Seiges, the meat grinder of M&B.

[Oyclo]

I just had one of those fights which really show the weakness of M&B when it comes to sieges.

One of my castles is under siege and by the time I get there, there are 605 Rhodoks.  They chase me and I do the end around to get into the castle and let the siege begin. 

Thats issue one, you should be forced to fight your way in, they shouldn't go chasing you if you move faster.

So my 100 mostly maximally upgraded troops go against 605 Rhodoks, who had a huge number of sharpshooters and sergeants.

You can guess the outcome if you have played this before.

600 dead Rhodoks, 10 dead for me (and of those 10, 5 were the very low level garrison troops).

They simply send their men up into the meat grinder, up one ladder, slowly.  I'm going to guess I could have done it with 30, and I would have had less dead if a pathfinding issue didn't leave a big opening at the ladder half way through the fight.  Plus a lot of my men got stuck on other parts of the castle.

This is one of those things that really needs to be fixed for a M&B 2.  Multiple ladders, towers, and more realistic siege options.  Really there is nothing wrong with 100 men holding a castle from 600, thats why they built castles in the first place, but there needs to be more options beyond 'meat grinder of death' and an enemy that doesn't understand to pull back when its looking hopeless.

 

[*Hakim*]

Well good victory! Personally i don't think 100 could hold against 600...mind you 300 agains a million, in any case i would have to agree...

I would think there would have to be a balance between not only seiges but on the feild as well! But also remember...what is you difficulty set at? That could be a huge thing too...

 

[Oyclo]

Well good victory! Personally i don't think 100 could hold against 600...mind you 300 agains a million, in any case i would have to agree...

I would think there would have to be a balance between not only seiges but on the feild as well! But also remember...what is you difficulty set at? That could be a huge thing too...

Good AI, normal damage.

They just did it again too 400 vrs 110, I lost ten, they lost 390. 

I also fixed the pathfinding issue by accidentally having the archers advance 10 paces, so that closed the gap.

I just don't think there is any force thats going to cut through 20 huscarls and 30 odd knights at the top of a single ladder.

 

[MisterBarca]

I just had one of those fights which really show the weakness of M&B when it comes to sieges.

One of my castles is under siege and by the time I get there, there are 605 Rhodoks.  They chase me and I do the end around to get into the castle and let the siege begin. 

Thats issue one, you should be forced to fight your way in, they shouldn't go chasing you if you move faster.

So my 100 mostly maximally upgraded troops go against 605 Rhodoks, who had a huge number of sharpshooters and sergeants.

You can guess the outcome if you have played this before.

600 dead Rhodoks, 10 dead for me (and of those 10, 5 were the very low level garrison troops).

They simply send their men up into the meat grinder, up one ladder, slowly.  I'm going to guess I could have done it with 30, and I would have had less dead if a pathfinding issue didn't leave a big opening at the ladder half way through the fight.  Plus a lot of my men got stuck on other parts of the castle.

This is one of those things that really needs to be fixed for a M&B 2.  Multiple ladders, towers, and more realistic siege options.  Really there is nothing wrong with 100 men holding a castle from 600, thats why they built castles in the first place, but there needs to be more options beyond 'meat grinder of death' and an enemy that doesn't understand to pull back when its looking hopeless.

I agree. There ought to be at least two ladders or towers. I know it's a different type of game, but I think Age of Wonders II addressed this problem from its original version by creating--I think--4 gates, instead of the original 1.

 

[MisterBarca]

Well good victory! Personally i don't think 100 could hold against 600...mind you 300 agains a million, in any case i would have to agree...

I would think there would have to be a balance between not only seiges but on the feild as well! But also remember...what is you difficulty set at? That could be a huge thing too...

Good AI, normal damage.

They just did it again too 400 vrs 110, I lost ten, they lost 390. 

I also fixed the pathfinding issue by accidentally having the archers advance 10 paces, so that closed the gap.

I just don't think there is any force thats going to cut through 20 huscarls and 30 odd knights at the top of a single ladder.

By the way, have you tried the option of having a huge mob of crossbow shooters and then not go up the ladder until all the crossbow guys have exhausted their ammunition? I haven't tried this, because 1) I don't like to use anything but heavy cavalry , and 2) that would take too long for my short fuse of a temper!

But I assume this could be one way where the attacker may address the tremendous disadvantage it has in castle siege.

 

[MisterBarca]

By the way, I sometimes not lose any troops against 1000-plus besiegers without cheating. If you can get an extremely high level melee character and sit him at the edge of the wall opening (where the opponents coming into the wall opening would have a hard time getting at him) and hack away, you can almost come unscathed and kill hundreds. I am also going to try the Inventory tweak now, as I assume having dozens of bow quivers may also let you kill hundreds without coming to harm at all--again, if you position yourself properly. It's too bad that the AI can't replicate these results, and the player doesn't suffer as much difficulty overcoming castles.

 

[Oyclo]

Well good victory! Personally i don't think 100 could hold against 600...mind you 300 agains a million, in any case i would have to agree...

I would think there would have to be a balance between not only seiges but on the feild as well! But also remember...what is you difficulty set at? That could be a huge thing too...

Good AI, normal damage.

They just did it again too 400 vrs 110, I lost ten, they lost 390. 

I also fixed the pathfinding issue by accidentally having the archers advance 10 paces, so that closed the gap.

I just don't think there is any force thats going to cut through 20 huscarls and 30 odd knights at the top of a single ladder.

By the way, have you tried the option of having a huge mob of crossbow shooters and then not go up the ladder until all the crossbow guys have exhausted their ammunition? I haven't tried this, because 1) I don't like to use anything but heavy cavalry , and 2) that would take too long for my short fuse of a temper!

But I assume this could be one way where the attacker may address the tremendous disadvantage it has in castle siege.

Well being I hate sending expensive troops to a pointless death I did that my last siege with Rhodok sharpshooters and assorted other archers.  It worked very well.

Interestingly they were picking off enemy archers left and right yet I couldn't hit one at the same distance/angle.  I tried with a warbow and a siege crossbow.  I'm guessing the AI gets a little help there.

 

[MisterBarca]

Interestingly they were picking off enemy archers left and right yet I couldn't hit one at the same distance/angle.  I tried with a warbow and a siege crossbow.  I'm guessing the AI gets a little help there.

This may be an issue with your Draw Power. Also, are you aiming slightly above the head of the troops? If you aim directly at the troops standing in the castle (esp. at chest or below), your arrows will most likely bounce off the wall. You have to aim higher

 

[Oyclo]

Interestingly they were picking off enemy archers left and right yet I couldn't hit one at the same distance/angle.  I tried with a warbow and a siege crossbow.  I'm guessing the AI gets a little help there.

This may be an issue with your Draw Power. Also, are you aiming slightly above the head of the troops? If you aim directly at the troops standing in the castle (esp. at chest or below), your arrows will most likely bounce off the wall. You have to aim higher

I know how to use a bow

I'll add that Rhodok sharpshooters have a draw power of 0.  I've seen people relate draw power and crossbows, but I don't think they have any effect on each other, nor should they if you think about it.

 

[Sayyan]

On the other side of the coin, does anyone know if you can do anything about losing men during the crawling towers? While the siege tower moves forward, my men just stand in a nice line,  I had quite a number of troops without shields, my best troops (two handers) and they all ended up dead before the siege had even begun. Movement commands like Hold this Position and Follow Me don't work, they just prefer to stand out in the open rather than in cover.

 

[tommylaw]

i find the main problem is that theres only one place for the defender to stake out and kill the assaulting army one by one

 

[Oyclo]

On the other side of the coin, does anyone know if you can do anything about losing men during the crawling towers? While the siege tower moves forward, my men just stand in a nice line,  I had quite a number of troops without shields, my best troops (two handers) and they all ended up dead before the siege had even begun. Movement commands like Hold this Position and Follow Me don't work, they just prefer to stand out in the open rather than in cover.

Far as I can tell you need to suck it up until the tower gets there.

Then you can order them to move around.

I found this flaw the other day as well but luckily most of my men have shields.

 

[Lionheart X]

i find the main problem is that theres only one place for the defender to stake out and kill the assaulting army one by one

Hmmm yes, it would be great if the ememy say attacked from 3 sides, meaning that you would have to split your forces and thus reinforce the troops if they were under attack in another part of the castle, ahhhh just another dream for M&B 2 eh?!

 

[Ringwraith #5]

i find the main problem is that theres only one place for the defender to stake out and kill the assaulting army one by one

Hmmm yes, it would be great if the ememy say attacked from 3 sides, meaning that you would have to split your forces and thus reinforce the troops if they were under attack in another part of the castle, ahhhh just another dream for M&B 2 eh?!

Or you could retreat into a tower with a narrow door and thus easily create a single chokepoint again. I often end up doing just that in the castles where the breach in the wall is too large. See, that's the main part of the problem as far as I can tell - it's not the enemy soldiers who block the passage of the attackers and make the Conveyor Belt of Death grind to a halt, it's the fact that the idiotic AI is unable to find its way through the gap between the merlons and gets stuck. On castles where there's an actual breach at the top the attackers have a lot easier time of it.

 

[Swadius 2.0]

Interestingly they were picking off enemy archers left and right yet I couldn't hit one at the same distance/angle.  I tried with a warbow and a siege crossbow.  I'm guessing the AI gets a little help there.

This may be an issue with your Draw Power. Also, are you aiming slightly above the head of the troops? If you aim directly at the troops standing in the castle (esp. at chest or below), your arrows will most likely bounce off the wall. You have to aim higher

I know how to use a bow

I'll add that Rhodok sharpshooters have a draw power of 0.  I've seen people relate draw power and crossbows, but I don't think they have any effect on each other, nor should they if you think about it.

That's correct, powerdraw does not effect crossbows; only proficiency does, and to a certain extent strength for the usage. It's the weapon you would use if you want to save points on power draw and horse archery.

 

[Theralina]

if your looking for a game with some of the most bad ass siege fights, play medieval 2 total war. Large Scale, AI usually never attacks a city unless they have 1000+ men, and they usually bring siege weapons...such as trebuchets, catapults, and later in the game, cannons and monitors. In Sieges you will see your beautiful city ripped apart by your enemies weapons of destruction, including the walls, and this either sends your men running to the town center, or gives them even more will to stop them, so if you want amazing siege fights...get medieval two total war

 

[Oyclo]

if your looking for a game with some of the most bad ass siege fights, play medieval 2 total war. Large Scale, AI usually never attacks a city unless they have 1000+ men, and they usually bring siege weapons...such as trebuchets, catapults, and later in the game, cannons and monitors. In Sieges you will see your beautiful city ripped apart by your enemies weapons of destruction, including the walls, and this either sends your men running to the town center, or gives them even more will to stop them, so if you want amazing siege fights...get medieval two total war

Have they improved the AI from the first few?  Always a beautiful game, but wonky AI.

 

[Ringwraith #5]

Have they improved the AI from the first few?  Always a beautiful game, but wonky AI.

No. It's basically a total conversion of RTW, to the point that the config files show switches for the Marian reforms etc. They're turned off, btw. Haven't really had the courage to turn them on and see what happens. As far as I can tell, the only thing Creative Assembly did was redress RTW into a medieval look, the AI is still as moronic as ever.
Ironically, I think the best AI of the TW series was in the first MTW. I recently tried it again, just for kicks, and got my ass handed to me, big time. I deployed my guys in my standard battle line that has served me so well in RTW and MTW2, but instead of rushing blindly forward and letting himself get pinned by infantry and torn to pieces by cavalry the computer halted a ways off, just ouside of my archers' range, and tried to flank me with a bunch of heavy cavalry units. That's something it never ever does in RTW and it caught me totally off balance. I tried to adjust my formation but the computer kept stubbornly positioning his knights against my weak spots until he completely disrupted my line before he even began his attack. I have to say that if there's one thing better in MTW than MTW2, it's got to be the AI (well, that, and the ability to force princesses to marry their brothers ).

 

[*Hakim*]

Well good victory! Personally i don't think 100 could hold against 600...mind you 300 agains a million, in any case i would have to agree...

I would think there would have to be a balance between not only seiges but on the feild as well! But also remember...what is you difficulty set at? That could be a huge thing too...

Good AI, normal damage.

They just did it again too 400 vrs 110, I lost ten, they lost 390. 

I also fixed the pathfinding issue by accidentally having the archers advance 10 paces, so that closed the gap.

I just don't think there is any force thats going to cut through 20 huscarls and 30 odd knights at the top of a single ladder.

By the way, have you tried the option of having a huge mob of crossbow shooters and then not go up the ladder until all the crossbow guys have exhausted their ammunition? I haven't tried this, because 1) I don't like to use anything but heavy cavalry , and 2) that would take too long for my short fuse of a temper!

But I assume this could be one way where the attacker may address the tremendous disadvantage it has in castle siege.

Well being I hate sending expensive troops to a pointless death I did that my last siege with Rhodok sharpshooters and assorted other archers.  It worked very well.

Interestingly they were picking off enemy archers left and right yet I couldn't hit one at the same distance/angle.  I tried with a warbow and a siege crossbow.  I'm guessing the AI gets a little help there.

Well than your right...its the game play, its a downer i understand, but with a seige, you would have to have a large amount of soldiers to break a siege, or its basically water on rock...still i think they should know when a fight is not good and retreat, but thats also a down side of Player vs AI, Ai really don't have the same intellect as A human player (as we try to reserve soldiers as much as possible) they however don't give

 

[kazuma]

Shooting guys on the wall isn't hard, you just have to pay attention to where your arrow lobs to.  If your cross hairs are focused, it should be super simple.  Might take a 5 sighting rounds before you get your gravity offset right. 



I'd be getting Medieval Total War 2 if I heard that the AI improved upon Rome.  Rome was a super game, my only complaint is that the AI has to money/troop cheat on hard/hardest settings in order to keep up with you.  I'd get the game right now if Hardest Settings didn't have AI cheats.