I have to agree nearly completely with the write up of Hairless.
Well written!
Well written!
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S++ rank Bannerlord gamer feedback on beta
- Thread starter Hairless
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I'll chip in my thoughts about balance here;
(i)First of all, I would consider the biggest indicator for balance of the game as "class limits vote" we had at the beginning of all BEAST tournements. Because as long as we have to force class limits in order to make "competitive" players spawn as infantry the game ain't balanced. From this context I doubt this patch will affect this issue in any way.
(ii)At this point I am assuming devs are forgetting to calculate encumbrance into movement speed adjustments. There is no way any heavy inf will catch any of the light/cheap ranger variants as long as the ranged player decides to run. Furthermore I would say that light/cheap rangers are not so much worse than the expensive ones as long as they dont get hit(armor).
(iii)So far I/we have voted nay to class limits, because I tought at the time that this would only be a tampon and the devs would end up balancing in a way that we'd need the class limits more and more every balance patch, akin to a chemical addiction. And this patch might make the game more healthy under class limits, but it does increase the need of class limits compared to the previous one.
(iv)I am intentionally not starting on factions, because I probably woulnd't be able to finish. Just keep em asymmetric but playable.
(v)Lastly "Balance" moving in a direction that requires class limits will and at the moment does harm the fresh novice experience. Talewords should consider this a nightmare due to their "early access isn't release" approach, hence a future injection of a lot of new players should be accounted for in balance considerations.
Some key suggestions I'd like to make:
-For shielded infantry classes, 1 handed weapon(main) choices and side weapon choices should be on different perks. Always. (I mean come on.)
- Just price Khuzait's Spear Infantry at 125 (but definitely not 120), I think triple spawns on full money used to be the only thing that used to redemt this class, and I personnally dont see any other way of saving it without massively changing it.
-Give all Recruit(cheapest infantry) classes their faction's respective short spear by default without the need of spending a perk on it. (being able to have a spear and a shield on these classes would hinder 6 cav cheese a lot when skill and experience levels are comparable)
-Slowest infantry class should be at least 10% faster than the fastest ranged class accross all factions. (and this for 6 ranged cheese)
-I understand balancing differently accross different game modes is a big NO, and I agree with this. Keep the stats and equipment same accross all but you might wanna adjust the pricing of classes differently between game modes, because at this point I think we are in a scenerio where siege/tdm balance messes with skirmish or vice versa. This would give you more freedom to work with, just like you balance captain mode with unit sizes without hindering other modes.
(i)First of all, I would consider the biggest indicator for balance of the game as "class limits vote" we had at the beginning of all BEAST tournements. Because as long as we have to force class limits in order to make "competitive" players spawn as infantry the game ain't balanced. From this context I doubt this patch will affect this issue in any way.
(ii)At this point I am assuming devs are forgetting to calculate encumbrance into movement speed adjustments. There is no way any heavy inf will catch any of the light/cheap ranger variants as long as the ranged player decides to run. Furthermore I would say that light/cheap rangers are not so much worse than the expensive ones as long as they dont get hit(armor).
(iii)So far I/we have voted nay to class limits, because I tought at the time that this would only be a tampon and the devs would end up balancing in a way that we'd need the class limits more and more every balance patch, akin to a chemical addiction. And this patch might make the game more healthy under class limits, but it does increase the need of class limits compared to the previous one.
(iv)I am intentionally not starting on factions, because I probably woulnd't be able to finish. Just keep em asymmetric but playable.
(v)Lastly "Balance" moving in a direction that requires class limits will and at the moment does harm the fresh novice experience. Talewords should consider this a nightmare due to their "early access isn't release" approach, hence a future injection of a lot of new players should be accounted for in balance considerations.
Some key suggestions I'd like to make:
-For shielded infantry classes, 1 handed weapon(main) choices and side weapon choices should be on different perks. Always. (I mean come on.)
- Just price Khuzait's Spear Infantry at 125 (but definitely not 120), I think triple spawns on full money used to be the only thing that used to redemt this class, and I personnally dont see any other way of saving it without massively changing it.
-Give all Recruit(cheapest infantry) classes their faction's respective short spear by default without the need of spending a perk on it. (being able to have a spear and a shield on these classes would hinder 6 cav cheese a lot when skill and experience levels are comparable)
-Slowest infantry class should be at least 10% faster than the fastest ranged class accross all factions. (and this for 6 ranged cheese)
-I understand balancing differently accross different game modes is a big NO, and I agree with this. Keep the stats and equipment same accross all but you might wanna adjust the pricing of classes differently between game modes, because at this point I think we are in a scenerio where siege/tdm balance messes with skirmish or vice versa. This would give you more freedom to work with, just like you balance captain mode with unit sizes without hindering other modes.
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Regarding the class restriction: It was introduced back then because people just were tired to face always and always the same archer + cav combination.
The devs adressed cavalry with 1.5 and actually archers were the only class which wasn't completely overhauled or ****ed over. Now it's getting restored to previous strength or getting even more powerful which I see as a step in the wrong direction.
I want the restriction gone. I don't want "forced infantry", I want infantry which is taken because it's useful to take. Melee should therefore not be last resort if cornered. If you see what they're doing right now with crossbows (making them more powerful, giving out shields to 110 spawns etc) or Battania Ranger (handing them over the favorite toys of infantry while taking it away from them) then this restriction is not going to fall.
This will just cement the restriction so hard into the game that the devs should consider coding it into the software if this approach is followed through.
To all who say archers will be totally fine if this patch goes live, I recommend getting put into a crossfire by Keyboard Warriors Light. You will instantly retract that statement. I hope the idea with "catching up" will work but I highly doubt it until I see it.
The devs adressed cavalry with 1.5 and actually archers were the only class which wasn't completely overhauled or ****ed over. Now it's getting restored to previous strength or getting even more powerful which I see as a step in the wrong direction.
I want the restriction gone. I don't want "forced infantry", I want infantry which is taken because it's useful to take. Melee should therefore not be last resort if cornered. If you see what they're doing right now with crossbows (making them more powerful, giving out shields to 110 spawns etc) or Battania Ranger (handing them over the favorite toys of infantry while taking it away from them) then this restriction is not going to fall.
This will just cement the restriction so hard into the game that the devs should consider coding it into the software if this approach is followed through.
To all who say archers will be totally fine if this patch goes live, I recommend getting put into a crossfire by Keyboard Warriors Light. You will instantly retract that statement. I hope the idea with "catching up" will work but I highly doubt it until I see it.
The throwing weapons spam was an absolutely disgusting meta. Inf play and especially inf vs. inf combat should be about melee team fighting, not gimmicks like run-n-gun throwing skirmishes. Let the inf settle their differences with swords, maces, and axes, let them catch up to archers, and let them defend themselves from cav with spears and we'll have a much more copacetic Skirmish Mode.
Ya I agree with your statement. I'm above average for cav and archer but I mainly play infantry and the next patch has me worried. I feel like archers will completely dominate again. Currently there are many archer mains who have become skilled in shooting over infantry's shields and with the new power buff to ranged weapons im worried that we won't have a chance to get anywhere near archers before dying, especially if placed in an effective crossfire such as the A point on Trading post where 2 archers and 1 god infantry can hold back and entire 6 man team. I was hoping to play 1.5.5 this weekend however I will probably wait and hope that archers don't become aids again like back in Beta and beginning of early access when they didn't miss a shot.
@TheBard I'm not criticizing the implementation of class restrictions for the tournament at that time, at the time I personally hated it but with hindsight I see its necessity for the tournament. It would definitely result in the suprise increase of teams in BEAST 3 not happening. On the contrary I now understand that competitive community would have shrunk. But devs hiding behind it is a different thing. Cementing it in software would be disastrous, it would be the Overwatch way of managing metas, by choking them. And we all know how that turned out.
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AVRC
Sergeant at Arms
I literally discussed all this yesterday on Discord with the players don't worry.
Totally agree, that's what we are working towards.
We won't get there in a single patch but we are working with the community to get there. We will have a hotfix early this week to address immediate concerns and test it out again.
Thanks to all the players who participated in the Beta pick-up matches and provided feedback, especially @Hairless who put in the effort to create a well written post.
I just want a road map monthly or at least yearly, is that too much to ask
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AVRC
Sergeant at Arms
Well we do post an almost monthly statement regarding what's being worked on.I just want a road map monthly or at least yearly, is that too much to ask
Well I believe this community needs more, like your future plans for the game, not only for the that month but for the next months as well, what will be added throughout the year so we don't live in constant fear of what way this game will go into. That way we can actually at least have some knowledge of what is going to happen and suggest to improve it or state that %99 of the community wouldn't like it.
If you did this before the crush through update for example and let us knew, we wouldn't even have this past months of problems with the crush through.
If your community has held on to your franchise for 9 years and willing to give money to the sequel blindly, you need to at least do this imo
Exactly this. Knowing what you're working on this month is nice and all, but a proper roadmap will let us understand what TW considers to be the scope and general timeline of multiplayer.Well I believe this community needs more, like your future plans for the game, not only for the that month but for the next months as well, what will be added throughout the year so we don't live in constant fear of what way this game will go into. That way we can actually at least have some knowledge of what is going to happen and suggest to improve it or state that %99 of the community wouldn't like it.
If you did this before the crush through update for example and let us knew, we wouldn't even have this past months of problems with the crush through.
If your community has held on to your franchise for 9 years and willing to give money to the sequel blindly, you need to at least do this imo
This.
I totally agree with that. So don't get me wrong. I was the one responsible for initiating this vote and I don't regret it. It was disputed, but probably necessary to not let the game degrade into counter strike and 1.5 was a step into the right direction with Cav being nerfed and Archers also slightly weaker due to different aiming behavior.
If the archer and cav nerfs are partially reverted - to what this update looks like rn - and the only viable defense infantry had to avoid getting stomped - throwing - is being taken away from them, I fear the worst. The cav rearing was most brutal, but still riders would only die from the rear if they get focussed. You see in all comp matches cav being top score despite the nerfs, @Aprikosenmann statistics for BEAST#2 shows this that the strongest riders this game features - Firunien, Woj, Relexan - score super high. This is partially due to their incredible ability but also partially due to class.
Spears are not totally useless, but rearing is not going to kill the cav, but stop them, the kill would be usually not be done by the spearman, but by an archer, other infantry or cav taking out the rider. So if you take away rearing or nerf it, take away throwing from the infantry, you need to give them something else. Bastard Swords are not the thing they need imo, since to fully employ their power you would need to wield them two-handed, making inf vulnerable to cav and archers again. Infantry will just return to the forced role of pre 1.5 with this and will again just do the dying unless you force them vial limits.
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just making sure papi
Impressed by the amount of things happening on beta, I kinda forgot about one of the most important aspects, which is crush through. It's finally in the place it should be from the beginning. Tho weird thing happen during tests. AXDER managed to one shot Daban(Sergeant+improved) with Battania 2 handed mace from 100 to 0. I really hope it was single happening and not an static thing with maces changes. It wasn't crush through tho, just a normal hit into person without block.
I mean a monthly response is nice and atleast it occurs. However it would be nice to know your plans for MP by release and maybe for the foreseeable future.
This is a very good summary of the situation and the feeling of a lot of competitive players. Many thanks to Hairless for taking the time to do it. I can't wait to play the beta because the gameplay is going to change a lot and that's always interesting. Hopefully, the points Hairless made will be taken into account.
(by the way, my camel approved this)
(by the way, my camel approved this)
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