Bug reports and suggestions - read the first post
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This does not match up with my previous experience and opinion, and the general posted opinion that I remember from other competitive players: during the Warband beta the game implementation of couched lancing switched back and forth between easy and overpowered to worthlessly difficult a few times, but the system finalized before the official release (which remains unchanged in Native, and also in PW) is basically only useful for sneak attacks on careless players in a large open area; since a long run up is required, and the lance will raise if the horse is turned more than slightly, it is quite easy to time a side step - thrusting with the lance is generally a more effective attack against an aware enemy. Back in the day I used to try play as a pikeman the majority of the time, and I found it more effective and powerful than some other players gave credit for - it just requires more situational awareness and tactics than some other play styles.Av3ng3r said:
I disagree: when players need to have recently earned the money to buy a horse, lance, and training (at least 3.5k, probably more like 10k, at default prices) they might decide to go around lancing unaware loners in the back for loot, but sooner or later they will annoy enough people to be ganged up on and killed, requiring them to earn and spend another 2 - 5k again to re-buy equipment - if they can find somewhere to be a economic class without falling victim in turn to their previous victims. On the other hand, with practically infinite money from permanent banks, spending a few thousand each death can be done without thought, with no need to worry about making the current environment too hot to handle making money; and when done trolling for the day just log off to save horse and lance, ready to immediately jump back into that play style when next joining the server. There is also a snowball effect from many people joining together, all having the "mega rich" ability to ignore the economic team work parts of the game design, sustaining factions that are focused on killing lone individuals for the fun of it - and based on my opinion above, the lancer (or man at arms) class is pretty much optimal for that.Av3ng3r said:
I do not remember any reports of couched lancing being a problem in the past, before the design of PW was broken with eternal banks and equipment saving; as said, I consider balance problems reported recently as tainted.
Having said all that: just because the the game balance doesn't seem to require lances that break doesn't stop it from being an interesting concept. I have been wondering about adding a new "Thin Lance" item inside the section for scripted items that is an exact copy of the existing "Lance" item, except it always breaks after one use: scene makers could remove all buying stations for the normal lances and only include the breakable type, if desired. Always breaking after a single use would avoid annoying and unintuitive "dice roll" combat mechanics that are generally avoided in the M&B design.
If by "horsebuff" you mean the double hit points feature also applying to horse agents: that was an unintended consequence of how the code was written, which has previously been adjusted to disable it for the next PW release. Killing cavalry in one hit has always been very difficult - basically only with a well timed and placed great sword or great long axe on a lightly armed rider. By design, cavalry have a very powerful attack limited to wide open spaces, in exchange getting disadvantages when fighting in closer quarters or against larger groups.Av3ng3r said:
Vornne said:
Do you think you should nerf teamwork?
IF 3 very experienced Native or cRPG duelers join the server, it doesn't play a major role if they start to punigh the whole server with heavier Great Sword, Plate Armour and Gauntlets immediately or after and hour of grinding. Or does it?
Av3ng3r said:
Well, cavalry has almost no chance in close quarters, cavalry is a very expensive class, it's most powerful attack is already relatively easy to avoid if you have slightly better ping, and you want to nerf it, obviously without any compensation. Perfect combat design.
Actually, doing something like that would need some other changes to compensate. For example, killing more than one player with the same lance hit (and the only lance hit). Will obviously need lots of code. Or increasing the horse values: charge (heavy horses like Hunter (historically "Destrier") could charge a raw of 10 warriors standing one after another and not stop), maneuver (to make dodging cavalry harder than it is now, as hard as it is in real life)... Then you need to buff infantry in some way. And then start a huge whine race, where the the class weakest in whining is always nerfed untill it becomes stronger in whining.
I am also making a combat system attempting to be realistic now. It is much harder than it seemed to balance things. And I don't think it would be nice to force several hundred players to become your beta-testers.
Anani said:Vornne said:
Dis. Maybe name it breakable lance? and may I also suggest you make a breakable great lance since you got your hand on that(or maybe go even more hardcore and add breakable heavy lance?
I think, there must be breakable analogues of every lance, and they must be called like "Hevy_lance_breakable" in the module system for scene and submod makers, and like "Heavy Thin Lance" in the game.
Baskakov_Dima said:Anani said:Vornne said:
Dis. Maybe name it breakable lance? and may I also suggest you make a breakable great lance since you got your hand on that
I think, there must be breakable analogues of every lance, and they must be called like "Hevy_lance_breakable" in the module system for scene and submod makers, and like "Heavy Thin Lance" in the game.
But why, a lance being thin is unrelated to its breakability. The reason they break is because they are made of wood, if they were really unbreakable in any way, then it would be the rider who would flew off the horse or break his arm when the couch hit the target.
We are talking about thrusting a full branch with a sharp edge(not even with the right angle for best penetration and the horse has to be faster) into a man and expecting that branch would survive that impact and continue its way.
Ah well maybe I'm a bit off topic here, should have posted this on warband's suggestions thread :p
My point is that you should name them like ''Breakable Lance'' ingame c:
Raging Womble
Banned
Gotta say Vornne, as things stand cav wipe the inf and ranged out. They don't stand a chance. I support breakable lances as an optional feature, something that an overwhelming majority of players do on Nexus and the majority of the staff team.
I definitely think it does: I played mostly battle game mode, sometimes siege, and the money possible to "grind" was never very much of a consideration because everyone was reset after half an hour or so. Even so, if one team was stacked by better players who all dominated and accumulated more money than the losing team, the game often became less enjoyable, trying to fight against a team heavily armed and armored when using light armor. I played a little bit of cRPG when it was first released, to try it out, but soon gave up because it was dominated by players of mostly poor skill, but lots of time and patience to grind their way up over weeks or months. As I have said so many times, PW was not designed to be like that - just extending the time until "scene reset" from half an hour to somewhere between a day and a week.Baskakov_Dima said:
No, definitely not: that is a path of descent into madness. The only change would be small and totally optional, only affecting one thing at a time.Baskakov_Dima said:
Anani said:Maybe name it breakable lance? and may I also suggest you make a breakable great lance since you got your hand on that
No, I do not like having "breakable" in the name, since it implies all others are unbreakable: while that is true of the game mechanics, it does not make much sense in the simulated historic environment, and I think item names should match how the characters would refer to them in game, not bring in unnecessary "out of character" game mechanics references. I also thought of adding just one lance type for a test to see how it could work in practice, rather than duplicating many items for them to be unused if server owners or players don't actually like the change. Warband has item and scene prop limits for multiplayer, which mean that after a certain number of types added to the mod, the last ones do not show correctly on clients when spawned: this is one of the reasons I don't add loads of random "OSP" items, blocking myself into a corner when later wanting to add new and interesting features, not just eye candy.Baskakov_Dima said:
As said, I consider the current popular servers "tainted" for the purposes of game balance. Of course cavalry "wipe infantry and archers out" in their preferred role of open field domination, in the way that attack helicopters would wipe out troop formations and tanks in open battle, if all units were effectively free of cost (everyone had billions of dollars and the machines were all easy to create and maintain). A change to couched lancing would not affect the relative balance very much at all, because the horsemen could still thrust with spears or swing swords, which are often more effective methods of attack in organised battle.Raging Womble said:
Leave couching as it is (after all putting a lance 6 feet deep trough someone's chest is a damn sure method to lethally wound him).
The one thing I would maybe suggest regarding this is to do what some other mods have and remove the ability to sheath a lance or other polearm on the back. This way cavalry would after some time engage in melee with the infantry (when the horse gets stopped by a spear, usually) where right now most people have developed couch&run-strategies that they would also keep up without banks and item saving for fighting on horseback.
The one thing I would maybe suggest regarding this is to do what some other mods have and remove the ability to sheath a lance or other polearm on the back. This way cavalry would after some time engage in melee with the infantry (when the horse gets stopped by a spear, usually) where right now most people have developed couch&run-strategies that they would also keep up without banks and item saving for fighting on horseback.
The "breakable" lance would just be a single alternative item, easy to leave the current items accessible in the scene if it is not wanted. Disabling the ability to carry certain items in the standard four equipment slots could have unforeseen effects on this game type compared to other simpler "battle" modes, because items need to be transported from place to place rather than just selected with an equipment interface to use immediately. It would be difficult to discriminate between items that could be carried when not wielded and items that could not: what about long iron bars, long axes, or full buckets of water? What about when riding on a horse as opposed to walking, where lances could be attached to the saddle for transport?Knüppel said:
Sorry, I don't see any major benefit in return for the effort required: what new dynamics would it add to the game mechanics? It can take a lot of time to create appropriate item and scene prop meshes, and I am primarily a programmer, not a 3D artist. It also seems rather anachronistic for the medieval based setting: beer and wine were the main beverages, and they are already included.Anani said:
Haretik
Regular
The whole Poll system for Lords does more harm than good. It only ever makes it easy for people to steal factions (And all their castles, gold, and stocks) without fighting. What if the first person in the faction was the Lord, and the person can pass it on to someone. It should only be left to a poll if the Lord logs out without passing it on. This also makes it easy to take over empty factions.
Sorry, I don't like it. The factions and castles are for the use of the main bulk of people playing on the server at the time, not to be reserved by 'out of character' reasons or just pure luck. If 8 total idiots happened to log on early one morning after a server restart, all grabbing faction lordship, then the server environment could be ruined for everyone else. It is possible for an annoying group of people to take over your faction, from your point of view, but it is the most fun for the most people if larger groups can decide what will happen, rather than individuals.Haretik said:
On a side note, I realise that lords were not often just voted on in medieval times, but the poll system is just a player focused mechanic that is not necessarily supposed to be brought in character.
Haretik
Regular
Vornne said:
You don't like it when a few idiots get there first, so it's theirs? Weeeellll, that's how these CLANS work! They are the oldest, have recruited the most, and therefore have the advantage because they were there first. It makes starting a new clan impossible.
ON ANOTHER NOTE, TWO MORE FROM ME!!!
Personal Heraldry
You know how you select a banner when you have your profile? What if that was what determined your heraldry. That way, we can differentiate between groups in different faction, commoners don't HAVE to wear ugly brown, and roleplay people can... Roleplay. Having the "Use Faction Banner" setting will make it act like it does now.
ARMOR SLOWS YOU DOWN
I've noticed that a man in full armor can outrun a serf wearing just clothes. This should be fixed. Already know it's possible, because armor slows you if your STR isn't high enough.
Wrong: it might seem a bit like that when frustrated, but a little bit of critical thinking will disprove it: there have been very many clans to rise and fall from power in the years since first PW release, all the way from most powerful or loved to disliked or forgotten.Haretik said:
No: if you want to play independently with full recognition and power, you should probably play another mod (one of the Native modes, for example): a strong focus of this mod is the advantages and responsibilities of working in a team, and factions are the main grouping for that.Haretik said:
Armor does slow you down, just as in Native: you are probably being misled by the fully armored man being a Sergeant or Footman troop, with high Agility and Athletics, chasing down a lowly Peasant or Serf with minimal skills. Some people seem to get a mistaken impression about the impact of wearing armor on movement speed: even a full suit of medieval armor weighed less (about 25kg at most) than modern day soldiers carry into battle (about 30 - 60 kg), and it was well distributed and secured over the body (do some research if you don't believe me). So the impact of armor on movement speed in the game remains very similar to Native, with a noticeable effect between equal fighting classes, but not an overriding effect whatever the troop skills involved.Haretik said:
If you want to outrun almost anyone as a "peasant" wearing clothes, spend the time and money to train as the Traveler troop.
Each "knight" would have his own "faction" with similarly marked followers, and there would be far more people in total than different banners. Parts of the design are intended to prevent every single player from portraying themselves as a special hero (in other words, nobody being special). There are plenty of other games for that sort of thing; PW is meant to be different.Haretik said:
No; the mod was redesigned from scratch around the custom faction system, among other things, and I have no desire to try reimpliment Native functionality.Haretik said:
