Armor tiers,Damage scaling,Thrown weapons,ammo capacity and low tier crossbows

Looking at armor ratings it seems that the difference between low tier plate armor and mail is often only a few points.The standard Plate Armor has an armor rating of 55 while a coat of plates has the same body armor and a Heraldic Mail with Tabard has 54.That's only a one point difference in armor rating despite going from plate armor to mail and no difference between a coat of plates and a plate armor.

Even when goping to better plate armor the diffrence still seems awfully small a Knights of the dawn plate armor has only 56 body armor ,Mettenheim Plate has 60 and even the pinacle of Mettenheim armor the Forlorn Hope Heavy Suit of Plate is at 62.Magic armor like the Noldor anicent Plate is still only a 66 BA.Only the enhanced versions of the Mystical Rune Plate  have significantly higher armor rating than most other armors.

It often feel like there is very little impact on upgrading to a better suit of armor ,going from mail to plate certainly should be more than 1 point and in some cases the plate armor has rating 53 armor in which case it is not an upgrade at all.I think plate armor should have a significant increase in effectivniss compared to mail or simliar armor just as mail should have a significant icnrese over leather or gambeson.Not just due to the better protection of the armor itself but because it also covers more of the body.

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Comparing this to swords: A steel sword has 29c damage a Silvered Longsword 34c, a Noldor runesword  39c, a strange runesword 45c  .And this is without strenght,profiencies and powerstrike who together can more than double the damage dealt.Pierce and blunt weapon will also ignore a higher percentage of the armor rating.

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?topic=346233.0

There is no simliar mechanic for armor a 55 plate amor will always have a defense of 55.Infact it will have a defense bewtween 50% and 100% of the shown armor value meaning that it actually performs worse than it should.On average it will have only 75% of it's shown armor so a 55 armor will actually perform like 41,25 armor.

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Thrown weapons deal similarly huge damage which is usually pierce.A Javelin will deal 42p without any damage modifiers from power throw or strenght.With 3 powerthorw it will already deal 54.6p damage ,with 6 powerthrow it is 67.2p.It seems strange that a pointy stick will penetrate through plate like this despite it being thrown without the help of a tool like a bow.And this is just a low tier weapon without any magical properties(I don't think there are any).The strongest throwing weapon the great Galfak will do 60p and when thrown by their users(Kraken Riddari)deal 114p damage without the strenght bonus.


And then there is the ammo capacity it would be fine for top tier throwers to deal huge damge even if it is unrealistic but they carry massive ammounts of ammunition.Historically
users of throwing spears usually carried 3-5 spears.Yet Javelins ingame are carried in bundles of 12.


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And crossbows even low tier ones turn the average plate armor into a joke.My current char is wearing Forlon hope plate (62),lordly gauntlets (13) and a helm that gives 5 body armor.Yet brigands with their hunting crossbows will commonly deal 12-20 damage to me on a body shot.The amount of times knights die to low tier crossbows ingame is ridiculous.Compared to simliar low tier archers they far more effectiv.A wooden shield can withstand dozens of shoots but a full steel plate is turned into swiss cheese?

It took heavy arbalests to penetrate proper plate armor and even then it wasn't guranteed.Late medieval plate armor was tested against heavy crossbows and early firearms and proof armor would only get it's proof if it would withand a shot.A hunting crossbow wouldn't even dent the armor.I am under the impression that Mettenheim  makes the best human armor in the world Pendor plays in ,yet even their top tier armor is penetrated by a weapon made for hunting?A small maiden crossbow than can be used on a horse punches through enchanted Noldor plate?

Crossbows in Pendor already relaod far faster than real ones they really shouldn't invalidate heavy armor even at low tiers if feels terrible to play a two handed char.



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Even 5 points of body armor seems to be an incredible low increase when going from mail to full body plate armor and it's often less than that.Joining a Knighthood Order and getting their armor doesn't feel like much of a reward if my starting armor has only 4 less armor.It would feel much more rewarding if proper armor would have noticable differences to the armor many players start with.Especially since it doesn't have the same massive point increase that damage has. once the player levels up.

It would also buff knights and other high tie unitsr I can solo a Dawn Knight Patrol+ sergants at low levels but a Eventide Patrol is impossible due the sergants outperfoming the knights.


So hoping that this doesn't count as a short question is there any chance that armor could be made better or at least have more noticable differences in tier and quality?

I rarely leave negative comments but I could not help myself here.  I totally disagree with the overall tone of this post and in particular about the part about low tier crossbows being too good and throwing weapons being too numerous and powerful.

First off, POP is not set in our universe and does not seek to simulate medieval era weapons, armor etc.  Second, if we go down the route of saying that carrying around 12 javelins is unrealistic and therefore something should be done about it, we would have to pretty much redo the whole mod as there are much bigger issues than this based on realism arguments.  Immortal lords and companions, fearless men who 99% of the time fight to the death.  Lords which don't need time to rest and can move around the map forever etc. 

As far as hunting crossbows doing lots of damage to heavily armoured men, that is not my experience.  I currently have 81 body armor and 64 head armor.  Most hits from hunting crossbows will do 0 damage to me if I am fairly far from the shooter and am not hit in the head. 

Fun vs realism

M&B and mods were in realm of low fantasy, even historical titles not want to be realistic

F*ck realism! It's often boring and one-dimensional in computer games. If you want realism, you usually go out and live life! All aspects of the current combat system are done for the sole purpose of balance and gameplay difficulty.

Prophesy of Pendor has a decent fan community and I'm pretty certain that it's greatly due to the challenge it provides compared to native and most mods. By "challenge", I mean that mistakes have great costs and you can be one-shotted if you don't pay attention. Which adds to the tension. And PoP can still become quite easy!

Now, if plate armors would be made noticeably more durable and protective, what would you get in return? Here are the aspects I could think of for now:
- Get a top plate armor and fear of nothing! Make silly mistakes, run towards a line of archers head on, ride into battles like a madman, who cares? You'll become an even stronger one-man army with even less things to fear from. Hurray! All hail native Warband's boring battles because of you being almost invincible in plate armor!
- disgustingly strong troops like Noldors, Hero/Heroine Adventurers and your CKO units, as well as almost all KO knights and sergeants would become even stronger and more resistant to all sorts of attacks. I can only smell unbalance...
- Medium tier troops will lose a big chunk from their potential and using them against elite units would feel like fighting against a brick wall. Yaay...
- fights against elite parties (unique spawns and alike) would be even more frustrating and would greatly disrupt the flow of battles.
- Dozens of hours were put into testing troops under various conditions (against elite units, sieges, etc), and their stats and equipment were adjusted accordingly with great care. Now all effort and dedication of free time would be lost...
- people complaining about the effectiveness of crossbows and throwing weapons, thinking that they are suboptimal/too weak - because yes, there are quite a lot of them - would be even more frustrated/pissed. Way to go.

There are roughly equal amounts of complaints from surrealists and history/realism fans considering throwing weapons and crossbows. The former group would like to buff these even further, while the latter would like to nerf them down. Which means in my eyes that throwing weapons and xbows are balanced overall. Jumping further, some players think that PoP is too hard, while others would like to make it even harder. I hope you can understand that everybody simply can't be appeased. You usually gotta aim into the middle of requests/suggestions/feedback to make a game somewhat appealing to most people.

So, back to topic, I'm greatly against changing the armor rating of plate armors. And I'm 100% sure that it won't happen due to the above (mostly because all of the tests, adjustments and balancings done).

#Edit: Glad to see I'm not alone!

I agree with Gorvex Long live fun

So why armor is so damn expensive especialy compared to weapons? Full lordly set of best armor cost around... 1m? If it cant protect agains peasant with rusty junk xbow, why?? Its hardly a balance its just wierd way of raising difficulty level. Im happy that mid/top tier trops can punish mistakes, thats how should be, but yes, i htink that guy with best eq in game should be able to ride into low tier archers/crossbowmens/anything and just stomp them.

Editor is available but it's so much easier for some people to dream strange dreams and write about it than to do actual tweaking, testing and polishing.

sher said:

Editor is available but it's so much easier for some people to dream strange dreams and write about it than to do actual tweaking, testing and polishing.

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Yeah insted of discussion we can tell others to 'tweak, polish and test'. What this forum is for then? I still think that PoP is best mod, but that doesnt mean i thnk everything is perfect. its 'just almoste' everything.


EDIT:
re:down: im not gona write new post, ur not worth it

Bargian said:

Yeah insted of discussion

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Irrelevant wishes will not bring constructive discussion. You can visit "tetris" forums and post how you'd wish bricks were real people and tetris was GTA. Simply because mighty you thought about it. And have some bright ideas you're willing to share. Then goes similar nonsense as above.

You have same means as modders to tweak game yet you prefer asking moon from them and all around, not putting a tiniest effort even to realize what can and cannot be done in a mod to existing game, which is not an armor simulator. And that even with this at their disposal developers (original and modders) created working difference between armored knights and peasants - yes, there's so much to discuss with you. Your visions. Of how plate armor should make you invincible and mighty.

Just as Gorvex said - for game and balancing purposes.

With the high density of protection that various pieces give it matters little which one you actually equip - the Rule of Cool greatly benefits from this because one does have not "musthave" armours for maximum or best protection.

If you were lucky enough to scavenge a some rusty piece of Royal Plate in an early encounter against some renegade knights you should highly appreciate this philosophy. Heck, even wearing a mail and tabard (which I usually do till I acquire a shiny piece of plate) isn´t that much of a hindrance or downgrade for the player.

Keep in mid, the whole equipment was - and most likely still is - balanced for the sake of AI troopers. And not the player.

And whatever weird and disgusting opinion Gorvex has about realism - he´s right about balancing and gives you a few points to ponder upon.

When I first  came here I was expecting the mod to keep the balance  from the native game
between damage and armor and hp.
To enjoy the mod you gotta let go of that.
Armor and hp are not scaled with the average damage when comparing the numbers with the native
game. They probaly aren't interested in that even, the creators of the mod.
You get a lot more average damage, a bit more armor and (maybe) a bit more hp
then in native.
And yeah, it's rly annoying when a snake armsman 1 hit kills you, but it's part of the mod.

Not all the things that worked great for success in vanilla still work here.
But there are other setups that can winn the game for you here and it's up for you to discover them.
It's not just a scaled vanila game or a redressed one, it has different mechanics too.

@noosers:
Oh yeah, that's a good point too! Thanks to the relatively small armor difference between plate armors and better chainmails/chain plates, you don't have to feel that you sacrificed protection for the looks you'd like to have

And whatever weird and disgusting opinion Gorvex has about realism...

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Hey, I was only trying to say that too much realism in computer games is not fun

Too much realism means Kingdom Come Deliverance

Keeping a balance between realism and fun is key of success of a videogame/mod

IIRC it's mostly because Warband's armor system is pretty bad. Each point of armor is equal, meaning it doesn't matter if it comes from clothing or heavy plate armor. There are soak values for each point of armor and that's it so unless you bloat plate armor to extreme values, there's not much you can do. There's no way to make any given type of armor more susceptible to a specific kind of damage. This really hasn't anything to do with realism, it's about how the game itself works.

voronius said:

And yeah, it's rly annoying when a snake armsman 1 hit kills you, but it's part of the mod.

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The op was talking about hunting crossbows, now you are referencing a troop with the third best xbow in the game, and a pretty good 2 handed axe. But seriously, are people riding full speed into these bolts? I'm playing on full damage, and while it's a noticeable hit, I'm not getting one shot by any archers, much less bandits with hunting crossbows.

Armours are as papers in Warband, game is good but have flaws which will fixed in dear Bannerlord

The issue isn't so much with ranged weapon lethality as it is the absurd strength some units can get. I've been toying around with dialing bows waaaaaay the hell back to realistic levels along with some of the other missile weapons, and it didn't effect the game in truth too much besides the elite units being absolutely murderous in melee compared to before due to having obscene strength levels. So long as you dial that back everything ends up balanced again with reduced missile weapon damage. Although javelins always need to be dialed back in terms of damage because realistically and just reasonably speaking, no thrown weapon is generating force comparable to a crossbow bolt or compound/warbow arrow. Ever. You'd need an atlatl to accomplish that. Javelins are supposed to be purely used for mulching light troops and killing horses.

That said if you're going to be re-balancing anything, the Ebony Knights have to be hit with a nerfbat in general. With the lethality of XBows in the game currently coupled with their sheer strength and penetration orientated weapons, nothing but the knife-ears can counter them. And even then they don't do it well- especially on hilly maps or sieges. With the introduction of guns it might actually be a good idea to give them those instead of their XBows, as the long reload time on the arquebuses will allow cav a chance to get into melee before being shot to pieces by the first two volleys.

Arnulf Floyd said:

Armours are as papers in Warband, game is good but have flaws which will fixed in dear Bannerlord

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Bannerlord is basically just a really high end mod for warband. Unless they change how armor behaves physically in the engine, all Bannerlord will accomplish is nothing more than DR D&D style nonsense that's already in warband. What you need is specific hitboxes and multipliers for striking targets in the back in melee and knockdown attacks.

I agree as Bannerlord is Warband on a new engine with more new features, issue remains combat system with same dumb AI and lacking of commands and tactics

Wyzilla said:

The issue isn't so much with ranged weapon lethality as it is the absurd strength some units can get. I've been toying around with dialing bows waaaaaay the hell back to realistic levels along with some of the other missile weapons, and it didn't effect the game in truth too much besides the elite units being absolutely murderous in melee compared to before due to having obscene strength levels. So long as you dial that back everything ends up balanced again with reduced missile weapon damage. Although javelins always need to be dialed back in terms of damage because realistically and just reasonably speaking, no thrown weapon is generating force comparable to a crossbow bolt or compound/warbow arrow. Ever. You'd need an atlatl to accomplish that. Javelins are supposed to be purely used for mulching light troops and killing horses.

That said if you're going to be re-balancing anything, the Ebony Knights have to be hit with a nerfbat in general. With the lethality of XBows in the game currently coupled with their sheer strength and penetration orientated weapons, nothing but the knife-ears can counter them. And even then they don't do it well- especially on hilly maps or sieges. With the introduction of guns it might actually be a good idea to give them those instead of their XBows, as the long reload time on the arquebuses will allow cav a chance to get into melee before being shot to pieces by the first two volleys.

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If we're talking realism, pretty much nothing could penetrate mail armor except daggers that were specifically designed to be thin enough to go through the gaps between every link. If we're talking gameplay, it makes sense that crossbows fulfill the sniper role because they're slow to reload. The same with thrown weapons, they're inaccurate and their overeall dps is low, so they should be able to burst down enemies. If you were to have realistic combat, anyone wearing at least chain mail would be pretty much unkillable through normal means except with blunt weapons because the impact generates enough force so that armor doesn't matter that much.

Ideally, different weapons that perform a similar role should offer you different options to approach the same target. If you make crossbows simply worse than bows and thrown weapons weak, people would simply stop using them.

Mail wasnt THAT strong.... ur thinking about plate armor, which actualy was rly hard to penetrate. Even heavy crossbows couldnt penetrate good plate, especialy at longer distances. One had to search for openings, helmet visiers, armpitcs, etc. Even blunt dmg wasnt able to penetrate plate, its just strong hit that was taking breath, with strong enough hit could deform plate (which wasnt easy) and with several that hits there could be opening or just it could pump out air from lungs. I cant rly remember which french king that was - maybe u guys remember - he was dragged out of his horse by rebels and they were for like 10 minuts striking his plate armor and couldnt do **** to him before his bodyguards were able to save him. He was safe and sound there (i hope some1 here can remember exacly who and where it was). Even 17 cent guns wasnt able to penetrate top grade plates (and since they were so damn expensive i doubt there was a lot of low grade) impact was strong ofcoz, and it hurt like hell, but wasnt lethal, just like modern bulletproof vest.
For mail, ur right, sword wouldnt penetrate( maybe strong hit and  stab), but it could break ur ribs just coz of blunt impact on small space.


Some kind of refference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBDzczSqEk4&t=218s&ab_channel=GameSpot

also u can check skallagrim - hes a youtuber who test a lot of weapons and armor