@JoG- No offence taken. I'm little sharp- tongued, and like crazy humour and stuff, so that could make the wrong impression of me being unfriendly.
Sorry for that.
If You need help of semi- professionals, and sometimes proffesionals you could create account on that forum FREHA. (Forum of historical recreations- forum rekreacji historycznych). In there polish people discuss many things concerning recreationism, tournaments, creating historical arms & armours by themselves. There are even accounts of scientific employees of Cathedral of Weapon- knowing of Archaeology Institute of University of Lodz, as well as my colleague students, graduates, and lots of other well knowledgable
guys. I personally don't have an account there, but still, MAYBE someone wise enough would be able to help You, yet I'm not sure if they would like to
...lazy bastards
Be aware, that historical reconstruction is also FAAAR from real picture of XIII cent. polish battlefield, but still, It's not that bad
Some people are known to be crazy when scrutinising every detail of equipment to be 100% historically accurate.
As for names: I'm certain, that "Szlachta" is correct term for XVI century, MAYBE late XV century. You must understand, that XIII century is beggining of feudal system in Poland. Before that we had "The system of Prince's law". Only in XIII the knights were starting to develop. Before that our military system was mainly based on princes and comes castellanus's Druzhina's. It was actually different than at Rus territories, but still, it was same principal, heading back to times before Mieszko I. It would be much better if You gave the names from latin, but there are no references to game system actually. There are different names for nobles and stuff, so we should not only know the latin terms very well (I actually don't know them that well, im no historian
), and still we should adapt them creatively for use in this mod. I guess i could try doing this, but I'm busy and lazy guy, so i won't give my word, that I will
To sum up- the polish names of troops are all just made up, with no XIII century equivalents
Jog, you said, that " I wouldn't say that Rus warfare was "dishonourable" (at least I don't remember any "false retreats" or other "dirty tricks" before Mongol era). And, AFAIK, we tried to oppose the Eastern tactics using armored horse archers and lots of foot archers."
I didn't say it was dishonourable. It was not chivalrous as at the west. And yeah, entire world used "dirty tricks" sometimes
Even Emperor of Germany, Russians as well. I remember from one of the "Latopis" chronicle, when russian gorod (wooden castle) was saved from tartar siege by "pudding"
Short story- Mongols sent their emissaries to gorod to try to pertract with russians, check how much food is left in their storages. Russians of course were in the breaking point, but some crafty fellow got a crazy idea to fool Tartar emissaries. They had a well in the middle of gorod. They had thrown rest of their grain in there, and when emissaries came, they treated them with some of this water- grain "pudding"
Tartars believed, that these russians have magical well, which bears food, and retreated from the siege. (lol dumbasses pwnzor haxxorz
)
I'll risk to say, that our (Polish) army in XIII century was based mainly on cavalary (as all western christendom). XIII and XIV century- up to Agincourt are known as the golden era of chivalrous battles. Noble fighting battle had actually VERY good chance of survival. It was just much more profitable to capture a knight, and release him only, when he paid ransom (Or honourable promissed, that he'll pay!). Where I'm trying to go with this- our foot soldiers were still used on battlefields, but they were just a "meat" thrown to sometimes slow down cavalary. As for bows- yeah, we used them in XIII century, but infantry was only good in sieges. Open battlefield was owned by cavalary. (Only in XIII century riders started using lances- holding them under their arms- in game gifing couched lance dmg. Before that they used shorter, lighter spears, which were mainly used from "free hand" as later uhlans.). Comming back to polish bows- the simple bows couldn't really be too big threat for an armoured knight. It could hurt horse of course, but if you wanted to get a knight down, you should have an english Longbow, or crossbow, or eastern composite (reflex) bow. I'd give the polish infantry crossbows instead of bows
Bows were more often used on battlefields by pagans (Prussians, Lithuanians, and others), but those light bows could be a menace, when fighting guerilla style. Only Russians used great composite bows, and they actually got them as influence from Tartars ...I think.
As for lamellar over maille... Note, the cost of this armour. The price of such armour doubles. Conclusion? That wasn't standart for every druzhinnik in every principality.
Note also the shape of maille. Western knight in XIII cent. was covered over entire body. As I recall (nor russian armour specialist) Their heavy cav. was still uncovered at arms, hands, legs, most helmets were open (without faceguard). And, if i'm not wrong, the lance was nat as popular as in western realms. Result? I doubt, that russian cav could not take down western cavalary head on in most cases. I also think, that in this mod lancers, and heaviness of armour on tartars is not right too. Their strength was mobility, ranged attacks, "dirty tricks"- everything bound with discipline not known to feudal armies, or russian principalities druzhinas.
Lance to the belly- even plate armour wouldn't help in most cases, so lamellar over maille isn't decisive factor. It helped aganist bows, yes, improved survivability even on composite bow and crossbow, as well as melle weapons (apart of lance). The western full maille (guys were covered in them as in pyjamas with hood
) Covered entire body. Even hands had in XIII century attached mitten gloves, so there was not inch of body in the open. Actually- In my humble oppinion the crusaders would be heavier armoured than Russians. Maybe Poles were not, because we were not as wealthy as Teutons, but still our armour couldn't suck that bad
Pot helmet- I'm not sure for english term for this helmet. It's "hełm garnczkowy"- XIII century full helmet, worn only on head, not resting on shoulders as XIV century Great helmets did. (Just to say so).
They should be main head cover for heavy lancers of the catholic states. Also riders of Poland can use open kettle helmets, "norman" helmets, and yeah, if you really like this phrigians so much... them too. Still, i can't stress enough- those phrigians were rare helmets, in this part of Europe every use of them is depicted at some ruler's head, not common knights (as far as i know- might be wrong). And I actually am sure, that their manufacturing cost some more than norman helmet, and I'm 100000% sure, that more than kettle hat helmets! (There are written sources with prices in Teutonic order arsenals. Kettles were most common and cheapest throughout entire late medieval times).
My oppinion is, that Poles preferred Kettle hats (not only infantry!) and simple chainmaille hood. 1st half of XIII cent. could be dominated by norman and ribbed- norman helmets. There should however be lots of pot helmets as well. Phrigians should be exotic curiosities in my oppinion, not the main head cover for any nation!
Now I got'cha JoG. I'm not sure about exact place from which comes 1 helmet, but the middle one was found in Thorn (as i recall in archaeological exploration of old city's moat). It's dated on second half of XIV century, not XIII century! (Where did You find this date?) and it's not russian piece of equipment, it's teutonic Pickelhube. Yes, it's these are quite hot issue in polish science at the moment. It's type of helmet, which could be characteristic for pagan Prussians, than captured by the Order, and used later on as their characteristic headgear. (Some written sources from polish king Kazimierz Wielki processing in court with Teutonic order say of witness, who said, that Teuton's raided his village, and he knew them by seeing those "Prussian helmets") Moreover! This helmet as newest- top- notch not yet publicated findings show were actually helmets with movavle visor! (polish- przyłbica) and were one of the first actually- used probably in same moment as bascinet with dog- face visor (hundsgugel). There is a painting in church in Strzelniki in the lands, that did belong to Teutonic order. Painting is in quite bad shape, and are now being worked on, by one on my colleagues under prof. Marian Głosek. (This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strzelniki,_Warmian-Masurian_Voivodeship ,not Strzelniki at Silesia
) Sorry, but there is no photography of this painting in web. Look for publication of graduate work comming from Lodz University about these Pickelhube helmets if You're curious enough. (I think the book's not ready yet, and I'm not even sure if it will be printed after all
).
The rider on the right is from the seal of Trojden of Masovia, dated on XIV century. This helmet is not Russian, it's also pagan (most likely Lithuanian), and the rest of his equipment is characteristic for pagans as well- vide; small cavalary pavisse shield (PLEASE INCLUDE THEM IN MOD! IT WOULD BE LOVELY
) They are in pagan lands- Prussians, Lithuanians, and in Masovia allready in XIII century! Rest of the world has them, as well as big infanrty pavise shields in XIV century- it's characteristic piece of Husite warrior equipment) and lamellar armour.
As curiosity- simillar prince's outfit is also shown in Ziemowit of Mazowia's seal dated on 1343 AD, and Lithuanian prince Kiejstut (Kestut Gedyminowic) from 1379 AD.
Concluding: These were used not by "polish" knights, but Masovian knights. Masovia at that time had more in common with Russians, than with Poles. Maybe kicking You over semantics, but these were the Baltic tribes armament, kind of similar to Russian, but still quite different.
I was talking about those slavic helmets- similar to our X century "Szłom wielkopolski"- (now called "Szyszak" in polish) type helmet- this one: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Polish_helmet_from_X_century.PNG Similar slavo- iranian line of helmets were widely used in Russia, they were nicely published by Anatolij Nikolayevich Kirpicnikov. I happen to know, that the mod creators base the russian armament on his, and other russian scientists work. They however are unable to find polish scientific publications (for ex. Nadolski, Głosek, Nowakowski, Zygulski etc.) and even, when they'll find it- most of their works are only in polish, so they don't understand much of it
As for polish people- try going to library, preferably belonging to some university, which has institute of archaeology, maybe try libraries at archaeology museum- these publications are easily obtainable in there
So, as You can see- saying, that this type of "szyszak" helmets were used in XIII cent. Poland is complete nonsence!!
As for the emblems- maybe drop the XV century stuff, and try land coats of arms. These were created in XIV century, when Poland was reunited by Kazimierz Wielki.
There is also some table with the oldest polish knight coats of arms. I'll try to find it and post somewhere.
For beggining- this is site of one of the doctors in Lodz University History Institute. http://warsztathistoryka.uni.lodz.pl/miniatury_lodzkie/polskieherbyziemskiewstatutachjanaaskiegoz1506r.html
Here you have some decent heraldry pictures, for example nice view, how polish white eagle was evolving
The particular linked picture is depicting polish lands coats of arms at the beggining in XVI century.
http://warsztathistoryka.uni.lodz.pl/podstrony/galeria.html Here's link to this sites complete gallery index. It's advisable to know polish to use the site properly
http://warsztathistoryka.uni.lodz.pl/galeria_orzel/005.jpg Here's some nice depiction of 1230 AD princely seal. Early pot helmet on prince's head, an eagle already used on the shield. We however don't know the colour. There is even some written source... german as I can recall, saying, that Poles from Silesia, fighting with German emperor as auxiliary forces aganist Bohemians ? (I'm really not sure of this- i don't remember well
) used black eagle or the back of their standart was black... Something like this
Just- i beg of you! Don't make all the wappenrocks (this fabric tunic on armour) coloured in Polish modern colours. It's inadvisible due to lack of organisation as a single military force, these men armed themselves individually, they didn't have any orders on how should they be dressed. Don't make them look same. There were no uniforms, and confusion on the battlefield was common. People fought under standards, and it was main factor of identificating particular unit. (That's why at the battle of Grunwald Teutons captured polish main banner it was so disastrous. If they hid it- it would be signal for all polish forces to retreat. The battle would be lost).
Kalash- 1. Sorry to say, but you're wrong agreeing with JoG
. As you see- russian helmets later than X- XI century in Poland- complete bull****
Try wearing such helmet at some tournament in XIII century as Polish knight. The organizers won't let You in! It's completely out of discussion!! Wearing those masovian XIV century high kettle hats is not a good idea either
2. How did you come up with that exact date?
There are "Szłom wielkopolski" type helmets which are of russian origin, and as achaeological artefacts they predecess the beggining of XI century.- google it. It was prof. Nadolski's oppinion, that they were manufactured in Wielkopolska, but nowadays scientists don't believe it and see these helmets as russian imports.
3. I am from Poland. What shouts are You talking about? I might be able to help, but I must know with what exactly
Maybe go to the bar for some football match- It could give great, ferrocious battlecries there, lol
4. Kalash, some posts back You wrote, that some1 told You, that Poles wore scale armours. There's completely no evidence on that. There is no evidence of any1 using leather armor as well (I can tell you, I saw lamellar from boiled leather. It was light as a feather, and actually offered nice protection. I'd be surprpised if they wouldn't be in use in early medieval armies. However- for example in knight reconstructions, there are no
Some thought of mine, which You should understand: You're trying to reconstruct polish XIII century battle art. It's hell of a tough task, and many generations of scientists were trying, and still try to do. When i say something, that I'm sure- You can trust it, because it's outcome of really great mind's years of work. (Not mine of course xD I mean archaeologists and historians, the scientists
)
You probably don't know the methods, that are used to reconstruct the visual picture of polish forces of this period. Yet still you managed to do "something", which is admirable as it is
(sorry if that sounds arrogant- it was not my intention)
P.s.
http://www.xiazeca.pl/index.php?strona=galeria&impreza=ilza&rok=07 Some random link with pictures of some reconstructional fraternity. The guys were involved in biggest polish XIII century reconstructional tournament at Iłża castle. You could try look in those reconstructioners equipment, however note, that their coats of arms are fictional as far as i know, and that there is one knight from XIV century in this picture. (The one dressed in yellow).
Keep up the good work! Regards.