhaps a bad thing *will talk more about this in a bit*).

What about map selection?  Fixtures or a pick and ban system or something else?

How would people feel about not having "Closed/Open" maps?  I had the (most likely insane) idea of simply having an overall map pool, instead of trying to divide them between closed and open.  Now this would need to be thought about in connection with the map selecting system.

Finally, I'm planning on hosting a stream where I (and several others) would sit and talk for a while about some of the above questions.  This isn't going to be an admin or captains meeting, but more just showcase of some of the various view points in what I hope will be a fairly fair and balanced format.  Not sure when this will be, but I do want it done in the next week or two.

'Well, I mean, of course the top teams are going to make it into the playoffs...that's why they're "top".'
That doesn't invalidate his point, the scene is pretty stale when it's a consistent "race for fourth".

'What I meant was there were a lot of unexpected events in recent tourneys compared to old ones. A perfect example is SG in WPL. SG was almost unanimously ranked as a bottom-tier team at the beginning. Going back to the ranking thread, it seems like Clockwise was the only one who ranked them as a team that would be in single elimination. Yet, they beat out other more-favored teams like IG, DoF, and tK for a spot in SE. '
SG had a ridiculously easy ride in the tournament, and ended up getting absolutely rolled in the quarter-finals. Some other teams could have at least put up a round or two. But due to the style of tournament and the length change, they got in having played against only wK. Whereas DoF had to play wK, TMW, and KoB; had they instead played against only a single top tier team like SG did, they would have most likely ended 5-2. SG also lost to DoF, and never played IG.

'Also, I was expecting TMW to make it into the finals, but they were beaten by a "brand-new" team KoB. '
KoB isn't even close to a brand new team. I don't think I need to explain this point.

'Back in UNAC 1, it was very clear at the beginning who would make it into SE...BkS, wK, TMW, and GA/Balion. If it was top 6, then it would have clearly been BkS, wK, TMW, GA, Balion, and Wappaw. Like I said, since competition now is more even, predicting who will succeed and who will fail is more difficult.'
I'm sure no one predicted that GA, KoB, TMW, and wK would make the semi-finals of WPL.



4 weeks of swiss to determine seeding for the single elimination stage. Usually 8-9 weeks total.

Fixtures until semi-finals.

The open and closed distinction is important; it allows teams to show their strengths instead of getting rolled because the fixture happened to be closed/closed or open/open.

Medium, 1100 or 1000 gold.

Will you really throw out the progression that took NA nearly 6 years to do? Really? All for the sake of playing the old, and frankly irrelevant clans and players? It took the NA scene so long to do this, finally both Warband scenes share the same ruleset, for once we got rid of the incessant conflict - yet you throw it out for tradition? I don't see any logic here for it being Fastest, we have debated this speed practically thousands of times, yet you'd still revert back to this? You'd place another border into our scene, now this NA Fastest vs NA medium and EU medium, as well as you put a border between the much newer players and clans and the older ones. There are so many negatives to doing this.

Erminas said:

What I will never understand is Where were all these sudden "Medium speed lovers" hiding all these years in NA?
Where were you when DoF and GK were only ones(maybe someone else(?)) insisting to play on Medium and in return we were getting only trouble(to put it mildly) when defending that speed?

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You're really going to use this b.s excuse to run this tournament? Instead of finally acting like the larger, mature people you will revert to this as an excuse? What is more incomprehensible is why DoF, avid supporters of Medium, now host a tournament with Fastest when the community goes to Medium. You're not going to factor in that many NA players have never played on Medium before WPL (and were largely prejudiced towards it, thanks to TSC & others)? That is basically saying this tournament is more out of spite than actually supporting a (once) united Warband community. Unbelievable.

Guaccmoleboy said:

Will you really throw out the progression that took NA nearly 6 years to do? Really? All for the sake of playing the old, and frankly irrelevant clans and players? It took the NA scene so long to do this, finally both Warband scenes share the same ruleset, for once we got rid of the incessant conflict - yet you throw it out for tradition? I don't see any logic here for it being Fastest, we have debated this speed practically thousands of times, yet you'd still revert back to this? You'd place another border into our scene, now this NA Fastest vs NA medium and EU medium, as well as you put a border between the much newer players and clans and the older ones. There are so many negatives to doing this.

Erminas said:

What I will never understand is Where were all these sudden "Medium speed lovers" hiding all these years in NA?
Where were you when DoF and GK were only ones(maybe someone else(?)) insisting to play on Medium and in return we were getting only trouble(to put it mildly) when defending that speed?

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You're really going to use this b.s excuse to run this tournament? Instead of finally acting like the larger, mature people you will revert to this as an excuse? What is more incomprehensible is why DoF, avid supporters of Medium, now host a tournament with Fastest when the community goes to Medium. You're not going to factor in that many NA players have never played on Medium before WPL (and were largely prejudiced towards it, thanks to TSC & others)? That is basically saying this tournament is more out of spite than actually supporting a (once) united Warband community. Unbelievable.

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Wait...  Where has anyone said that we're doing fastest speed?

All that we ever said is we're not sure at this point.  And yeah, personally I would always be for Medium speed, but as an admin I'm going to try and put my personal biases aside to do my job as fairly as I can.

Guaccmoleboy said:

Will you really throw out the progression that took NA nearly 6 years to do? Really? All for the sake of playing the old, and frankly irrelevant clans and players? It took the NA scene so long to do this, finally both Warband scenes share the same ruleset, for once we got rid of the incessant conflict - yet you throw it out for tradition? I don't see any logic here for it being Fastest, we have debated this speed practically thousands of times, yet you'd still revert back to this? You'd place another border into our scene, now this NA Fastest vs NA medium and EU medium, as well as you put a border between the much newer players and clans and the older ones. There are so many negatives to doing this.

Erminas said:

What I will never understand is Where were all these sudden "Medium speed lovers" hiding all these years in NA?
Where were you when DoF and GK were only ones(maybe someone else(?)) insisting to play on Medium and in return we were getting only trouble(to put it mildly) when defending that speed?

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You're really going to use this b.s excuse to run this tournament? Instead of finally acting like the larger, mature people you will revert to this as an excuse? What is more incomprehensible is why DoF, avid supporters of Medium, now host a tournament with Fastest when the community goes to Medium. You're not going to factor in that many NA players have never played on Medium before WPL (and were largely prejudiced towards it, thanks to TSC & others)? That is basically saying this tournament is more out of spite than actually supporting a (once) united Warband community. Unbelievable.

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We haven't decided the speed, but it looks like the community is in favor of medium. As I said in the OP, which you may not have read, we have not made a rule set for the tournament yet.

You also drastically misinterpreted Erminas' post. He is in favor of medium.

I don't understand why people are acting like medium is new in NA. In 2010 POM + ATS where fastest and GK/GL, Balion, and PRT where medium. The community was split between server speeds and PTK was fast speed (best speed).