[Suggestion] Melee Combat Movement Revamp and Weapon & Swing Sweet Spots

[Attacksmurfen]

I agree on everything (I actually siggested something like the last diagram some time ago).
The only thing I would like to add is that a sword will usually have it's biggest damage potential around the middle of the blade. Pointy swords usually have their best cutting spot even nearer the hilt than that. But your model should work for the game, to not complicate things too much.

...But I would really like if pointy sword models had a considerable higher thrust value than not so pointy ones, but have their swing damage peak closer to the hilt. Compare great sword to Nord swords. Cutting swords, i.e. sabres (and Nord swords too), would have a larger "red zone" so they would be doing close to maximum damage almost all the time.

 

[Yellonet]

This should really be a must for the game... it would certainly improve gameplay a lot.

 

[Crazed Rabbit]

I agree on everything (I actually siggested something like the last diagram some time ago).
The only thing I would like to add is that a sword will usually have it's biggest damage potential around the middle of the blade. Pointy swords usually have their best cutting spot even nearer the hilt than that. But your model should work for the game, to not complicate things too much.

...But I would really like if pointy sword models had a considerable higher thrust value than not so pointy ones, but have their swing damage peak closer to the hilt. Compare great sword to Nord swords. Cutting swords, i.e. sabres (and Nord swords too), would have a larger "red zone" so they would be doing close to maximum damage almost all the time.

Hmm.  I recall talking to one member of ARMA who said the sword would cut hardest if you hit with the section six or so inches from the point.  To me, this makes sense, as that section will be going faster than the middle section, and thus apply more force.

And having different 'red zones' for different swords of the same length is an interesting.

In theory, the "x" function can be used to switch between two pole weapons.

I really like that idea.  A quick switch between different grips, and could also be used for spears, so they could switch to a style of fighting better suited to close in opponents.

CR

 

[ares007]

In theory, the "x" function can be used to switch between two pole weapons.

I really like that idea.  A quick switch between different grips, and could also be used for spears, so they could switch to a style of fighting better suited to close in opponents.

CR

It could also allow you to switch between normal grip and half-sword grip with a 2-handed sword. (link in my sig)

 

[Attacksmurfen]

I agree on everything (I actually siggested something like the last diagram some time ago).
The only thing I would like to add is that a sword will usually have it's biggest damage potential around the middle of the blade. Pointy swords usually have their best cutting spot even nearer the hilt than that. But your model should work for the game, to not complicate things too much.

...But I would really like if pointy sword models had a considerable higher thrust value than not so pointy ones, but have their swing damage peak closer to the hilt. Compare great sword to Nord swords. Cutting swords, i.e. sabres (and Nord swords too), would have a larger "red zone" so they would be doing close to maximum damage almost all the time.

Hmm.  I recall talking to one member of ARMA who said the sword would cut hardest if you hit with the section six or so inches from the point.  To me, this makes sense, as that section will be going faster than the middle section, and thus apply more force.

And having different 'red zones' for different swords of the same length is an interesting.

In theory, the "x" function can be used to switch between two pole weapons.

I really like that idea.  A quick switch between different grips, and could also be used for spears, so they could switch to a style of fighting better suited to close in opponents.

CR

It depends on the sword, many pointy swords have too little mass near the tip to make any powerful cuts from there, they have their "sweet spot" below the middle of the blade. If you hold a sword and "slap" it, where it has it's center of percussion - where the blade doesn't vibrate, is usually where it will cut best (but not always )

 

[Yellonet]

This deserves a lot more attention. I believe that implementing should be put up high on the to-do list as it would turn hack and slash into actual skill based combat, furthermore it would balance the weapons in the game and it would be realistic. Everybody wins....except the spammers

 

[SteveO]

The reason is straightforward; if you want to stop the weapon, as you do at the end of your swing, you're going to have to slow it down.  Slowing it down means less damage, of course.

Yah I get that, even said so in my post, but the drop off rate wouldn't be that long.  When you swing a bat or something, you don't stop 3/4 of the way through and slowly end it, you just end it very rapidly.  The drop off from red to yellow should be much shorter.

 

[Crazed Rabbit]

When you swing a bat or something, you don't stop 3/4 of the way through and slowly end it, you just end it very rapidly.  The drop off from red to yellow should be much shorter.

Ah, well as I said these are just potential setups.

From playing .641:
It seems the turn movement rate is lower.  I think it would be better to instead increase that or remove it and apply my suggestions to movement limitations only while swing your weapon.

If we wanted to prevent people from whipping around while running, I'd instead suggest to decrease forward movement speed depending on the angle of the turn. So if you turn just a little, you wouldn't lose any speed.  Pull a 180, and you lose all forward momentum and it's like starting from a standing position.  But you would be able to turn as fast as you want (or at least significantly faster than now) and the camera wouldn't become disconnected.

It depends on the sword, many pointy swords have too little mass near the tip to make any powerful cuts from there, they have their "sweet spot" below the middle of the blade. If you hold a sword and "slap" it, where it has it's center of percussion - where the blade doesn't vibrate, is usually where it will cut best

Indeed, that is what I was told, along with the idea that the CoP would be near where I marked it.  Of course, I am far from an expert and the 'sweet spot' in my diagrams is only a suggestion.

CR

 

[TRU]

There's some great ideas here... especially liked the angle limit for turning while swinging. I've been melee sparring since early beta, and fights have always been highly influenced by spinning/wacky attack directions. Limiting turn speed has at times made things feel worse, and nerfed the thrust/overhand aim.

I agree there should be more difference in the speed of movement vs weapons speed. Basically people can dance around more then they stay in front of a person and concentrate their attacks. That should be possible but much harder to do. You mentioned a stable footing bonus, similar to that I was thinking that for L and R swings, your movement speed is reduced slightly.

The arcs could use work, and although your pictures are nice that last one does not represent the current 1h swing. The sword is held back practically at 6 oclock in game... but even then something to adjust the prime location of the swing to the front.

 

[Qwertyman]

OP has my support 100%, everything there is exactly what i want to see in the game, it would fix SO many issues with the game and add so much depth in one foul swoop.

 

[Berserker Pride]

This definitely needs to happen.  Turn restrictions have been tried in three patches or more and consistently makes combat feel clunky and wrong.  The current incantation actually seems to have the opposite of intended effect.  Because the camera fails to follow your character you actually tend to spam swing more.  After all you can't see what is going on so your only chance to survive is to throw a horizontal swing out there and hope it connects with something.  All your suggestions would force players to be aware of what is going on at all times.  The glaivers and long axe users would be forced to actually keep proper distance from you since they could no longer slice you in half from hugging distance.  This in turn would encourage them to keep you in view rather than spinning wildly.  And making the ideal time to hit someone be in front of you rather than next to your ear can only improve combat.

 

[Yellonet]

Right now I'm just waiting for this or something very similar to be implemented. It would really solve a huge amount of problems about the current weapon balance and how fighting is conducted.
Spears dominate right now because they are the weapons that takes most advantage of the current weapon implementation.

Can't wait for this to be implemented!

 

[Mabons]

It's just like the old native stuff. I want it back.

 

[Úlfheðinn]

This would fix so many things that are odd about the game.

I support this idea!

 

[Renon]

This is the basis for how I'd implement a new combat system.  Combat geography is the where the most strategy of weapon fighting is, not blocking unless you have a shield.  In essence if the main drive behind the combat system were switched to movement, with blocking/parrying as an extra defense then weapon swings could be sped up and the swing prime removed.  However I don't know how the block system works in Warband, if it still auto-blocks if you pick the right direction.  A better way to do it that would meld with "Swing Sweet Spots" is if you block in right direction automatically and have to time it, but if the weapon hits you before the weapon hitbox it would be a successful hit(making you still have to look in the right direction while re-blocking).  I'm sure this would have the effect of making people much more difficult to take down one on one(A good thing in my opinion, as kills would be far more satisfying but this is not my game ).  This also brings to mind a plethora of mods a SCA combat expert made for Oblivion to make combat more realistic(but fun).  More or less, it would be nice to have the weapon prime removed(for faster swinging)and still be balanced.  Mostly, there just needs to be more combat geography implemented.

 

[Crazed Rabbit]

I'm glad to hear of more positive feedback.

I'm also bumping this because I think the game could still benefit from weapon swing sweet spots and more weapon mesh sweet spots.  Weapon mesh sweet spots have been, I think, partially implemented.

So I view getting the weapon swing sweet spots implemented with a significant impact as the most useful of the suggestions in my OP.  I've liked the increase in weapon animation speed, but I still believe weapon swing sweet spots offer a lot of potential improvement.

CR

 

[kingofnoobia]

I agree with most things in the OP, but increasing weapon speed is completely out of the question. In fact, I would prefer them to be decreased generally, and most players seem to agree (the .660 combat speed thread). Manual blocking is already hard enough as it was in .650, now in .660 I don't even enjoy dueling anymore, no one I met is able to block consistently (including myself, from the moment my enemy starts to feint at least), duels are over in a matter of a few seconds. Even higher weapon speeds is a ridiculous idea.

But I don't want to sound too negative. The other ideas are varying from good to great, and are certainly worth a try.

 

[omzdog]

I don't agree with the sweet spot of the weapons. the 'forte' or middle part of the blade is a good place to hit someone and the parts of the sword that are left white should do good blunt damage instead of slice or w/e its called (cut?).

The gliave and axe are also off. Lets say you swing the axe and the wood part hits a target. You are then able to drag the weapon back so that the axe head strikes the target's back. I don't know perhaps thats a weak argument.

 

[Merlkir]

The gliave and axe are also off. Lets say you swing the axe and the wood part hits a target. You are then able to drag the weapon back so that the axe head strikes the target's back. I don't know perhaps thats a weak argument.

That wouldn't do much damage if any at all. The axe isn't that sharp so that a drawcut would do much harm.

 

[omzdog]

Drag that ax on someones neck and thats an instant kill. Its a much better system then having the wood do damage which makes little sense.

Why must you contend with everything I say, even when what I say is sensible?