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Tovias said:
Yeah, it's a **** mod.
Ah, the situational - and I'm willing to claim dramatic too - irony of having a guy called "Master copy-paster" steal assets from people who've actually worked to make them. Always makes you smile, that, doesn't it?...
Really surprising how the developer is ill too, right at this very moment, and so ill he can't non-physically communicate with others.
Also, I wouldn't **** with TheFlyingFishy. I heard he's a sniper with the Marines and that he's pretty good at it...
Oh, and to the guy who dismissed sound-stealing from Battlefield 1 (and callied it "a ****ty FPS"): Check again to see how reality works. The EA lawyers won't agree with you. Also, your taste in games is terrible. BF1 is great.
Really surprising how the developer is ill too, right at this very moment, and so ill he can't non-physically communicate with others.
Also, I wouldn't **** with TheFlyingFishy. I heard he's a sniper with the Marines and that he's pretty good at it...
Oh, and to the guy who dismissed sound-stealing from Battlefield 1 (and callied it "a ****ty FPS"): Check again to see how reality works. The EA lawyers won't agree with you. Also, your taste in games is terrible. BF1 is great.
I can give you one, but I have to host the server I uploaded it to privately, so it's $3.
I remember it pretty good, but no download so far. I'd like the files at some point just PM me them if you really dont wanted share them,cmon.
RIP mod 
I hope u get linked again
I hope u get linked again 
Melfius,
I think your biggest mistake is to invite pizzaman to post here. His reply is the last straw.
Hinkel is not "stingy" as a person, you know.
This is a very old post of his:
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,160990.msg3901054.html#msg3901054
He used to give models from his mod for free.
I think you should stop posting along the line: "Parabellum does not just steal stuffs, we also create new things..."
Let's apply some logic here.
Parabellum clearly steals stuffs. This has been proven beyond doubt. This is what you guys should try to take corrective measures. Whether you guys have come up with very original feature is a separate question that doesn't bear any relevance to the above. In other words, no amount of creative works can justify for the act of stealing materials from others, no matter how small it is.
Do you know what is worse? You guys break trust. I've just checked the background of Iron and Europe, and it comes to my knowledge that the author of those German and French uniforms is a modeller named Rigadoon. He also posted a new project called Iron Europe 2.0. How can we be so sure that features such as tanks and planes are not stolen from this new unreleased project?
Before, a sincere apology and the withdrawal of stolen materials are all that is needed, now, you guys just sink Parabellum to the depth of dirt.
The presence of Master copy paster is of paramount importance here. It is his answer that will define the future of this mod.
As a mediator, I have hoped that he would just come in time and make an official apology to Hinkel. And with some generosity, you guys might be pardoned or granted acceptance to use certain abandoned models from his mods. In the least, you guys can still salvage some graces for yourself. But now, all hopes have been utterly wiped out.
That lunatic VC24 is truly like Gavrilo Princip. With just his post, he blows up the whole simmering cauldron on which we sit tight on its lid to keep it from being explode.
I think your biggest mistake is to invite pizzaman to post here. His reply is the last straw.
Hinkel is not "stingy" as a person, you know.
This is a very old post of his:
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,160990.msg3901054.html#msg3901054
He used to give models from his mod for free.
I think you should stop posting along the line: "Parabellum does not just steal stuffs, we also create new things..."
Let's apply some logic here.
Parabellum clearly steals stuffs. This has been proven beyond doubt. This is what you guys should try to take corrective measures. Whether you guys have come up with very original feature is a separate question that doesn't bear any relevance to the above. In other words, no amount of creative works can justify for the act of stealing materials from others, no matter how small it is.
Do you know what is worse? You guys break trust. I've just checked the background of Iron and Europe, and it comes to my knowledge that the author of those German and French uniforms is a modeller named Rigadoon. He also posted a new project called Iron Europe 2.0. How can we be so sure that features such as tanks and planes are not stolen from this new unreleased project?
Before, a sincere apology and the withdrawal of stolen materials are all that is needed, now, you guys just sink Parabellum to the depth of dirt.
The presence of Master copy paster is of paramount importance here. It is his answer that will define the future of this mod.
As a mediator, I have hoped that he would just come in time and make an official apology to Hinkel. And with some generosity, you guys might be pardoned or granted acceptance to use certain abandoned models from his mods. In the least, you guys can still salvage some graces for yourself. But now, all hopes have been utterly wiped out.
That lunatic VC24 is truly like Gavrilo Princip. With just his post, he blows up the whole simmering cauldron on which we sit tight on its lid to keep it from being explode.
VC24
Recruit
"VC24, Tovias, and Turtler have presented good arguments, but that is not how a negotiation works. As ive already said, this isnt a bar fight.
VC24, your argument might be valid, but please remove it, it juest keep the fight going on.
Tovias, your argument is true (some modders even call their groups "studios") but you are helping the fight, and that nost correct. We are trying to act peacefully, no one (i hope) wants a fight, so you also shouldnt. Please remove it"
I respect your request, however my comments will stay, as they are calling out hypocritical practices of this community.
I will say that frankly, I had no idea this would become such a debate about property right.
I am going to make some acknowledgments: Stealing assets without permission is indeed wrong, I understand that it does take many man hours and a driving passion for what you're doing to be able to create any form of media, and that the artist is the owner of the content he creates.
I was rather inflammatory against a generalization of the modders and for that I am sorry.
However, my argument still breaks down to: are you in this community to encourage growth and help? or are you here to point fingers and show off? Do you create assets in hope that you will see talented individuals use them? Or do you do it just to stroke your ego? Do you create to use? Or do you sit on your assets like trophys? This appears to be a mod that many people currently (yep, still have my copy) enjoy and such behavior against a modder who honestly was only giving what a large factor of the community appears to want, is un-befitting of a community.
Yes he didnt ask permission, but it wasnt just a bunch of garbage thrown together, he clearly added effort and work to this piece. Adding to the assets he borrowed as opposed to mashing others mods together and distributing it. Again, hes only giving the community what they have been clearly asking for sometime now.
@Marmud even if I did nothing the powder keg would have blown. You guys are viciously researching and posting copyright law just to justify editing a file for a video game.
VC24, your argument might be valid, but please remove it, it juest keep the fight going on.
Tovias, your argument is true (some modders even call their groups "studios") but you are helping the fight, and that nost correct. We are trying to act peacefully, no one (i hope) wants a fight, so you also shouldnt. Please remove it"
I respect your request, however my comments will stay, as they are calling out hypocritical practices of this community.
I will say that frankly, I had no idea this would become such a debate about property right.
I am going to make some acknowledgments: Stealing assets without permission is indeed wrong, I understand that it does take many man hours and a driving passion for what you're doing to be able to create any form of media, and that the artist is the owner of the content he creates.
I was rather inflammatory against a generalization of the modders and for that I am sorry.
However, my argument still breaks down to: are you in this community to encourage growth and help? or are you here to point fingers and show off? Do you create assets in hope that you will see talented individuals use them? Or do you do it just to stroke your ego? Do you create to use? Or do you sit on your assets like trophys? This appears to be a mod that many people currently (yep, still have my copy) enjoy and such behavior against a modder who honestly was only giving what a large factor of the community appears to want, is un-befitting of a community.
Yes he didnt ask permission, but it wasnt just a bunch of garbage thrown together, he clearly added effort and work to this piece. Adding to the assets he borrowed as opposed to mashing others mods together and distributing it. Again, hes only giving the community what they have been clearly asking for sometime now.
@Marmud even if I did nothing the powder keg would have blown. You guys are viciously researching and posting copyright law just to justify editing a file for a video game.
When I say you guys, I mean pizzaman and those who directly participate in that mod. You and me are just outsiders.
But pizzaman's response is particularly problematic. He doesn't acknowledge the wrongdoing of Parabellum, and even defends it in a certain way. This just enrages the public even more.
I have a feeling that Hinkel withholds his judgment until the end when he reads pizzaman's comment. Had the guy just says a few words like: "That dude (mastercopypaster) is young and you probably scares the pants off him, so he might not come back..." That would be better.
He is the first of the apologist, let's me get it clear, no more apologist, only sincere apology, or people in Moddb will feel inclined to ban you forever!
pizzaman_6
Recruit
I don't know why my answer is so problematic. I said that it would've been better if Master_Copypaster had gotten those permissions to begin with. It was definitely a mistake, and had I been around development at an earlier stage, I would've strongly advised against not getting the proper permissions. Like I said, he is young, and he probably didn't plan all this out. The mod started as a personal project for his own use, and has grown into a lot more since he first started working on it. He didn't have a lot of skill at first, and learned how to code and model over time. Now he makes a lot of his own models, but there are a lot of placeholders and leftovers from Red Wars and stuff he kinda threw in there when it was just his project. It's such a huge project, and we kinda have our work cut out for us on bugfixing and adding new features that make M&B more viable for 20th century warfare. So I'm asking you, hat in hand to please let us use these models. We can give you our resources and coding to use if you want it, and maybe we can do some testing for your mods, too.
Melfius said:
I'm sorry mate, but since when the heck do you think Mod Consumers- as in, the average Joe Schmoe and law abiding, rule obeying forum goer- is meaningless just because we don't possess the knowledge to mod?
I don't need to personally be a mod to see how The Parabellum Screwed The Damn Pooch when it came to asset requests, for the same reason I don't need to work at freaking Electronic Arts to realize that taking their assets without approval is a spectacular way to get in front of a legal team. The idea that I somehow need to have created an asset myself in order to weigh in on a mod's status and nature is freaking bogus, and the same kind of guilt tripping I see every day in lieu of a better argument.
And again, My comments are not meaningless. They touch on the modding etiquette of the matter. They touch on the way taking from EA is a spectacularly reckless idea. They touch on the kind of feeling of betrayal a naive player has when they see reports of the Mod Creator saying that their ModDB project was pulled down to an accident and that the ModDB staff said as much.
And they touched on the merits of the mod itself, including how I DO Think it is fun, and has broken new ground in how modern warfare is depicted in the Mount and Blade Engine.
The idea that you get a free ride to denigrate me personally (which is a big no no) let alone pour my comment down the toilet because I am not a member of a mod team is frankly stupid, and will never fly.
And moreover, if you want to defend this mod this is precisely the wrong way to do it. Because it makes you look like callous, uncaring trolls.
Melfius said:
No, it's not.
But you seem to be under the mistaken impression that this is a negotiation. It's not.
This mod is in clear violation of forum rules. It is almost certainly in violation of EA's intellectual property rights. What you don't seem to get is that- for however fun the mod is ( and I do think it is fun), it is on Awfully thin ice.
A DCMA could come down from EA tomorrow (and in the case of ModDB I think it might already have been) demanding that this mod be pulled from absolutely everywhere, and the raw data on the maker's computer destroyed. Lord knows valid DCMAs have done more for less (see: Nintendo and Zelda and Metroid).
This is a case where this mod Absolutely Needs the goodwill and cooperation of the rest of the community- or at least as much as it can to survive- in order to continue existing on this forum and elsewhere. The only way that's going to happen is if amends are made, and made earnestly and sincerely. That includes appealing to the people who have noted the stolen assets.
This is not a negotiation, this is probably closer to a parole agreement than anything else.
Melfius said:
Frankly, an honest and reasonable discussion of the issues at hand is probably one of the few things that will keep this thread from disintegrating further.
Melfius said:
Yeah, because I'm oh so very sure that Heinkel has considered getting a shotgun and going to blow master_copypaster' head off over this.
Not.
This is an internet forum, not a bar. Not a gun rack. Not a war zone. And nobody has done some of the worst things you can do on the internet (such as issue actual death threats or try to destroy someone else's computer, Hell-freaking-lo EVE Online).
The chances of things not being "peaceful" are basically nil. So let's not pretend we have to artificially stomp out all contradictory opinions or arguments in order to prevent Talesworld forum from degenerating into the Second Congo War.
If anything the threat's probably in the opposite direction. Where they simply delete this entire thread altogether.
Melfius said:
Firstly: no, I'm not going to. Because that would be pointless virtue signalling after the fact, and what is more render parts of the thread (like your reply) unintelligible).
Secondly: The idea that "keeping up the fight" or my post is meaningless is stillborn. It doesn't work. It is as valid as anybody's comment on this short of the people dealing firsthand with the assets issue (like Heinkel) or the mod itself.
And thirdly: I'm not the one using gratuitous curse words for no good reason, and thus degenerating matters even further.
Ultimately, any salvaging of this mod will have to wait for the mod's creator (such as it is). Because you can't really apologize for another person, and I don't pretend to know if anyone else has the original material they were working on.
For what it is worth, I would be more than happy to see this mod continue if the mod creator can apologize to those he took from without approval, if they remove the material they cannot get approval from (like the N&S stuff), and go on. Because again, I do think the mod is fun and honestly ground breaking in some ways.
But that doesn't mean it gets exemption from the basic rules. It doesn't mean the rules about asset use can be ignored. And it doesn't mean it will be immune to a death blow from EA if and when it gets moving.
Ultimately, it's going to come down to the Mod Dev and those that worked for him. And as an outsider without much skin in the game (since I already have the thing downloaded), I honestly have to give some kudos Pizzaman 6 for trying to make the best of a spectacularly bad situation.
I don't think they *have *made the best of a bad situation, and Mahmud pointed out some of the issues. But they've been here and they are tried. And frankly given their reasonableness, their willingness to admit mistakes were made, and their calm manner... that's the kind of help this mod needs right now.
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