Scene Development

[MihailoSRB]

Ahhh, I was unsatisfied with the view I got when entering Mercenary camp South/West/East. All I could see was a normal village. There had to be more! So I packed my hammer, shovel and tents and started digging (still lots of work to do).
Just wanted to give you a sneak preview.

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Оh, yes, yes, yes!
I never thought I would be excited to see a new ''village'' scene.
I was always bothered with merc camps looking just like ordinary villages, but thanks to you, it will change.
Great job!

 

[quapitty]

My pleasure. I know you are a fan of pirates! 
AI Mesh is a pain in the * but almost finished

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[eatme]

looking awesome! (as expected=)

 

[Tsewe]

really nice work, as usual

 

[stevehoos]

I started working on some scenes for the 1257 mod, but now it appears that the mod will be closed for any further development. I probably used some 1257 models on this unfinished map of Jerusalem (still working on it), so you all probably would not be able to use it? Warning, There may be some historical inaccuracies, as it is my first time messing in the editor, so I don't know exactly what I am doing? I am not sure how the FPS would deal with a map of this scale? The AI m mesh stuff looks ruff, I have yet to fiddle with that. Maybe you all could use some help though?

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[quapitty]

I'd say help is always very welcome. Thanks for your offer! It'll take a while til the mod reaches Jerusalem so you can take your time. I'd even suggest to take your time. Especially with the AI mesh. It really sucks if there is something wrong. One important thing: 1257 uses some plants that don't exist in E1200 (and some building props have different names). You'll have to slightly rework the ones you have I guess. Just test it in E1200 and you'll see. Don't get confused if testing your scene within E1200 - right now the entry points and passages are mixed up (doors won't work correctly) but that is fixed for the next release. So use the common known entries and passages. If you have questions go ahead - I am happy to help. And if I may suggest, you could take a look at a little collection I made that might be usefull:
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,200478.0.html

Another thing: If you want to make Jerusalem it would mean you'd have to work as historical as possible. I tried that with Bremen, Nürnberg and Würzburg. But as the mod grows, I decided to work on placeholders. So it would be cool if you could do a town scene that would fit for several cities in the area.
Good luck!

 

[stevehoos]

This is the map I was using (thanks to Gaxleep) wonder if I should just copy this map to get the basic structure of the city? I know it's an older version of the town, but it might be easier this way. What do you think? Might also work good for a scene for multiple cities like you say.

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This map is good too

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If I was doing a map to fit other cities as well as Jerusalem, should I exclude things like the dome of the rock? I think it might be best for me to start over on this.

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[quapitty]

It is up to you whether you want to work on a unique scene or a placeholder. Jerusalem is one city that would deserve a unique scene for sure. The maps are very good. Just try to give the impression of a huge town. But also try to limit the space for the player and NPCs. Otherwise the AI mesh might cause crashes. Especially to weaker machines. So the trick is to make the city look big and alive from the player's perspective. You can block some roads with barrels or carts or doors and save performance. Don't become too greedy to build a real copy of Jerusalem. You'll only become frustrated if other people can't play your scene or maybe even your machine cannot handle it after you spent 100 hours... A good scene doesn't have to be as big as possible, it has to be clever made.
If you want to do a placeholder (excuse the term) it is good to leave some unique landmars a side of course.

 

[NikeBG]

Btw, guys (especially quapitty, Tsewe, Al Mansur and the others), what do you think about these two reconstructions of towers in Tarnovo? They look somewhat strange to me, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe it's just the contrast? Or the proportions?

 

[quapitty]

Well, I don't know. But You are right with the proportions. I'd say it looks like they put something on an existing tower - which might be just what happened also in the past. But why are they plastered? And why do they have windows instead of arrow loops (or are they supposed to be arrow loops?)? Do you know which time this reconstruction claims to imitate? On the other hand it looks like a logical improvement on an existing tower. And they might be plastered because the walls are not made of stone but of mud or clay, which is also cheaper and lighter. Therefore they have the wooden beams. It even looks to me like a further development of an ancient roman tower (with some imagination).
http://www.miniatures.de/ancients-2-roman-watch-tower-3-26.html

Sorry for answering my own questions... 

 

[stevehoos]

@ quapitty; couple of questions:

1. How do I add a new siege scene for my all ready existing scene? This map is so big that it will have trouble with a siege.  I read the directions and failed to understand how to do this? I want a smaller siege scene. 

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2. Would it be possible for me to copy only a part of the front walls of my town scene and use it for the siege scene?

3. I was thinking I should go ahead and finish this scene for 1257 even if I am the only one that gets to play it .... After I am done with that which should not be much longer, I can work on something for you guys. You would prefer a generic map for a middle East location instead of a custom map? Just tell me what you want done. I understand everything in the editor, it's just some of the other stuff I don't have a grasp on yet. Such as getting my multiplayer map into single play and testing it. I had trouble with 1257's files as they were different than native.   

4. How long does it take you usually to do a scene?   

 

[NikeBG]

Do you know which time this reconstruction claims to imitate?

It's Tarnovgrad, so 13th-14th c.

Well, I don't know. But You are right with the proportions. I'd say it looks like they put something on an existing tower - which might be just what happened also in the past. But why are they plastered? And why do they have windows instead of arrow loops (or are they supposed to be arrow loops?)? ... And they might be plastered because the walls are not made of stone but of mud or clay, which is also cheaper and lighter. Therefore they have the wooden beams.

Yeah, that's one of the reasons why I ask - I can understand why they look so white (whitewash - a common "desinfection and refreshment paint" until very recently ago; though I wouldn't want to be the one hanging there and whitewashing those walls ), but it looks very similar to a Bulgarian Revival house (which became very popular across the Ottoman Empire, though the roots of that type of building are said to be from Byzantine times). Though, indeed, why windows instead of arrow slits? Maybe it's supposed to be a "housing" part for the tower garrison? Or in the case of the Patriarchate (my second pic) - normal monk cells, kinda like these two houses-on-walls? Anyway, it confuses me particularly for the battle towers - whitewash can't be used on stone or even wood, so the walls would indeed have to be made of (or covered with) some kind of plaster, which would make them much more easily destroyable by enemy siege weapons (though at least they should stop most arrows). Similar tower-tops are made by the same guys (and another by other guys) also for the royal palace in Tarnovo, though these ones are rather wooden. A similar case they've also made for Lovech and again wooden in Kaliakra. Though both on Kaliakra and on this pic of Cherven (including this wider plan of it made by other guys) we can see roofed/enclosed towers made only out of stone. So I'm wondering could there be any advantage of having such light-weight structures as tops (similar wooden cases can be seen also in M&B), besides being cheaper and easier to build and repair? Maybe another stone-floor would get too heavy and crumble the towers, while this lighter structure can at least offer an additional advantage in height? And is there any advantage of having closed tower-tops in general (f.e. all examples on these fortress plans are open-roofed)? Opened ones can be used for stationing defensive siege weapons, while the closed ones give better protection to the troops against arrows maybe?

Btw, what do you guys think of a placeholder scene loosely based on Kaliakra here (the one in the left)? Some docks here and there, some suburbs and an ever narrowing town/castle with the lord's keep at the nose of the cape. I'm sure there'd be at least a handful of guys who'd climb to the top and try to make a Titanic pose.

 

[quapitty]

@ quapitty; couple of questions:

1.

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How do I add a new siege scene for my all ready existing scene? This map is so big that it will have trouble with a siege.  I read the directions and failed to understand how to do this? I want a smaller siege scene. 

Working with a town scene means you have to / can make a completely new scene (as for castle scenes there is no such possibility!)
Which leads to:

2.

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Would it be possible for me to copy only a part of the front walls of my town scene and use it for the siege scene?

There is no such thing as copy and paste in the editor. I'd just copy the finished (!) 'normal' scene and rename it to "_walls.sco". Then you can simply delete all scene props you don't need (multiple selection is possible) and also AI-mesh. There would also be the possibility to make the whole map smaller. But that would mean you'll have to adjust the terrain manually afterwards I guess.

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I was thinking I should go ahead and finish this scene for 1257 even if I am the only one that gets to play it .... After I am done with that which should not be much longer, I can work on something for you guys. You would prefer a generic map for a middle East location instead of a custom map? Just tell me what you want done. I understand everything in the editor, it's just some of the other stuff I don't have a grasp on yet. Such as getting my multiplayer map into single play and testing it. I had trouble with 1257's files as they were different than native.   

I think DrTomas may have changed something about 1257 scene mechanics as he implemented some nice development possibilities. But I don't have a clue of such things. But importing multiplayer maps to singleplayer would just mean you'll have to change entry points and maybe passages, I'd think (and rename the file of course). Though I have never tried it. Would be interesting to know.
As I said it is up to you which scene you'd like to create. But I'd say it would have a greater effect for the mod if you'd create a generic map. This way also more players will have the pleasure to encounter your work.

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How long does it take you usually to do a scene? 

That depends on the trouble I have with my girl friend. 
Seriously, I don't really know. I am just working on it step by step. And sometimes it has to rest for a while as some other stuff that is vital for my life gets in its way. It also depends on the details you ad and wheter you are trying to make a historic copy. Town scenes are definitely the biggest time eater. And for me creating the AI-mesh is the biggest pain and very time consuming. So - I don't know but I guess it is pretty easy to spend at least 20 hours. But I guess I also spent much more...

Btw, what do you guys think of a placeholder scene loosely based on Kaliakra here (the one in the left)? Some docks here and there, some suburbs and an ever narrowing town/castle with the lord's keep at the nose of the cape. I'm sure there'd be at least a handful of guys who'd climb to the top and try to make a Titanic pose.

Sure very nice setting! But first I wanted to do a generic 'Russian' scene to be honest. I'd love to do so many scenes, but there are other things I am getting paid for. And unfortunately I need the f* money. 
Scening is very, very time consuming. But it is cool to have these kind of maps. Thanks for bringing it up! And maybe stevehoos has already been searching for a second inspiration after finishing a generic middle east town... 

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By the way - If I may say so: I think your scene is a bit too square. I mean the walls are very square. Usually walls were not like that, it's a very modern perception. You can also see it in the very nice map you posted. Just my perception... 

 

[stevehoos]

You are right, the walls are a bit too square. I will add a few bends and turns to make it more like the map I was looking at when I started.  .

How about this? I Just messed with the walls in front left.

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[NikeBG]

Btw, what do you guys think of a placeholder scene loosely based on Kaliakra here (the one in the left)? Some docks here and there, some suburbs and an ever narrowing town/castle with the lord's keep at the nose of the cape. I'm sure there'd be at least a handful of guys who'd climb to the top and try to make a Titanic pose.

Sure very nice setting! But first I wanted to do a generic 'Russian' scene to be honest. I'd love to do so many scenes, but there are other things I am getting paid for. And unfortunately I need the f* money. 
Scening is very, very time consuming. But it is cool to have these kind of maps. Thanks for bringing it up! And maybe stevehoos has already been searching for a second inspiration after finishing a generic middle east town... 

Of course, of course! I'm not saying that you should do it now (slave) - I'm just throwing it as a potential, eventually cool idea. A Russian scene is indeed very nice and welcomed (gotta looove those wooden towers), especially with the coming appearance of the Russian factions.

 

[Cuthalion]

Since the suggestion came to drop some files about the Citadel of Masyaf, I'll give you some images:

1. Floor plan (from the Eagle's Nest book IIRC):


2. Reconstruction of its 12th or 13th century look, from Carole Hillenbrands "The Crusades, Islamic Perspectives". A friend of mine coloured it and added a background for a presentation I did years ago:


3. A photo of the inner courtyard to give an idea about texture. You will find more of that on the internet, so it's just one. If someone was interested in certain areas, I might browse my collection of photos:


And finally the pdf that has it all, dozens of plans, photos, descriptions and a 3D model:
http://archnet.org/library/documents/one-document.jsp?document_id=10621 --> Download Publication

The general impression of the Castle is that of a fox's den. Lots of small rooms, holes, vaults crowded together (to me it felt like Krak des Chevaliers on a 1:3 scale). The entrance is designed so that entering soldiers can be attacked on their shield side since they have to go right. Aside from that there is an inner courtyard, two castles stuck into each other, as it were (like you find it with other Middle Eastern castles).

 

[quapitty]

Thanks!

 

[quapitty]

You are right, the walls are a bit too square. I will add a few bends and turns to make it more like the map I was looking at when I started.  .

How about this? I Just messed with the walls in front left.

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It is important, that the wall looks good from the player's perspective. Now your walls have just some bends. But that doesn't make sense. It is not that builders in the middle age didn't know how to draw a proper line. Most walls of towns in Europe were following a more or less circled structure (though not so clear for Jerusalem I must admit). And special advantage of the terrain was also important, such as rocks and rivers. They would try to use the advantage of the existing landscape as much as possible. You can see it on your map. The walls in the West seem to follow the terrain line. Therefore they are not straight. What I want to say: Just make the wall's line look logic. Means if there is a bend in the wall, a rock/river might be the reason.

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[Cèsar de Quart]

Hey, impressinve work you all! Jerusalem's coming to life!

I just wanted to let something down on Athens. I've always loved how people are capable of reusing the old fisionomy of the cities they inhabit. This is a prime example: the ducal palace in Athens:

They built a castle on the Acropolis' Propylaea. It looks neat; it is indeed dated around 1230-1260, but since it origins with the Fourth Crusade, and it's 1204...

 

[NikeBG]

Oh, looks great! And good to see you here, mate!