Skill Re-balancing Mod

[Earth Dragon]

I going to work on a mod that re-balances the Skill tree a bit and wanted to start a discussion on what people's general thoughts were. Please reference the OP and follow-up post for updates if coming in and out of the discussion.

The Skill Tree in Bannerlord is honestly pretty good. It does so much more right then it gets wrong. There is very little waste to the player when thematically using the character creator (I didn't say it kept you min/maxed. Just that there was little waste.), Party size increases are super vital and are spread all over the place, and all the roles (scout, QM, etc) have Perks littered about that make them specialized in different ways. But there are definitely some imbalances that I would love to address.

These are some major bullet points I would like to cover:

- Adjust Perks so that the top half (VIG, CON, and END) focus on quality of troop and the bottom half (CUN, SOC, and INT) focus on quantity. Stewardship and Medicine being associated with the same stat category but giving large boosts to quality and quantity throws the entire pool out of balance. Medicine's final skill will be replaced, and Armor, HP, and similar buffs will be sprinkled around the top half. There are plenty of thematic and legitimate ways to do this.

- Replace all the final weapon perks and give 2H a 275 perk. Most of them just essentially give you a "double" default bonus. That's not a lot of incentive to actually invest the needed stat and skill points into those categories to get there. If 2H gave you hardier infantry due to the type of person who would naturally sign up for one of the world's greatest battlefield terrors, there would be a solid reason to BE that terror.

- Bolster Blacksmithing with Quartermaster, Governor, Engineering, etc effects. Renowned smiths would have the "know how" and contacts to gain benefits. A governor could improve workshop productions (stolen from trade and replaced) and improve militia due to better equipment, and a quartermaster could potentially help re-place troop equipment while resting in town to some effect.

- Add Scout Bonuses to the Riding and Athletics tree. Scout is by far the skill with the least amount of supplemental help from other categories. I would like to change that. Riding in particular has an obvious spot where one could be added/stolen from the scout tree and replaced over there.

- Re-arrange Scout Skills (and others if needed) to ensure nothing is wasted during character creation. Scout is the most obvious offender in the "wasted skill" category. Most categories have a perk with each of the first two selections that would benefit the player. But if I choose an option that gives me a point in Cunning, that allows the first perk to unlock, it then leads to nothing when I level up scout as it's first perk selection only applies to if you are assigned as the scout. Since you can get the first perk with just a single added point to the stat category, and the first 2 with a single pip in that skill, I want to have a personal benefit as apart of a perk in those first two selection to eliminate that feeling of waste anywhere and allow players to make as many thematic choices as possible and not be push to min/max

- Get rid of the existence of any "no brainer" final perks. Leadership, Charm, Stewardship and (as already noted) Medicine all need some sort of adjustment. Leadership may be able to get toned down naturally by adding things to the Control and Vigor trees that offer alternatives in that "quantity versus quality" to where you'd rather get 275 perks there, as well as if Charm (which will likely get chopped in half) getting toned down, pulls you away from that being a "no brainer" stat line.

- Increase Some options to 3 where appropriate. There are instances where only two options doesn't fully make sense. The most obvious is on the Scout tree LVL 75 perk, you choose between Desert and Forest. A Third option (Snow at this stage, as that covers all other sections of the map) would allow for characters to pursue a theme. Having a Desert Born Sturgian because you want the Governor perk hurts theme.

- Create a companion mod that re-balances skill XP progression. I'll just mention this here, but I'm not looking to "speed up" the process for the speed runners. If anything, in a game with legacy options, some categories can be slowed down to where you are getting those 275 perks around the time you are hitting Clan Tier 6. But there needs to be more alternatives to leveling some skills and increases for companions in particular. Adding 1-3 categories each task/mission that gives you and your companions XP, getting tactics XP from playing board games, improving riding and athletics xp from moving around the map (probably by just checking the civilian slot and giving bonus XP as to how that is set up), decreasing charm XP for clan relation improvements, and decreasing "long bomb" hope I hit shots with bows and crossbows (to of course include the riding and athletics XP associated) would all be highlights.

Thanks for the feedback participation and again please reference the first couple posts in the future before jumping back in!!

 

[Earth Dragon]

1H:

2H: Add Lvl 275 Skill Strength attracts Strength - Clan Leader: Your fiefs have a 5% chance to spawn Veteran Militia. Party Leader: Increase Melee Troop HP by 1 for every 5 points above 240.

Polearm:

Bow:

X-bow:

Thrown:

Riding:

Athletics:

Blacksmith: Lvl 150 Vigorous Smith - Steal the 25% increase to Workshop production from Trade Perk (Mercenary Connections)

Scout: Add LVL 75 Skill (3 options) Winter Tracker - Scout: Reduce Snow penalty by 25% when following a hostile party. Governor: When covered in snow or during winter, governed fiefs provide 1 bonus food, and villages produce 1 meat per day.

Tactics:

Roguery:

Charm: Lvl 275 Immortal Charm - Change the Influence gain to 0.1 every point after 250. This spreads the boost out more, but effectively halves the overall bonus. Still exceptionally strong.

Leadership:

Trade: Lvl 150 Mercenary Connections - Move Workshop Production increase (Smithing) and replace with a ?% chance that militia spawn as a Tier 3 Mercenary (likely 3%, but I'm still a little confused how those percentage actually work for the Veterans, because with a 30% chance, you don't get 30% Militia Veterans)

Steward:

Medicine:

Engineering:

 

[sh1ny4]

You may want to put this thread more into the modding section but here are my takes on skills (bear in mind that I am much more into passive bonuses than what we have as perks, which in my opinion should bring real gameplay improvement instead of useless bonuses)

For the major changes,

• I think that skills should have two lines with different goals : one line for the combat effectiveness, one for the leadership/governor skills. for example, the level 200 skills in archery does not bring you anything, but to your party as a whole. If you don't want to lead parties but just want to play as a tournament champion it's useless. On the opposite side the companion you want as a governor as to go 50 levels into stewardship before being useful
• the final skills are fine for me except for one thing : the bonus gets points for levels that are under the level at which you get them. If we got them at low level they would be a proof of futur planning while bringing incremental buffs. If the starting level of the skill was at the level we get it then the progress would also be incremental. the 275 medecine perk's issue for me is much more how you get from good at 274 to godlike at 275 than it's power
• skills shouldn't need 10 attribute points but 7 at most, with 5 allowing to reach level 275, the rest being bonus to level skills significantly faster
• the pacing should be changed, too many skills grow very slowly, then you hit level 125/150 and they grow much faster all of a sudden (smithing, scouting, leadership)
• making the perks work (looking at you, Xbow level 275)
• some rebalance is due : high level athletics bring so little to speed, and I won't mention the speed we have when starting. level 100's speed is what we should have at level 0, same for polearm

On what I would suggest :

• to begin with, here is a list of perks that in my opinion give a meaningfull improvement :

​

Spoiler: spoiler

• One handed : basher, that makes shield bash a strong option
• Two handed : the shield breaker and arrow block skills
• Polearm :
• Bow : deep quivers & horse master
• Xbow : fletcher, mounted crossbowman
• Throwing : the shield breaking perks, the amunition increase, impale (funniest skill tbh)
• Riding : riding horde, breeder, mounted patrols,
• Athletics : braced & strong legs
• Smithing : never really used it
• Scouting : keen sight & vantage point
• Tactics : who ever leveled it outside of testing purposes ?
• Roguery : Partners in crime
• Charm : perks that remove needed success
• Leadership : Heroic Leader, veteran's respect, both level 250 perks
• Trade : never tried it
• Steward : the armor & weapon give XP perks
• Medicine : overall nice

​

​

• Considering an average of about 20 perks per skill it's so little it is sad. most of the perks could replaced by a passive "you shoot 0.5% faster/deal 0.5% more damage per level", or "you gain +1 party size/+1% chance to persuade/+1% benefits/ +2% viewrange every ten levels" and still feel more impactful.
• as for how to implement a passive maybe get a single perk at level 25, with effects similar to the level 275 ones but starting at lower level (and weaker to balance it)

to give an idea of what I mean by divding in two lines, here is a short idea, didn't think a lot about it so anything is up for debate and shouls be improved, if it is even possible to implement. I don't believe there is a need for a perk every 25 levels, let alone two. for example in what I say below throwing would get like 4 or 5 perks on the first line, and maybe 3 or 4 for the second line

​

Spoiler: spoiler

• one handed : perks related to shield bash, kicking, shield durability.
• Two Handed : perks about breaking shields, the arrow block but good, the knockdown, cutting through enemies
• Polearm : improvements on the bracing and the couching, with an ability to couch/brace every polearm at the top, as well as perks to cut through with swinging polearms
• Bow : perks to improve ammo count, use any on horse back, some armor penetration, passive about speed, accuracy and damage
• Xbow : same, as well as shield penetration ? passive about speed, accuracy and damage
• Throwing : ammo count, shield breaking, shield penetration passive about accuracy and range
• all of the above would get as a second line perks improving the training and relevant strenght of units
• Riding : breeding, map speed, finding horses on the map. second line gets improved speed and charge damage for troops, passive is improvement in speed and charge
• Athletics : perks about armor weight, HPs, resilience to fall and charge. second line gives speed and HPs to troops, passive is speed improvement, also for weapons
• Smithing : I don't know
• Scouting : passive about viewrange and speed, maybe one perk per environment type (plain>forest>snow>desert) to reduce the maluses, finding hideouts, infos on tracks, etc
• Tactics : passive improves damages, first line improves in battle with stronger shields, more ammo, higher damage, range and if possible AI difficulty, second line improves simulated battles
• Rogery : passive improves loot and raiding speed, bandit get to neutral then ally, can use non civilian weapons/armors, helps with barter
• Charm : passive helps with barter, first line is about relation (notable & nobles) and barter, second line is about renown and influence
• Leadership : passive increases party size, one line is dedicated to training (with the two nice steward skills), other is about morale & party size
• Trade : No idea, passive about income, maybe increasing the limit of caravans or workshop, second line about improving town Income
• Steward : one line is about leading armies, reducing food & cost, other is about governing, helping with loyalty & security
• Medicine : pasive improves regeneration and HPs, perks about survivability ? maybe line about governing & improving the growth
• Engineering : passive increases siege build speed, first line unlock siege equipment (balista, ram, catapult, siege tower,, fire version, trebuchet ?), second line improves building speed as governor

​

​

on easier to implement changes, moving around perks would be nice, ideally still splitting them in two lines doing different things, that way some bad high level skills get replaced by useful ones, and we can avoid having to choose between two useless skills and then two great skills at the next choice

​

I apologies for any mistake or nonsens, It's getting pretty late I'll look at it again tomorrow

 

[Earth Dragon]

I appreciate the comment @sh1ny4

The one thing I'll touch on is that I don't want to change it to where every governor that has 150 points in 1H and 100 points in Engineering is then the same. While it is of utmost importance that the first couple of perks selection offer something for everyone, having meaningful choices like whether you want more militia or a more affordable garrison is important as well. They both come with pluses and minuses, and allows you to create different types of Governors, such as one that focuses on as much loyalty as possible to take control of Towns not of your culture, one that focuses on raising as much militia as possible as fast as possible to slap in your newest border castle, and one that emphasizes security to allow for smaller garrisons and thus lower food costs.

 

[sh1ny4]

I appreciate the comment @sh1ny4

The one thing I'll touch on is that I don't want to change it to where every governor that has 150 points in 1H and 100 points in Engineering is then the same. While it is of utmost importance that the first couple of perks selection offer something for everyone, having meaningful choices like whether you want more militia or a more affordable garrison is important as well. They both come with pluses and minuses, and allows you to create different types of Governors, such as one that focuses on as much loyalty as possible to take control of Towns not of your culture, one that focuses on raising as much militia as possible as fast as possible to slap in your newest border castle, and one that emphasizes security to allow for smaller garrisons and thus lower food costs.

Well while I would like to build different governors like that I would much prefer having perks related to their skill. I don't see why me reaching a high level of one handed would reduce the wage of garrisoned troops for example.
Ideally we would be able to add new skills like training or governing but seeing other modding complaints I highly doubt it is possible

how about the leadership perks become about : first line is the party (training, size, morale), second line is governor related but focus on garrison (cheaper, trains faster, more security, maybe a perk that allows for troop wage to be that of troops one tier lower ?) that way in the governor perk's second line won't affect garrison but instead more militia focused. more militia growth, higher tier militia, increase in loyalty perks.
that way you can play with two governord, one to stabilize a town/ castle that you then replace by one that if there for longer. And since you only spent points in one skill for this you can grow other skills on the side to have them useful for something else, like battle skills.

for example to stabilize you have one that maxxes out tactics, steward and engineering first line (as it is likely to be on the front line), that you then replace by an other governor that maxes out trade, medicine, leadership and engineering second line. But you still can use the former governor as he has a high skill in tactics he can lead another party, and has room to level a battle skill

 

[Earth Dragon]

So in your Leadership example above, that is where I would split more militia with cheaper garrison if I chose to move around that much. (I'm well aware that the less I change, the less maintenance I need to do if Taleworld's changes something. But that may not be as big of a deal as I'm thinking). I only used 1H as I know it has some Governor conflicts already that seemed reasonable, notably the one at 50 where they are both personal buffs for weapons with a Governor side benefit. That's the kind of stuff and choices I would like to keep, though numbers may need to be adjusted.

I view reduced wages as a sign that soldiers or certain types of soldiers are either A) more willing to work for that individual due to their allure (which could be the ability to learn a lot from one of the world's greatest fighters) or B) they offer the soldiers other ways to earn money that doesn't come directly from your pocket, I suppose similar to the tipping system in the US. So there are ways to make sense out of the top half of the tree increasing quantity (which includes reducing the wages), but as I stated in the OP, I am 100% for having more quantity perks in the bottom half and more quality perks in the top half in general. So Leadership would be where more size increases will show up and 1H will be were more troop improvements show up.

I'm undecided if I want to also differentiate between wages/upgrade costs/hiring costs/XP gain. Those seem much more nuanced as to what would cause all of those things to happen, so pinpointing where they should be more prevalent would be a little more difficult and forced, but I am open to suggestions.

 

[sh1ny4]

So in your Leadership example above, that is where I would split more militia with cheaper garrison if I chose to move around that much. (I'm well aware that the less I change, the less maintenance I need to do if Taleworld's changes something. But that may not be as big of a deal as I'm thinking). I only used 1H as I know it has some Governor conflicts already that seemed reasonable, notably the one at 50 where they are both personal buffs for weapons with a Governor side benefit. That's the kind of stuff and choices I would like to keep, though numbers may need to be adjusted.

I'm undecided if I want to also differentiate between wages/upgrade costs/hiring costs/XP gain. Those seem much more nuanced as to what would cause all of those things to happen, so pinpointing where they should be more prevalent would be a little more difficult and forced, but I am open to suggestions.

I think that what you want to do would imply having to do it the same way as TW, or it would require to add other skills if you want to keep the perks related to the skill they are in
there is a limit to how much you can do with one handed weapons afterall, while you have many more options on how to manage your towns. sadly this would mean that you will heavily modify the system that is already buggy enough

I view reduced wages as a sign that soldiers or certain types of soldiers are either A) more willing to work for that individual due to their allure (which could be the ability to learn a lot from one of the world's greatest fighters) or B) they offer the soldiers other ways to earn money that doesn't come directly from your pocket, I suppose similar to the tipping system in the US. So there are ways to make sense out of the top half of the tree increasing quantity (which includes reducing the wages), but as I stated in the OP, I am 100% for having more quantity perks in the bottom half and more quality perks in the top half in general. So Leadership would be where more size increases will show up and 1H will be were more troop improvements show up.

well it could also be seen as them thinking that they have less chances of dying if with you, so it's fine if they get paid less, or you no longer needing to pay an (imaginary) staff to do it for you. Maybe even them having the right to take some loot.

 

[Clsy]

the greatest skill re balance mod i would want is the one that will remove all perks
seriously who thinks that is a good idea

 

[Earth Dragon]

the greatest skill re balance mod i would want is the one that will remove all perks
seriously who thinks that is a good idea

On one hand I understand the take, on the other I see it as massively limiting to personalizing a character.

Some of the best parts of the Perk choices is when is says "Would you like +1 Companions, allowing you to more effectively govern your fiefs and create caravans, or would you like +1 Party, sacrificing one of those caravans you already have for a larger fighting force." If not on the character, those choices would need to come somewhere. And while I am 100% percent in favor of giving Clans perks and progression trees (which I will look into if this project goes well) I'd rather have it in addition to, not instead of

The game could use more choices like this, not less. Disabling all perks could actually have the opposite effect and just make build X the clear cut best, because now there aren't competitive party size increases down the 1H line to make it justifiable (Which admittedly are mostly going to be shifted to perks that make your troops stronger or their wages lower).

I think that what you want to do would imply having to do it the same way as TW, or it would require to add other skills if you want to keep the perks related to the skill they are in
there is a limit to how much you can do with one handed weapons afterall, while you have many more options on how to manage your towns. sadly this would mean that you will heavily modify the system that is already buggy enough


well it could also be seen as them thinking that they have less chances of dying if with you, so it's fine if they get paid less, or you no longer needing to pay an (imaginary) staff to do it for you. Maybe even them having the right to take some loot.

That's a solid point about the "staff". There are plenty of non-combatants and attendants that would traveling around with you. Putting in notions to that would be of a great benefit. No different to the fact that "someone" is governing and collecting those taxes if you don't assign someone from your inner circle, the game just doesn't due a good job of representing that. Hopefully if anyone makes a mod to where Villages, Castles, and Towns have default redobable missions available, they think to put in a stand-in governor contact if there isn't a body assigned.

 

[Clsy]

imo the effort to make and balance just doesn't worth it, making every skills work perfect is fairy tale but making everything sucks works. unlinking perks & skill would simplify that system, making every tweak could be done within seconds.
upgrading party/clan doesn't have to be integrated into perks, for example a independent system like build a stronghold/base inside cities that you can upgrade with would simply works exactly the same but now player would have much higher freedom and maker could only need to change one thing at a time. let alone things that could be added after unlike the dead locked perk&skill system right now.

if you want better damage, upgrade the weapon
want better party, upgrade the party
want better clan, upgrade the clan
not like this ****ty system blending every single possible **** together and only end up making one giant ****

cool that you have this passion try making it work but i see no future for it.