Martial arts in movies (European or otherwise)

Damien said:

Balian is actually a very important, very under-acknowledged historical figure. But I think it's important that Kingdom of Heaven is not a historical movie, but rather historical-fiction. It clings to history as a backdrop, and changes identies and alliances whenever it suits the story. The interplay of politics in the medieval world means that accurate representation of characters, places, and motivations would be a BEAST to put into film, and would cut your audience down to serious students of history only. That's not something Hollywood can afford to do -- so I don't fault them for changing things. As long as it's an enjoyable film -- I'll give it props for that. I give more props for really trying to capture the mood and feel of the era, which Kingdom of Heaven did well. (As a side-note, the Extended Edition is 100 times better than the theatrical release, and I suggest everyone see it, whether you liked the theatrical release or not).

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I 100% agree with you Damien. To me, it is an enjoyable film simply because of it's historical setting and because it captured the Crusades feel. No shiny new armours, everything's worn and dirty and the action's well shot as well. What is added in the director's cut if it's so many times better then?

What is added in the director's cut if it's so many times better then?

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It's hard to say, really - because there's just so much. It really feels like a different movie. First of all, Sybilla's son is in it. A fair-sized role, mind you, not just tossed into two scenes. Uhm. . a final fight scene between Balian and Guy, which in my opinion is pretty cool. Lots of extra stuff with King Baldwin. . what else, what else -- oh, lots of explanations on the relationships between the characters. For instance, the man who owns the town Balian comes from is Godfrey's brother - and we meet him and Godfrey's nephew - who is the man Godfrey kills when they try to take Balian. And that ******* priest is Balian's brother, by the way -- lots of stuff from him in the extended version as well.

A lot of the new stuff helps to explain portions of the movie. One of the main complaints I've heard is that Balian is too good of a warrior for someone just starting out. In the EE, it's explained that Balian has been in war prior to this film's timeline, and has also served as a siege engineer. The introduction of Sybilla's son explains her strange behaviour in marrying Guy, and all that follows that. . .

Seriously, man. . it's like a different movie. New dialogue, lots of new scenes, new characters, etc. Good stuff.

Unfortunately, I don't think any of the fight scenes were extended. I think the battle before Kerak is one of the best medieval fight scenes ever, and it's too bad it was (relatively) short.

Okay, thanks, I might buy it then so I can view it another 4 times.
Battle of Kerak is also one of my favorite battle scenes. Perhaps the fact that it's so short makes it that good. You really get to see the charge built up and before you know it the whole thing is over in a bang.

A shame the battle of Hattin wasn't shot tho.

I would second Damien's opinion, I bought the KoH EE and watched it with my wife, we both agreed it was a better film, in fact my wife couldn't even remember watching the first film in the cinema with me! I still don't feel the EE is perfect though. There are many things thatIMHO I feel just would not happen in a Medieval society.

Aqtai said:

I would second Damien's opinion, I bought the KoH EE and watched it with my wife, we both agreed it was a better film, in fact my wife couldn't even remember watching the first film in the cinema with me! I still don't feel the EE is perfect though. There are many things thatIMHO I feel just would not happen in a Medieval society.

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Like the main charaters having modern aditudes about religion.

That's definitely one of them.

*goes looking for the extended version*

And here I was operating under the belief the movie was total crap. Ah well.

Aryndil said:

Actually, when the few Crusaders who escaped Hattin charged the Muslim lines, they were allowed to pass, rather than having to forcibly break through. Which only further demonstrates Saladin's mercy.

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Wait.... He shows mercy by letting the enemy get away.........after going to great trouble to pin them?

No, I'm not buying that as an aspect of mercy. Practicality perhaps.

Tiberias was Raymond III of Trippoli.

You've just pointed out one of the annoying aspects of the film, that wasn't corrected in the EE. Why did Scott insist on calling Count Raymond of Tripoli "Tiberias"? The other thing is that Raymond of Tripoli AKA 'Tiberias' was present at Hattin, yet in the film they have him refusing to take part and going off to Cyprus!

Aryndil said:

Saladin respected Raymond maybe more than any other man. It was a gesture of common respect between the two that Saladin let him go. Saladin was the most chivalrous lord to ever walk the earth, is it so impossible to believe that he would let a man like Raymond pass?

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Because you just don't. You capture him and ransome him cheap.

Aryndil said:

Raz said:

Tiberias was Raymond III of Trippoli.

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...

Listen, you silly, silly, silly, silly, silly, dear Lord almighty so silly man-person: The city that the Battle of Hattin took place outside, the city that Saladin besieged at that time, was the city of Tiberias, where Raymond's wife and children were being held by the Ayyubids. The city was called Tiberias. The city.

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We're talking about a character from a movie, Aryndil. Raz is completely aware of Tiberias as a town, but there was a character in the movie Kingdom of Heaven NAMED Tiberias.

ArabArcher35 said:

We're talking about a character from a movie, Aryndil. Raz is completely aware of Tiberias as a town, but there was a character in the movie Kingdom of Heaven NAMED Tiberias.

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Some Lords were simply known by the places they ruled, just like some people today are known by their last names, especially in military settings.  His name may have been Raymond, but few people would have called him that.  No one refers to a General by their first name.

Well, to me KoH already sucks rocks because of the basic premise of the movie, the very notion that a blacksmith can outdo anyone regardless of field. He becomes a master swordsman, a master tactician, a master siege engineer... he can even find water better than the natives. On top of that he is Mr. goody two-shoes. And, of course, there is Orlando Bloom's sterling performance: he was a very convincing oak. Come to think of it, I don't think I've enjoyed any of his performances.

Kissaki said:

Well, to me KoH already sucks rocks because of the basic premise of the movie, the very notion that a blacksmith can outdo anyone regardless of field. He becomes a master swordsman, a master tactician, a master siege engineer... he can even find water better than the natives. On top of that he is Mr. goody two-shoes. And, of course, there is Orlando Bloom's sterling performance: he was a very convincing oak. Come to think of it, I don't think I've enjoyed any of his performances.

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As Damien pointed out the EE gives Balian some backstory, it is mentioned near the beginning of the film that he used to be a soldier and that he had built siege engines, I actually think Blooms acting wasn't too bad, but he did seem somewhat young for the part of a veteran soldier and master blacksmith.

All I wished in KoH was that Godfrey's arse kicking entourage never got killed off.

I was sorely dissapointed.

Aqtai said:

As Damien pointed out the EE gives Balian some backstory, it is mentioned near the beginning of the film that he used to be a soldier and that he had built siege engines, I actually think Blooms acting wasn't too bad, but he did seem somewhat young for the part of a veteran soldier and master blacksmith.

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Even if he used to be a soldier and had built siege engines, it by no means defines him as expert or even competent. To be any good at making siege engines requires a great deal of dedication as it is an art in its own right. To become any more than competent in fighting at the same time is not very believable. To also become a master blacksmith in the same lifetime is fantastical to say the least. A present day blacksmith's apprenticeship lasts four years -- with a lifetime of dedication beyond that to become a master. To master so many disciplines at once, regardless of age... well, here's a clip of Balian beating up Guy, a templar no less, from the EE version of the movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXr8u04zgxg

If that's the sort of thing I can expect from the extended ed., I have no inclination to see it.

13 Spider Bloody Chain said:

All I wished in KoH was that Godfrey's arse kicking entourage never got killed off.

I was sorely dissapointed.

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Well, he did get killed off a bit early, but my favourite was Reynald with his merry men, hands down.

Not Godfrey himself, I mean his entourage, whom I have arbitrarily labeled The German, The Dual Wielder, the Token Arse-Raping Black Dude, and the Hospitaller.

As for Guy...I thought Guy was just an honorary Templar and not an actual one (at least, in the movie), since Templars were not allowed to have wives and such.

13 Spider Bloody Chain said:

As for Guy...I thought Guy was just an honorary Templar and not an actual one (at least, in the movie), since Templars were not allowed to have wives and such.

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I found that odd as well. Templars were basically monks. (And everyone thought that warrior monks wore Orange robes and only lived on Chinese mountain tops)

Actually, to sum up a Templar, take a suicide bomber, and give him the equipment and training equivalent of a Navy Seal.