Thoughts on the Late Game? Any Benefit of being a King?

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

What's the definition of late game?

I would say when you in one way or another have power equal to a large faction. Either by creating one, being voted the leader of one (that's in a good position/powerful) or have independently taken a factions worth of of fiefs demonstrating your clans power to take out a faction.
I would say it's when the "struggle" has ended and you can confidently take on any enemy and grow your faction/holdings as the apex power.
I doesn't mean you have too, you could take it slow, but just having that power make it a different game state then before.

 

[Figulus]

I would say when you in one way or another have power equal to a large faction. Either by creating one, being voted the leader of one (that's in a good position/powerful) or have independently taken a factions worth of of fiefs demonstrating your clans power to take out a faction.
I would say it's when the "struggle" has ended and you can confidently take on any enemy and grow your faction/holdings as the apex power.
I doesn't mean you have too, you could take it slow, but just having that power make it a different game state then before.

Sounds fair , it's weird but the state you describe is one I yearn for at the beginning but when I get there I feel the challenge has gone and want to start again...that's probably why I don't finish many games...reroll when the challenge has gone. Catch 22.

 

[Jaang]

Well one benefit i on becoming king is that whenever you join a battle, you take full command. Meaning you don't have to worry about your allies going in full circle mode and getting their stuff killed.

Good point.

 

[lcmiracle]

The problem has always been M&B is fundamentally a RPG, not a strategy/kingdom management kind of game. Meaning: in early game you manage a single party, with all the tools needed to do so with that one party. But when you manage a kingdom, you suddenly need a plethora of new tools to manage towns/economic policies/war parties/etc. Or in other words, the things you are doing until late game is too vastly different from that which you did before.

That's why 4X games have different tools from RTS games, and from RPG games. Sure there are additional mechanics added as the game progresses, but the core experience is not changed. Is a hybrid that works well possible? Total War games are hybrids of 4X grand strategy and RTT games, so, possibly, but TW is doing a terrible job of it.

It is also for this reason that the heir system is inherently unfit for this franchaise as it is.

 

[Jaang]

The problem has always been M&B is fundamentally a RPG, not a strategy/kingdom management kind of game. Meaning: in early game you manage a single party, with all the tools needed to do so with that one party. But when you manage a kingdom, you suddenly need a plethora of new tools to manage towns/economic policies/war parties/etc. Or in other words, the things you are doing until late game is too vastly different from that which you did before.

That's why 4X games have different tools from RTS games, and from RPG games. Sure there are additional mechanics added as the game progresses, but the core experience is not changed. Is a hybrid that works well possible? Total War games are hybrids of 4X grand strategy and RTT games, so, possibly, but TW is doing a terrible job of it.

It is also for this reason that the heir system is inherently unfit for this franchaise as it is.

Paradox games like CK2 and CK3 show that you can bridge the RPG/RTS/4X divide.


There's no reason why Taleworlds couldn't add RPG-appropriate kingdom-management tools to put at the player's disposal.


Like, one could literally just add more dialog options in interactions with your governors/vassals/part leaders/clan members, to order them to do or not do things, instead of using sliders/check boxes/menus if you wanted to stay RPG-heavy.


But come on... If I'm the friggin KING, why is it that I can't order my vassals to NOT raid our own freaking villages that we lost 1 day ago because a castle was tajen, and we'll get back in a week when we retake it?


If you can't even give rock bottom basic common sense commands to your vassals, then you're not a king.

 

[lcmiracle]

Paradox games like CK2 and CK3 show that you can bridge the RPG/RTS/4X divide.


There's no reason why Taleworlds couldn't add RPG-appropriate kingdom-management tools to put at the player's disposal.


Like, one could literally just add more dialog options in interactions with your governors/vassals/part leaders/clan members, to order them to do or not do things, instead of using sliders/check boxes/menus if you wanted to stay RPG-heavy.


But come on... If I'm the friggin KING, why is it that I can't order my vassals to NOT raid our own freaking villages that we lost 1 day ago because a castle was tajen, and we'll get back in a week when we retake it?


If you can't even give rock bottom basic common sense commands to your vassals, then you're not a king.

IMO CK may allow a very limited roleplaying experience, it is no more a RPG than, say, a squad management game like XCOM. This isn't about if the game has stats, allows changing of those stats or whatever -- NO, both games share those attributes, but neither game is an RPG because the core experience is not all of it. In the same vein that Total War games aren't RPGs. But that was not my point. I couldn't care less if a game is not an RPG, but it's a good game. I couldn't care less if someone enjoys playing simcity as a roleplaying game, not a city management game. Games are never just one single thing, and it's good for them to have attributes from other genres.

My "problem" is that the actions needed to be taken playing as a king is drastically different from being a lone dude or a single party wandering across the world map constantly. In CK you are always this omnipresent will looking at an abstract map, your commands executed by an invisible/implied servant near instantly. This is not changed regardless if your heir is a healthy upstanding man in the 40s or a deformed inbred challeged person in the early 20s, this is the core gameplay experience of CK2.

But in warband, if being a king means you are tied to a fixed place or places (like in real-life) instead of going around the world map fighting enemies/exploring, you are not experiencing the core gameplay experience. A successful merger of the two genre means the core experience (what players do in-game and how they do it e.g. via a menu) needs to be consistent throughout. Sure you can give the player a new menu to handled their daily business as a king player-character, but it doesn't resolve the problem if that means late game you are almost always fixated on said new screen because you got little to do on the world map, or said menu is the only way to manage a kingdom/clan efficiently. So how does one manage a kingdom running around on the world map constantly? I dunno. Maybe there's gotta be more wars, constantly, against the player, to motivate the player to go around the places all the time.

 

[Apocal]

But in warband, if being a king means you are tied to a fixed place or places (like in real-life) instead of going around the world map fighting enemies/exploring, you are not experiencing the core gameplay experience. A successful merger of the two genre means the core experience (what players do in-game and how they do it e.g. via a menu) needs to be consistent throughout. Sure you can give the player a new menu to handled their daily business as a king player-character, but it doesn't resolve the problem if that means late game you are almost always fixated on said new screen because you got little to do on the world map, or said menu is the only way to manage a kingdom/clan efficiently. So how does one manage a kingdom running around on the world map constantly? I dunno. Maybe there's gotta be more wars, constantly, against the player, to motivate the player to go around the places all the time.

In Bannerlord's late game I spend most of my time wandering the map looking for new clans to recruit.

 

[Rbtparker13]

In Bannerlord's late game I spend most of my time wandering the map looking for new clans to recruit.

Makes me wish for the days when the lords would come to you in hopes for more power.