Spear infantry vs Cavalry (and anything else)

[Yertyl]

So, today I noticed a weird thing while doing custom battle tests: Even against melee cavalry, spear infantry like the picked warrior and Vlandian swordsman seem to pretty consistently do worse than non-spear cavalry like the legionnaire or Khuzait spear infantry (despite the name, they only have javelins) against melee cavalry (and anything else) .
And I think I found the reason why:

This image is the result of 100 Khuzait lancers charging straight into a shield wall of 100 picked warriors. I count two horses that are spooked, but no horse or rider has been killed or dismounted.

The whole point of a spear is its range, specifically to hurt the enemy before he can hurt you. In close range, a spear is more hindrance than help compared to a shorter weapon -- that is true both in MB2 and in real life. If you cannot hurt an enemy before he gets in your face, a spear is pointless. And currently, any melee battle in MB2 seems to become a close range brawl -- is why I believe infantry with swords currently outperform spear infantry even against cavalry. And while it makes some sense that an infantry unit with a shield can...shield themselves while closing the distance to a spearman, it makes no sense that a horse can run straight into a shield wall without being even inconvenienced.

So could we please increase spear effectiveness vs mounted units?
In my opinion, a spear hit on a rider should have a much higher chance of dismounting them, and a spear hit on a horse should have a high chance of spooking the horse, and at least a low chance of dismounting the rider.

Spears are already a very bad infantry weapon against anything that is not mounted (in game, not IRL), and even versus mounted units they are of limited effectiveness unless the rider runs straight and frontally into the infantryman. But in that situation, a cavalry unit needs to really be punished, with a high chance of being killed or at least dismounted, if spears and pikes should ever have any use at all.

 

[Apocal]

Yeah, this has come up before but there are no plans to change the weapon balance. On the plus side, swords actually aren't the ideal anti-cav weapon -- swinging two-handed polearms are. Menavs, glaives, poleswords, warrazors, etc. will absolutely mulch cavalry that charge into them.

 

[Yertyl]

Yeah, this has come up before but there are no plans to change the weapon balance. On the plus side, swords actually aren't the ideal anti-cav weapon -- swinging two-handed polearms are. Menavs, glaives, poleswords, warrazors, etc. will absolutely mulch cavalry that charge into them.

Really? I mean, not only did spears dominate battlefields historically, they are also extremely abundant in MB2 -- a lot of infantry units have them.
Making them effectively pointless in any situation seems like a weird choice to me.

 

[Tercero]

Yeah, this has come up before but there are no plans to change the weapon balance. On the plus side, swords actually aren't the ideal anti-cav weapon -- swinging two-handed polearms are. Menavs, glaives, poleswords, warrazors, etc. will absolutely mulch cavalry that charge into them.

I havent played the last couple of version, but once you put many of these guys together they used to swing into eachother and become quite innefective

 

[Stromming]

Armagan works in mysterious ways

 

[Chad Thunderchicken]

I think the shield wall formation is broken in general, I have also noticed that charging into spearmen shieldwall does not kill any horsemen and the spearmen dont seem to attack at all, you can stand right next to them and they would simply not attack you. I think you are the commander of the spearmen yourself and put them in charge mode they should do a lot better. I think its a combination of many things that are broken, the AI being too dumb to issue charge command, the collision mechanics of zipping right through shieldwalls and the spears being bad in general.

 

[Stromming]

I think the shield wall formation is broken in general, I have also noticed that charging into spearmen shieldwall does not kill any horsemen and the spearmen dont seem to attack at all, you can stand right next to them and they would simply not attack you. I think you are the commander of the spearmen yourself and put them in charge mode they should do a lot better. I think its a combination of many things that are broken, the AI being too dumb to issue charge command, the collision mechanics of zipping right through shieldwalls and the spears being bad in general.

It's a shieldwall, not a spearwall.

 

[xDizzyBx]

There are a lot of weirds things in this game regarding combat (my main issue being cavalry charges). But let's remember this is still in EA, hopefully when the game is fully released we will have a much better experience. And even better yet, polished, finished, high quality mods.

 

[Zwade]

I'll test on custom battle tonight, but how about square to absorb the charge, then order f2 f1: form a line. Infantry doesn't fight to it's full offensive potential in shieldwall or square. I only use shieldwall to advance on archers/skirmishers or stand still in shieldwall to soak enemy fire while archers commence enfilading fire.
I will test tonight and post results.

 

[Apocal]

Really? I mean, not only did spears dominate battlefields historically, they are also extremely abundant in MB2 -- a lot of infantry units have them.
Making them effectively pointless in any situation seems like a weird choice to me.

FWIW, I don't think they intended this at all. It is just the interaction between reach, damage potential and thrusts being so much harder to land than swings.

I havent played the last couple of version, but once you put many of these guys together they used to swing into eachother and become quite innefective

They probably do, but I put them into Loose formation, so that hasn't happened to me in months.

 

[CaNpoG]

The way I would go about this is to make 2 handed spearmen (pikemen) brace their spears in shieldwall formation. Enemy cavalry riding into those pikes should die or at least get dismounted.
Also I would add a new feature: Spear bracing with spear and shield. The character (be it player or bot) would do a normal downblock with the shield and have the spear in front of them. The spear would do damage to any approaching units, and would push them back on hit. This would make it extremely good vs cav and holding the shieldwall.
If this was implemented, we could have the sword/axe infantry, who would be good for going at the enemy and hacking them to pieces in a less organised manner, and then the spearmen, who as a defensive unit would be able to hold the shield wall in a phalanx way more effectively against both cavalry and infantry.
I'm pretty sure this would not only make commanding troops much more enjoyable, but also playing spearman yourself.

 

[nyarlathotep1975]

brace is not yet implemented in the sp game. maybe next patch

 

[ratschbumm]

The character (be it player or bot) would do a normal downblock with the shield and have the spear in front of them. The spear would do damage to any approaching units, and would push them back on hit. This would make it extremely good vs cav and holding the shieldwall.

It will not be done before you are guaranteed your hard-earned t6 horseman will not ingloriously die just because they are stupid as firewood spearmen were closest, i. e. never.

 

[Lag'ier Barlida]

Tbh not a real problem consider how weak and expensive cavalries already are.........

 

[Bratok]

You guys don't know about the Realistic Battle Mod, don't you?

 

[Firunien]

The reason why spears suck is because the AI is really bad with them.

 

[Maximum997]

The reason why spears suck is because the AI is really bad with them.

Spears are crap even in players hands.

Polearms or swords\axes are far far better.

 

[Firunien]

Spears are crap even in players hands.

Polearms or swords\axes are far far better.

Nope they are not crap, super deadly in groupfights, at a disadvantage im 1v1 when getting face hugged.

 

[Abyssos]

again this talk??

 

[vonbalt]

It's a shieldwall, not a spearwall.

If you put your guys equipped with shields and spears into a shieldwall it becomes a spearwall that should be near impregnable to cavalry from the front unless they are heavily armored and with enough numbers to take the first impalement of the spears and keep pushing forward driving a wedge into the wall until it splits, shieldwalls weren't purely defensive formations like testudo, they were meant to defend and push at the same time with lots of angry dudes stabing and hacking their way forward while keeping their shields together for cohesion and added protection.

Shieldwall formation is basically broken right now, the AI performs too poorly without constant movement and shieldwall keeps them walking slowly and close together while the enemy simply charges and dance around the slow wall killing them all, spears are also garbage right now when they should dominate formation fighting in the game.