Suggestion - limit in-game admin interventions

[Erk]

Am I the only one that has the impression that gameplay is constantly broken by people requiring admin intervention?

I'll give a few examples that most people who have played for a while will recognize:

* Robberies:

Spoiler

The moment you attempt to rob someone of more than the miserable 500-1000 gold coins, odds are this person will call an admin. Usually, you are greeted by: "You can't rob this much, learn the rules noob. LOL. Calling an admin, wait" or similar statements. The person will then proceed to stop interacting with you in character and claim that if you attack him, it will be a random attack.

* Wars:

Spoiler

Endless times I have seen people declaring that a war is illegal and arguing over it in global. War rules keep changing across servers (need for a RP reason, number of messages, waiting times, waiting times before rejoining a fight, spawn killing, surrenders...), people end up being afraid of actually breaking any rules so they actually interrupt their attacks.

* Bounties, assassinations:

Spoiler

Almost every single assassination I have seen is followed by a long time arguing with the administration over the validity of the reason to issue the contract or whether all the assassination rules were followed. Again, rules keep changing so this leads to a lot of confusion.

* Metagaming:

Spoiler

Faction chat metagaming, global metagaming, TS, steam, name it. One of the worst, since it is very difficult to establish when metagaming has occurred. Again, it usually leads to VERY long discussions with the players involved.

In a populated server, admins will take time to show up. This means that all these complaints effectively stop immersion. The whining to admins and discussions about rules are CONSTANT.

On the administration side, there is pressure to provide answers and move on to the next case, which means that a lot of the times rushed answers are provided. Of course, this ends up meaning that admins judge most cases based on the reputation of the player, leading to the famous bias in the judgments and people trying to "befriend" the administration members desperately. Given that we are all vulnerable to fall for adulation (and specially young people, sorry), this is a real issue.

My proposal is the following:

Do not intervene in game except in cases of major trolling / randoming or VERY disruptive behaviors. Deal with the complaints via forums instead but make sure to impose "standardized" and harsher punishments.

I see a lot of benefits to this:

- Less likely to make a false accusation if you know it is going to be thoroughly investigated.

- Border edge situations will probably not be reported.

- Decisions become publicly observable so less room for admin abuse, specially if more than one admin is required to make a decision about a case.

In addition, I would suggest forbidding admins to use their RP name as an admin name. When RPing, admins should not mention / reveal their admin status in a server. When administrating via the forums, admins should choose a different name that complicates identification and not reveal it to players.

Discussion about drawbacks - hidden admin identity

Spoiler

I do understand that this is not necessarily enforceable to a 100%. But the current situation is even less desirable. Everyone knows who is an admin and this breaks immersion. You don't piss off a RPing admin, this is well known. Even if he doesn't come back to judge his own case (which constantly happens), odds are he will use his influence to screw you.

Discussion about drawbacks - dealing with complaints in forums

Spoiler

I understand that an issue with this suggestion could be that players get pissed off because some unfair events happen in game and they can't do much about it, which leads to frustration. However, I feel that the current situation is worse. In addition, let's be realistic, not that many people play PW. Knowing that the threat of being banned via forums from a popular server was real, most people would avoid breaking the rules to start with.

Discussion - what to do if whining still occurs

Spoiler

A further complication is that people could still complaint and whine in game, discussing over the future evaluation of the case in the forums. I don't have a good answer for this; maybe one could write a rule that specifies that whining off character should be treated in RP as a deranged person, allowing people who DO NOT want to have such discussions to deal with the whiners in a RP manner. For instance, demanding them to stop stalking you or face the sharp end of the sword.

 

[Splintert]

It's no use, I've been arguing for less rules (and by extension, less intervention) for months here on the forums. Servers do whatever will get them the most players, and giving them free stuff and using admin powers at every slightest complaint makes them happy.

After some time, a general degradation of the gameplay occurs leading to a bunch of people trying to convince admins to ban their opposition.

 

[gesha17]

We tried something like it on EU_Union, back when it was still up and running on borderlands V2.
We said that all complaints must be reported at the bank, and it didn't work.
Players want their complaints to be responded asap, and quite a few people actually came to the bank... They leave with the impression of "Lazy admins" and just by not having your complaint handled on the go, you immersion will be broken even more.
I think that if players start making good reports, they will be handled much faster, and this will make it easier for the admin staff, and the player base. In most of the cases you stated, ppl just scream in admin chat "ADMIN ILLEGAL WAR" and such things, but for example, if the player stated his faction color, who declared war and his faction color, this can be handled through admin chat only, and it will be much faster.

 

[Korbal]

It's no use, I've been arguing for less rules (and by extension, less intervention) for months here on the forums. Servers do whatever will get them the most players, and giving them free stuff and using admin powers at every slightest complaint makes them happy.

After some time, a general degradation of the gameplay occurs leading to a bunch of people trying to convince admins to ban their opposition.

Yeah thats the point. Nobody bothers anymore with that. PW is degenerating more and more where faction are discouraged and commoners are encouraged. Its becomes a safe heaven for  the players where can become rich without any help protected by the admins aka gods.

 

[BernTheLost]

Tbh in the end of the day it boils down to this,

Whilst it would be ideal to do this, it isn't what the player base wants. They are the consumers and we the providers.
Its not about what we want as owners its about what they want and what they have come to expect.

You can argue all day about these changes but the fact remains its not what the general player base wants and even if you enforce it on your own side they will get frustrated and go elsewhere.
Its happened time and time again, and it will continue to happen.

We didn't give them free stuff however so I'm intrigued as to which server you were referring to
Although i do remember many servers trying to hook players in with promises of 100k when they join etc.
Most of which are now no more.

But players have come to expect to be able to cry "admin" and have someone appear and fix their problems for them.

Its not up to the servers its up to the players. and until they want said change it will never happen as there will always be a server that does what you want to stop.

Its sad, unfortunate. But true. And alas no amount of posting on here will ever truly change the playerbase as 80% of them don't even look here again after they have downloaded the mod unless it is to update it.

Sad but again its just how things are.

 

[Erk]

It's no use, I've been arguing for less rules (and by extension, less intervention) for months here on the forums. Servers do whatever will get them the most players, and giving them free stuff and using admin powers at every slightest complaint makes them happy.

After some time, a general degradation of the gameplay occurs leading to a bunch of people trying to convince admins to ban their opposition.

Well we got fewer rules in Nexus, even though some of them did eventually come back. They do listen to us. (Or they did when they didn't have the huge playerbase they have now... :O).

Tbh in the end of the day it boils down to this,

Whilst it would be ideal to do this, it isn't what the player base wants. They are the consumers and we the providers.
Its not about what we want as owners its about what they want and what they have come to expect.

Well, I think that it could be tried. People got used to whining, but that doesn't mean that after some time they cannot get used to something else. I honestly think that if people understood that complains are going to be dealt with in FORUMS only and through a careful open review, they would be a lot less inclined to whine. Most of them rely on the fact that typing in admin chat RANDOMER! and interrupting unfairly a robbery for 15 minutes is pretty easy.

The whining in servers nowadays is absolutely unbearable. I have the impression that I need a law degree in whatever ruleset of the server I happen to be playing in. And then admin intervention in game is most of the times pretty bad. Time constraints, pressures from other work that needs to be done, etc.

I think it is strictly better to go with only forums and then only for MAJOR disruptions in game. Admins should be mostly invisible ingame, as opposed to now; they are the mischievous Greek gods of PW.

I have addressed in my post the possibility that people start breaking rules crazily. I don't think that would last more than a few days, when people would realize that an admin over the forums is actually a lot more effective at banning rulebreakers than any admin ingame, regardless of the quality.

 

[BernTheLost]

and i agree lol im not disagreeing im just saying that its the player base who wont respect that or utilize it, then they will go somewhere where they can cry "admiiin admiiin" lol

 

[Erk]

Never mind.  One cannot effectively change anything in PW without starting a server and committing to it.  Union was put together after I was fed up of the lack of innovation in RCC. Back then, RCC was "ruled" by a small group of people and in all honesty they had a hard time taking in feedback. I have come to realize that every server owner is under the impression that they have the "solution" for PW. However, their "solution" resembles suspiciously what other servers have previously done. This includes most scenes, admin management and rules. They tend to stick to their "solution" an actual innovation take a lot of time to get through, since server owners don't want to risk their playerbase.

Only new servers are willing to risk it, since they don't have playerbase anyway and maybe that crazy stubborn guy shouting in the forums will actually have a nice idea that will make the gameplay better. Then when they succeed, they grow fat and slow and renege from the initial intentions slowly to become yet another standard server.

So good luck with all these, you know where to find me if you actually want to try something a bit new.

 

[Dark_Hamlet]

This topic has been raised many times before... I've given up hope of a change already...

 

[Armie_knock]

. Then when they succeed, they grow fat and slow and renege from the initial intentions slowly to become yet another standard server.

*cough* Nexus *cough*

 

[S0mebody]

You have no idea how much I have had to say 'No' time and again for adding to the rules.

I have even had admins demanding extra rules, that we do not 'enforce RP' properly because our rule set does not demand it despite our having 'Roleplay' in our server name.

Yes we back slipped on the Metagaming rule and the war rule, it was just out and out anarchy with no defined war declaration rules. Largely due to disorganised factions being unprepared for an armed host in their property declaring war.

There are, it seems, 3 classes of players. And insufficient server types.
[list type=decimal]
[*]Roleplayers
[*]Native/TDM players
[*]Disruptive idiots
[/list]

The rules are really for the second group to set boundaries, and to remove the third group.

I favour the Forum only intervention idea, we do push a lot towards using our forums and there is quite a good take up.
Our logging of all hits helps massively, however it still does not give the full story of course.

It does give opportunity for a well considered verdict on incidents, with the evidence presented and discussed before judgement is made. Downside is many of the player base are not interested in extending their PW passion outside of the game engine, and are unlikely to participate. Until they find themselves log banned.

Personally I am still trying to drive for fewer rules, to simplify the rule set so it is less ambiguous, easier to understand for both players and staff, and easier to enforce.
This notion that it is possible to define a rule set that ensures only 'real' role playing will occur is quite frankly bonkers, it would have to be so complex and lengthy that no-one will read them, let alone comply, and handling complaints would take up most of the players and admins time.

I have even had an admin telling ME that the server name has 'Role Play' in it therefore 'or die' is fail RP, and have repeatedly reminded people (admins and players) that real muggers/robbers/bandits aren't going to engage you in conversation before they beat the crap out of you and steal your valuables.

Biggest issue is not the rules but rather the players themselves, co-operation amongst players is required and that is a Utopia unlikely to be realised with players coming from such diverse sources. Unless Clan members and organised. We are trying to encourage that on Nexus by creating Clan sub boards. But Forums are not everyone's cup of tea.

And Erk..
Off topic

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I was fed up of the lack of innovation in RCC. Back then, RCC was "ruled" by a small group of people and in all honesty they had a hard time taking in feedback.

So many holes in that statement. And I really thought you had got over that.

They took it in, you cannot state otherwise. Just because 'they' did not leap up and immediately apply YOUR feedback. Some of which was quite frankly impossible to do back then, due to intentional limitations within the PW code.
Lack of innovation - as in applying what the minority wanted over what the majority demanded?

/Off topic
I still like you though, you have some good thought provoking ideas

 

[Rasorath]

I think that the only way of reducing admin intervention is by removing the tools making it possible for the admins to intervene, not removing the in-game admin completely. That, or only having competent admins.

Before the administrator chat, admins would deal with things in public, by using the global chat or over a forum. Before Godlike and admin armour, admins would be indistinguishable from a player, and since they did not have the refill health tool, they did not have the possibility to gain a gameplay advantage solely because of being an admin. Before the teleport tool, admins were unable to stop a fight in progress. Before the admin horse, admins were unable to break immersion by running around at unachievable speeds.
Before all this, admins could kick, ban and bank if they wanted to. Before all this, admins could not intervene unless they had the grounds to kick or ban someone.

Though, this begs the question, if someone cannot use the tools made available to them correctly, why should they be in a position of power?

 

[Erk]

Thanks for the replies.

I am aware of the pressures to add rules. A lot of the people suggesting them do think they are going to make things better by it; my impression is that they tend to demand what they have seen while there were admins in the past, out of being used to it.

The inertia extends to players: people get used to being able to prepare for war and not have to worry about it, hence they get shaken in their comfortable coach if they have to adapt.

Ultimately, this inertia makes people whine at any change regardless of whether it is "good" or not. I say one needs to shake things becomes it is clear that there is a consensus that current gameplay is full of troubling situations.

1. Admins are too central to it:

Spoiler

with players turned into whining babies that cry for admin intervention constantly, not even bothering to read the server rules. In addition, adulation of admins is blatant and "petty politics" common place.

2. Faction gameplay is largely irrelevant and little more than TDM when it occurs

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: due to mechanics and scene design not favoring castle centered economies. The difference between a band of commoners on ts and a faction is strictly that the second group holds a castle and can have the opportunity to KoS (wars).

3. Lack of RP

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, even according to the lightest definition of it.

But innovation is very hard, I suppose that this is due to the stress of managing large servers and the fact when a server grows large a lot of the "inertia" described above is added to it. Furthermore, as a server grows, it starts "pulling" the discussions around changes to thier external forums, effectively becoming more endogamic in their idea generation (I do understand there are benefits to it, like the possibility to organize subforums, etc).


Regarding the forums suggestion here, I think that it can work. Sure, some players will have a hard time going to the forums (not used to it!) but eventually it has proven to be extremely valuable for community building to have people check the forums. They get hooked to it after the initial lack of interest. In addition, I think it can help with the whole "I wantz adminz to have powa to have people **** my ****". 

Then answering Rasorath: You make good points. However, don't you think that it is handy to have some admin in case say a Russian clan joins and mass randoms the entire server? Admin tools come handy to see that quickly. For everything else, I would say: "to the forums"! And end of the admins everywhere situation.


PS - My thoughts about RCC and the whole servers' story:

Spoiler

I still think that RCC got slow at changes. When RCC was created it aimed at changing the "bad habits" that United acquired. Yet, more and more rules were added to the server. In addition, there were the discussions about maps, with mappers being excessively found of "tradition" for my taste. I started the movement that eventually consolidated in Union just because I knew that in RCC I wouldn't be able to host an "experimental" map I had in mind with Blucher. Eventually Union overcame RCC. Union then grew fat and was taken over by "traditionalists" and Nexus came to shake it again. The question for me is if it will be the same now, Nexus acquiring bad "inertia" and the story starting all over again. I personally think it is such a waste. I appeal to you and Salva, S0mebody, to keep the innovations coming and avoid getting "old and conservative" with constant claims about how a server cannot enforce large changes quickly, etc. Splintert is a kid who knows PW and has already started a new server willing to experiment. I personally think you guys should incorporate him and have him disband his server. He is a very experienced mapper, which could also help.

PS - Clans as innovation in Nexus

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: I like the idea, even though it has an scary side: a new player without connections in the server being excessively bullied. Nevertheless, good work.

 

[Splintert]

I don't see how bringing every case to the forums is beneficial at all.. as Rasorath said, during the so-called "golden age of roleplay", admins had nothing but Kick, Ban, and global chat to do their business.

Bringing everything to the forum will just slow everything down and will create a ton of spam. Unban requests are already on the forum and create quite a bit of drama and bolshevism. Do you really think multiplying that by 100 will solve anything?

 

[Erk]

I disagree.  There seems to be a consensus on the fact that some "minimal" rules are to be enforced. The question is how.

Option 1:  Doing it in game.

- Leads to whining and arguing in game constantly, as opposed to playing.
- Admins need to make rushed decisions.
- Ample room for admin abuse, often covered with excuses like: "I had a lot of complaints, I had to be quick".
- Admins RP and admin with the same names, giving room to abuse of the position.
- Admins announcements constantly breaking immersion.


Option 2: Forums.

- You have to deal with any ingame situation without admin help (unless it is outrageous mass randoming by a clan, or something trully big and game breaking). This means that saying "wait I call admin you rulebreaker noob" won't get you out of your troubles.  Encourages RP and cuts admin dependence. Later on, if it was indeed a rulebreak, you may report it in the forums (if you feel it is worthwhile).
- Much better admin judgement and possibility to detect abuse.
- Allows for better organization of the handling of the complaints (for instance, 2 admins per case, anonymous judgement, hidden admin identity, allows to randomize which admin gets the case and many other things I can sketch to server owners interested in this).
- Easier to detect trolls and deal with them.

Given that some rules are to be enforced in a server, I find this a more efficient (time), fair and less immersion breaking way of doing it.

 

[Rasorath]

Then answering Rasorath: You make good points. However, don't you think that it is handy to have some admin in case say a Russian clan joins and mass randoms the entire server? Admin tools come handy to see that quickly.

Yes, and the tools he will need is the global chat, kick and ban.

 

[Erk]

Invisible and TP could be handy to be faster...

But in any case, if 99% of administration tasks are done in the forums, it is largely irrelevant what tools they have in game.

They wouldn't be using them anyway, right?

 

[Rasorath]

But in any case, if 99% of administration tasks are done in the forums, it is largely irrelevant what tools they have in game.

I think that would become a mess. I doubt any server has anyone in their administration that they feel they cannot even trust with being an administrative presence in game.



The way I see it, there are two ways of having a good administration:
1. Having capable administrators.
2. Forcing uncapable administrators into becoming capable by regulating them heavily.

Obviously, way number one is very ambitious and nearly impossible to achieve if you want the administrator presence that the players today are used to.

Way number two is what you're suggesting. But I would rather work towards a small but capable team of administrators than a big and team of uncapable administrators restricted so much that they aren't even trusted with playing logged in as an administrator.

 

[Erk]

I am concerned with the quality of admins, but my suggestion comes mainly from the constant whining I see in game.

Immersion is constantly broken by requests of admin intervention.

You can regulate as much as you want in forums; or not. This has nothing to do with the decision between forums and in-game. (It does in the sense that regulating in forums is easier, but that's it).

I do think that the judgments will improve (without changing the admin quality) if it is done in forums, though. There are very simple ways to avoid the mass discussions and dramas created in forums. Just don't let players post in public ban threads...or other ways. This is not a concern, I think.

 

[Rasorath]

Immersion is constantly broken by requests of admin intervention.

This will not stop, it doesn't matter what you do. If the admins are able to, because the mod mechanics allow it, they expect them to intervene.