Historical discussion thread
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Captain frakas
Veteran
Hi,
Firstly, I want to thanks the dev team for this wonderful module. It's Great, really. Since the first minutes of the game (with the initial attack of my camp by bandits) i had great pleasures to play this game. Bravo.
It's seem that I'm the first to post here. I hope that my "historical" suggestion feet this topic :
Shouldn't Kievan Rus' faction be split into lots of independent Russian principalities by 1237? Currently, united like they are, they seem a little bit too powerful while, at this time, they managed to have different diplomatic objectives, where truly sovereign, waged war between them and made independent alliances with other "factions". Current depiction of Russian lands is too monolithic in my humble opinion. Still, they would share units as now. The same could be said for Poland who where fragmented into various quasi-independent duchy.
I'm aware that you know that and I imagine that there are gameplay reason to merge those various independent Rus' princedom/Polish dukedom into one cultural faction, but I'm not sure to perceive the gameplay reasons behind this. Is it a limitation of the engine/hard to implement or do you think that it could be less fun to have more factions (more lords to pledge allegiance, more lands to conquer). This fragmentation could lead to some fun quest like "restoring the old Kievan Rus' grand princedom" who could be like the claimant heir quest in native, trying to conquers or rally other Russian leaders.
In 1237, the Cumans still are at war with the Mongol horde. They are next to collapse and could be made as a minor faction like Lithuania.
Thanks a lot
CF
Firstly, I want to thanks the dev team for this wonderful module. It's Great, really. Since the first minutes of the game (with the initial attack of my camp by bandits) i had great pleasures to play this game. Bravo.
It's seem that I'm the first to post here. I hope that my "historical" suggestion feet this topic :
Shouldn't Kievan Rus' faction be split into lots of independent Russian principalities by 1237? Currently, united like they are, they seem a little bit too powerful while, at this time, they managed to have different diplomatic objectives, where truly sovereign, waged war between them and made independent alliances with other "factions". Current depiction of Russian lands is too monolithic in my humble opinion. Still, they would share units as now. The same could be said for Poland who where fragmented into various quasi-independent duchy.
I'm aware that you know that and I imagine that there are gameplay reason to merge those various independent Rus' princedom/Polish dukedom into one cultural faction, but I'm not sure to perceive the gameplay reasons behind this. Is it a limitation of the engine/hard to implement or do you think that it could be less fun to have more factions (more lords to pledge allegiance, more lands to conquer). This fragmentation could lead to some fun quest like "restoring the old Kievan Rus' grand princedom" who could be like the claimant heir quest in native, trying to conquers or rally other Russian leaders.
In 1237, the Cumans still are at war with the Mongol horde. They are next to collapse and could be made as a minor faction like Lithuania.
Thanks a lot
CF
Yes, it should. But you can imagine what small principalities can manage at war with real huge factions - nothing, they'll loose. Through several game-days Rus will be occupied by Mongol, Polish and Crusaders' factions. Only united Rus faction can resist all of them.Captain frakas said:
If only that happened in real history...
Captain frakas
Veteran
Hi Trueten,
Thanks for your answer.
Isn't it what happened ?
Most of the Rus' principalities submitted to the Mongol invaders. If I'm recalling correctly, only Novgorod escaped from the Mongol invasions. However, they don't escaped from becoming tributary to the Mongol Horde.
The only powerful huge faction that will threat Russian small principalities is the Mongol horde. And this is not necessary a bad thing considering how things turned in History and how they could take the role of the great bad guy in the storyline.
Other "huges faction" that you list should not be that potent in my opinion :
1. Like Kievan Rus', Poland should be split into independent dukedoms, it should not be a "huge faction".
2. The Crusaders should not be too powerful considering they have hostile neighbours and hostile subjects (cf. the Prussian uprisings). With the current rules, they will need to mostly recruit "mercenaries/stranger crusaders" as they will have bad relation with most of their villages/town. This hostility could be also represented if/when religion will be integrated.
---
3. The "small" Russian princedom should not be pushover. This perhaps mean that they should controls more "communities" or that their actual communities should give them enough gold and troops.
To conclude, I want to precise that I understand that it can lead to some more game balance work that are not necessary desired by the development team. I also realise that I don't have any knowledge on m&b moding so I don't have any idea if something is boring/hard/time-consumer to script.
Thanks to have take the time to read me,
Thanks again to the dev team. Even at this steps this mod is a jewel and I'm really happy with the current version.
CF
Thanks for your answer.
trueten said:
Isn't it what happened ?
Most of the Rus' principalities submitted to the Mongol invaders. If I'm recalling correctly, only Novgorod escaped from the Mongol invasions. However, they don't escaped from becoming tributary to the Mongol Horde.
The only powerful huge faction that will threat Russian small principalities is the Mongol horde. And this is not necessary a bad thing considering how things turned in History and how they could take the role of the great bad guy in the storyline.
Other "huges faction" that you list should not be that potent in my opinion :
1. Like Kievan Rus', Poland should be split into independent dukedoms, it should not be a "huge faction".
2. The Crusaders should not be too powerful considering they have hostile neighbours and hostile subjects (cf. the Prussian uprisings). With the current rules, they will need to mostly recruit "mercenaries/stranger crusaders" as they will have bad relation with most of their villages/town. This hostility could be also represented if/when religion will be integrated.
---
3. The "small" Russian princedom should not be pushover. This perhaps mean that they should controls more "communities" or that their actual communities should give them enough gold and troops.
To conclude, I want to precise that I understand that it can lead to some more game balance work that are not necessary desired by the development team. I also realise that I don't have any knowledge on m&b moding so I don't have any idea if something is boring/hard/time-consumer to script.
Thanks to have take the time to read me,
Thanks again to the dev team. Even at this steps this mod is a jewel and I'm really happy with the current version.
CF
Captain frakas, as far as I remember the discussions on the official forum, the main reasons for making Rus a single faction were a bit different. However, if I wrote them all in detail it would take up to half and hour for me. So, I'll try to be short.
1. ~30 principalities. The number of scenes, castles, towns, lords, etc. increases proportionally. The amount of work increases in an order of magnitude. The amount of work for the historical consultants increases in several orders of magnitude.
2. There's no such thing as a protectorate or an alliance in M&B, thus, Rus principalities would be much weaker than they actually were.
3. Some other reasoning that I forgot
Same thing with Poland.
1. ~30 principalities. The number of scenes, castles, towns, lords, etc. increases proportionally. The amount of work increases in an order of magnitude. The amount of work for the historical consultants increases in several orders of magnitude.
2. There's no such thing as a protectorate or an alliance in M&B, thus, Rus principalities would be much weaker than they actually were.
3. Some other reasoning that I forgot
Same thing with Poland.
CappuccinoCapo
Regular
would it be too unreasonable to add a Scandinavian faction such as Denmark or Sweden instead of just Crusader units with those countries surcoats. Also would it be acceptable to have a really strong Byzantine force within Cherson?
Price of swords. I'm no expert, but as I recall swords were only reasonable for the most elite and wealthy land owners. I realize that a significant number of cavalry units and infantry units have had their one handed weapons scaled down to maces and axes (which I couldn't agree with more), but I was wondering if the pricing of swords in the marketplace should also be scaled. Any thoughts?
Captain frakas
Veteran
JoG said:Captain frakas, as far as I remember the discussions on the official forum, the main reasons for making Rus a single faction were a bit different. However, if I wrote them all in detail it would take up to half and hour for me. So, I'll try to be short.
1. ~30 principalities. The number of scenes, castles, towns, lords, etc. increases proportionally. The amount of work increases in an order of magnitude. The amount of work for the historical consultants increases in several orders of magnitude.
2. There's no such thing as a protectorate or an alliance in M&B, thus, Rus principalities would be much weaker than they actually were.
3. Some other reasoning that I forgot
Same thing with Poland.
Hi JoG, thanks for your answers. I understand.
Still, I hope that it could be an option in a hypothetical v2.0 of the mod when other planned implemented features will be done and when W&B Warbands will be out and add to the game the diplomatic option that currently lack.
Thanks again, I only play with your mod for the moment... not only at M&B but at all. (I'm not sure if it's understandable, English is not my mother tongue).
graycloak
Sergeant
I would be interested to see the Mongols done as a triggered invasion, similar to the "dark knights" in another mod...but I admit I have no idea how much work that is.
However if the mongols were done that way, you could easily justify splitting the Rus into kiev/novgorod factions for example while also expanding the Lithuanian territory and perhaps splitting what is now Poland into say an HRE element in the far west, a Gdansk faction and a Warsaw duchy. Of course that would also mean handicapping the crusaders a bit, but it could be done by making their recruitment harder.
However if the mongols were done that way, you could easily justify splitting the Rus into kiev/novgorod factions for example while also expanding the Lithuanian territory and perhaps splitting what is now Poland into say an HRE element in the far west, a Gdansk faction and a Warsaw duchy. Of course that would also mean handicapping the crusaders a bit, but it could be done by making their recruitment harder.
graycloak
Sergeant
Hmm...is there a way to code in an "invasion" for an established faction? If there is, then that might be a way to go...have the mongols start out weak...with just a settlement and some camps for a while then have the "horde" spawn via event? Would be neat if it could be made to work, given that the game starts in what 1233? and they didn't hit Poland until 1240?
Captain frakas
Veteran
Some idea (that may be a little be OT, sorry for that) :
When they meet Steppe bandit, Horde faction character could perhaps have the option to recruit them instead of fighting them. Steppe bandit could accept or refuse the offer depending of the character renown/honour.
As steppe bandit will spawn in the east, and as the Horde will capture more and more villages/cities/castle, the horde will progressively be stronger.
AI could also use the option to camp like the player do. A camp could also be a substitute to villages/cities. When a player join a camp, he could go inside a camp scene that include women, warrior, traders, camp followers. He could buy/sell items and ask if someone could give him a task.
The mod start in 1237 IIRC.
When they meet Steppe bandit, Horde faction character could perhaps have the option to recruit them instead of fighting them. Steppe bandit could accept or refuse the offer depending of the character renown/honour.
As steppe bandit will spawn in the east, and as the Horde will capture more and more villages/cities/castle, the horde will progressively be stronger.
AI could also use the option to camp like the player do. A camp could also be a substitute to villages/cities. When a player join a camp, he could go inside a camp scene that include women, warrior, traders, camp followers. He could buy/sell items and ask if someone could give him a task.
The mod start in 1237 IIRC.
Captain frakas said:
Was toying with this idea for *every* outlaw band in the area. Giving the chance of fighting, surrendering, leaving or pulling out (when applicable), persuading not to attack, offering a small fee and persuading not to attack, and, hardest (should have a way bigger army than the outlaw party, good renown + persuasion + leadership + character origins modifier + relations the outlaws -honour ) recruit members of the outlaw party (which would have a tendancy to desert like the recruiter prisonners do once the money is pocketed ...
But yeah, this is OT, so if a mod could move that to the appropriate thread...
The-Doc
Regular
JoG said:I guess, there were no hostilities between the mod factions in 1237. So, it's better to rely on M&B randomizerThe-Doc said:
Wasn't the Mongol Invasion underway already? Perhaps it wouldn't be too bad to have all out peace at the start, give players a chance to get on their feet before war parties start running around.
Well, almost... I guess it was launched one or two months later, but yeah, probably it doesn't matter much.The-Doc said:
As for me I like when there's a lot of action from the very first day of the new game, when the player is unable to affect the state of affairs.
Michelet
Recruit
first thank you for you hard work, the mod progress is awesome
Maybe Poland could be divieded to Masovian and Silesian principality? Russia to Kievan and Novogrodian rus and crusaders to teutonic and Livonian order. This could improve historicly and rebalance the game - I think Mongols have to much camps especially on the high north.
The rus south ( the land around kiev ) should be more cities and villages, i dont buy , that there was almost unpopulated area.
practically there should be more villages in all map , its not enough places to plunder to all war parties, i wanna burn and pillage groooaghhh
And if you wanna stay with current factions, Henry II the Pious, prince of silesia should be the king of Poland , he had the bigest influence and authority in all Poland , and he could reunite polish lands in future, unfortunatly he died in Battle of Liegnitz.
There would be nice to make new quest, to cities authorities and for the villages ,( i have some ideas , i could put here) the old ones are so boring .
And i can help with the Polish voices and battle cries
Maybe Poland could be divieded to Masovian and Silesian principality? Russia to Kievan and Novogrodian rus and crusaders to teutonic and Livonian order. This could improve historicly and rebalance the game - I think Mongols have to much camps especially on the high north.
The rus south ( the land around kiev ) should be more cities and villages, i dont buy , that there was almost unpopulated area.
practically there should be more villages in all map , its not enough places to plunder to all war parties, i wanna burn and pillage groooaghhh
And if you wanna stay with current factions, Henry II the Pious, prince of silesia should be the king of Poland , he had the bigest influence and authority in all Poland , and he could reunite polish lands in future, unfortunatly he died in Battle of Liegnitz.
There would be nice to make new quest, to cities authorities and for the villages ,( i have some ideas , i could put here) the old ones are so boring .
And i can help with the Polish voices and battle cries
