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[Suggestion]Nerf horseman 180 degrees thrust radius and make it depends on speed

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EvgenS

Knight at Arms
WBVCM&B
I mean common it is completely unrealistic when Horseman on full speed can make 90 degree!!! thrust with respect to his movement direction (either left side or right) and makes solid damage. Even if horseman manages to keep his long lance with 1 hand on such speed somehow he fails to make any harm to his target anyway.

My suggestion is to revamp this mechanic. If we take ideal case, Horseman side thrust radius has to depend on:

- length/weight of the lance/spear. The less the length/weight the more radius is.
- speed of the horse. The lower the speed the more radius is.
- 1H/2H use. With 2H horseman has bigger radius.
- may be anything else....


I know that this game has already unique physics and I believe you can implement this as well.




 

Styo

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
And its completely unrealistic when you keep spam swinging a 2 handed sword or axe over and over with out getting tired.  :roll:

Mighty strong arms you got
 

SockMonkeh

Knight at Arms
I would like to see diminishing damage the farther from a 30 degree (estimate) cone straight ahead of you that your lance travels.
 

EvgenS

Knight at Arms
WBVCM&B
Styo said:
And its completely unrealistic when you keep spam swinging a 2 handed sword or axe over and over with out getting tired.  :roll:

Mighty strong arms you got

Styo, in this thread we discuss horseman unrealistic thrust radius. If you wanna discuss unrealistic tiredness of all classes and suggest to add stamina indicator or anything else, please feel free to make another thread.
 

SteveO

Sergeant
He is discussing the unrealistic thrust radius by pointing out other unrealistic things that are in the game.

Realism doesn't necessarily equal good. 
 

Berserker Pride

Grandmaster Knight
WB
SockMonkeh said:
I would like to see diminishing damage the farther from a 30 degree (estimate) cone straight ahead of you that your lance travels.
That is the perfect idea.  Historically thrusting was used and is a useful tactic ingame.  But a wrist is only so strong and hitting something with your wrist at 180 degrees from the horse's direction would probably be a good way to break your wrist. So you would have to make sure not to put too much force into a stab like that.  I like this because it isn't a hardcap and doesn't restrict you from doing something entirely it just adds dimishing returns.
 

Merlkir

SteveO said:
He is discussing the unrealistic thrust radius by pointing out other unrealistic things that are in the game.

Realism doesn't necessarily equal good.

He is saying "No, don't fix that, because other things are also ****ed up" which makes a lot of sense.

It's a good idea, suggested before and should be done.
 

kingofnoobia

Master Knight
M&BWB
Styo said:
And its completely unrealistic when you keep spam swinging a 2 handed sword or axe over and over with out getting tired.  :roll:

Mighty strong arms you got
Several of you nK guys always go on about 2hander spam everytime something about cavalry is mentioned. It's really annoying. What is the last time you played on foot? I can assure you that good two handed players do not spam their weapons. The ones who do are easy to take out with ANY melee weapon, though if you aren't good at blocking you'll need to bring a good shield. The only thing that is 'spammed' right now are throwing weapons, especially the axes.

Which does not mean I agree with the OP. We should stop trying to nerf lancer's ability to fight head on (if they do this by turning their lance in a ridiculous angle, it is fine by me), because lancers aren't too hard to kill head on if you bring your own polearm. The annoyance lancers cause is their ability to simply gather kills by running around the field killing players who aren't paying attention to them. This ability should be nerfed by making armor stronger imo. Many rl armors would not get penetrated by a lance at full gallop, like the brigandine. The damage done to people in heavy armor would, irl, be mostly the blunt damage done by the shock the rider crashes into them. That damage is not to be underestimated, of course, but someone in brigandine, or any of the other top armors (only about surcoat over mail I'm not sure if it will hold a lance strike, probably not I think), should be able to resist three couched lance strikes, and several more thrusts (5 or something). They would have to actually fight the infantrymen if they want a kill, not just backrape them. If that is done then cavalry should not be nerfed at all, in fact they could perfectly be buffed somewhat to make up for nerfs done over the time of the beta.

Adressing the op again: sometimes it is a bad idea to completely try to make a game realistic. In this case it costs gameplay for lancers: I dislike lancers, but doing what you suggest would just cripple them too much I think. They have been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed, up to the point where they start seeing themselves as underpowered. I do not think they are, I simply think they have been nerfed at the wrong domain.
 

Merlkir

The annoyance lancers cause is their ability to simply gather kills by running around the field killing players who aren't paying attention to them.

This WILL be removed by limiting their ability to kill-touch you with the tip of the lance, reaching to the back or to the side ridiculously as they pass you by. During the infamous patch where the thrusting angle was broken, this didn't happen and the horsemen suddenly started to couche lances and use swords.
 

Harn

Sergeant Knight
The damage of thrusting has already been severely lowered so that the couched lance is becoming the dominant attack. Limiting cavalry attack abilities any further could actually start to render them underpowered. I was a strong proponent of lowering thrust damage. Armagan made it happen with .632. Now a cavalryman needs to stab someone at FULL speed 2-4 or more times depending on armor (similar to infantry battles).

Cavalry need the side stabs in order to present any kind of challenge against a spear man. Without it, they would stand no chance at all. Cavalary charging at full speed already tend towards a 45 degree angle attack when thrusting to maintain speed and gain speed bonus damage. Against a spear man, a horseman will tend to turn his horse away at an angle from the spear man and thrust at something approaching a 90 degree angle, but that's also cutting his speed down by a third in order to get a good turn angle and avoid the retaliatory strike. Against a pike man, only someone with a great lance would even risk trying to face off against one.

There's a time to balance realism against game play. I'm personally of the opinion that cavalry have just about reached that balance in regards to damage.
 

SteveO

Sergeant
He is saying "No, don't fix that, because other things are also ****ed up" which makes a lot of sense.

He never said that not tiring out was ****ed up, nor should be changed.  All he said was that arguing something as unrealistic (as in the OP), doesn't make sense because there's other things that are unrealistic as well.  (generic) You claim something should be changed due to realism just because  you don't like it while not changing others that you do like.



    The annoyance lancers cause is their ability to simply gather kills by running around the field killing players who aren't paying attention to them.

Wait....so, what are you saying?  That people shouldn't suffer for not paying attention?
 

Hamel

Sergeant Knight
To the general idea of this thread:

NO, THIS: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,83327.0.html

:wink:
 
Styo said:
And its completely unrealistic when you keep spam swinging a 2 handed sword or axe over and over with out getting tired.  :roll:

Mighty strong arms you got

Well, these people aren't modern pansies who get puffed after walking for five minutes.
 

Cwvym

Squire
M&BWB
Night Ninja said:
Styo said:
And its completely unrealistic when you keep spam swinging a 2 handed sword or axe over and over with out getting tired.  :roll:

Mighty strong arms you got

Well, these people aren't modern pansies who get puffed after walking for five minutes.

I am puffed reading this thread for five minutes.
 

Marin Peace Bringer

Sergeant Knight
Alright so first this is getting into a inf. vs cavalry. players battle. I play as a horsemen but i am not saying this with any kind of bias,
Here are some facts about history, first True the horsemen did not thrust, but that is because of the way battles were fought, cavalry didn't ride off alone they fought in formation (at least till they charged and got broken up) but even then they still tread to regroup, now infantry also fought in formation so horsemen didn't have to swing there lance around because infantry didn't jump to one side or the other trying to Dodge, (if they did they would only hit the guy next to them) so there are the facts and i will say one last thing, Mount and Blade is a fun game, sure some things are "unfair" but not really, if horsemen are "over powered" its not because of the game its the players on the other team, if infantry would work together and take the time to get better then they wouldn't get killed by horsemen as often, and don't say some thing should be changed just because you dint like it or because your not good enough to counter it, I'm not saying this to you Zheka (in fact you are not ,from what i can tell, doing this for those re sons) So Finlay this, the game IS balanced now, horsemen are not easy to play as and be good, if people think that any one can be good at cavalry then you are wrong, i dint claim that archers are easy to play as, they are hard, same with infantry, so just because there is some one playing as cavalry that is better then you and can kill you every time do not mean the game is flauded, just means they are better then you.
 

Styo

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Marin Peace Bringer said:
Alright so first this is getting into a inf. vs cavalry. players battle. I play as a horsemen but i am not saying this with any kind of bias,
Here are some facts about history, first True the horsemen did not thrust, but that is because of the way battles were fought, cavalry didn't ride off alone they fought in formation (at least till they charged and got broken up) but even then they still tread to regroup, now infantry also fought in formation so horsemen didn't have to swing there lance around because infantry didn't jump to one side or the other trying to Dodge, (if they did they would only hit the guy next to them) so there are the facts and i will say one last thing, Mount and Blade is a fun game, sure some things are "unfair" but not really, if horsemen are "over powered" its not because of the game its the players on the other team, if infantry would work together and take the time to get better then they wouldn't get killed by horsemen as often, and don't say some thing should be changed just because you dint like it or because your not good enough to counter it, I'm not saying this to you Zheka (in fact you are not ,from what i can tell, doing this for those re sons) So Finlay this, the game IS balanced now, horsemen are not easy to play as and be good, if people think that any one can be good at cavalry then you are wrong, i dint claim that archers are easy to play as, they are hard, same with infantry, so just because there is some one playing as cavalry that is better then you and can kill you every time do not mean the game is flauded, just means they are better then you.
Thank you. This is exactly my point. New beta testers that come into beta whine and complain that the game is unbalanced. Now what they did was nerf 2 handers that they are too fast because they simply would get owned before by the beta players that were here first. There for they nerfed the 2 handers.

As for the lancing, Yes i play it alot but doesnt mean i want it nerfed. But the nrf i would agree to is so the cav cannot thrust whle going full speed as thier arm would snap off. Also i would like to see that the lance breaks after 1 couch.
 

EvgenS

Knight at Arms
WBVCM&B
Harn said:
Now a cavalryman needs to stab someone at FULL speed 2-4 or more times depending on armor (similar to infantry battles).

Harn, on full speed you can kill light armored target with one trust. Average armored target you will almost kill leaving some little health. 4 or more times for highly armored targets on FULL speed is a fairy tailes. 2-3 maximum. But how offten do you see fully equiped infantry in the game? It have to be totally unbalanced teams, so the one side can afford this.

Harn said:
Cavalry need the side stabs in order to present any kind of challenge against a spear man. Without it, they would stand no chance at all. Cavalary charging at full speed already tend towards a 45 degree angle attack when thrusting to maintain speed and gain speed bonus damage. Against a spear man, a horseman will tend to turn his horse away at an angle from the spear man and thrust at something approaching a 90 degree angle, but that's also cutting his speed down by a third in order to get a good turn angle and avoid the retaliatory strike. Against a pike man, only someone with a great lance would even risk trying to face off against one.
Common Harn you know better then me that currently any spearman 1 vs 1 do not stand a chance against horseman with lance. Just because even the sortest lance is longer that any spear available and horseman will avoid any harm with manevour described by you above till needed result.

As to pike, yes I agree, it is fearsome weapon versus cavalry but how many Fractions has it? Only Rhodoks. And do you find it a universal weapon? it is only good against cavalry and as support in formation fights against lightly armored targets, so it is far from being universal. 

Harn said:
There's a time to balance realism against game play. I'm personally of the opinion that cavalry have just about reached that balance in regards to damage.

And my opinion is still that cavalry is overpowered due to this 180 thrust ability at full speed. And yes, cav have to suck vs pikeman untill it flank him. It is better to make pikes 2H so the ranged units could counter them then to leave this unbalanced ability of cavalry.
 

EvgenS

Knight at Arms
WBVCM&B
Marin Peace Bringer said:
if infantry would work together

And if cavalry would work together?

Lets discuss this subject without "if" but providing facts relying on current game mechanics.
 
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