Russian Research

[Cèsar de Quart]

Hello there!

Well, we want to make the Russian factions of Kiev and Halych-Volhynia for the next version, but our access to Russian history is very limited, and the Russians are not used to translate their historiography, sadly enough. And I cannot read Russian.

So we need your help. Any information about lords, settlements, castles, towns, units, society, economy, etc, will be most welcome. Do not hesitate in posting a wall of text (but keep orthography a little polite, otherwise we won't understand it), but try to tell us your sources. It's easy to fall in the "I read somewhere" reasonment, this happens to me sometimes, only to discover later that I was actually wrong.

That's all for now. Do not despair if Cruger or I don't answer in some time. I don't know about Cruger, but I'm in the middle of a hell of a month, with exams, projects, thesis and diplodocus.

Thanks for helping. I like to think that now is when the fun begin. Sketches are made, discussions are thrown, blades are drawn and blood is spilled.

Take care!

 

[Dionisy]

  Dear Cesar, I am newcomer to MB, but playing only historical mods. So Europe 1200 take my interest and i will play it. Meanwile I try to help you with russian medieval warfare. First take a look to great russian mod for RTW - BI "RUS Total War", created by VIR. Here the link for russian forum with english wersion of mod.

http://www.internetwars.ru/RusTW/RusTV.htm

Now VIR made mod for MTW2, and I'l supply you with the link. Also take a look to 1257 edithion - vegirs there has a pretty historical accurate apperience for Rus in 13 century.

In 13 century Rus professonal warriors called "Druzina" - friends (of prince). They was nobles of different rich, and evan playn folk, who can by war horse and weapon and shown themselves in buttle. Druzina lives with prince exept estate owners. They war jear was norman origin with 1 exeption - instead sord they use saber, mice or axe. All druzinnic fight on horses like norman knights, some use javelins ("sulica"). They war mail shirts, some use mail and byzantium lamellar armour. No all for this post, go to historical soursec!

 

[blowcrapup]

In 13 century Rus professonal warriors called "Druzina" - friends (of prince). They was nobles of different rich, and evan playn folk, who can by war horse and weapon and shown themselves in buttle. Druzina lives with prince exept estate owners. They war jear was norman origin with 1 exeption - instead sord they use saber, mice or axe. All druzinnic fight on horses like norman knights, some use javelins ("sulica"). They war mail shirts, some use mail and byzantium lamellar armour. No all for this post, go to historical soursec!

To add a little bit more to this. Druzina (дружи'на) acted like personal guards to the local noble with the individual units being called druzhinnik (дружи'нник). When there was trouble they would raise a militia with the Druzina serving as the core. The leaders of the miltia would be the Kynaz, which translate as Prince or less commonly Duke.

Source - Link died but can be found Manually still :S. It says Muscovy but the actual article is about Kiev.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

go to historical soursec!

I would like, but as I said, I can't read Russian, and most of the information on this issue is in Russian.

Thank you both. That's a good start!

In 13 century Rus professonal warriors called "Druzina" - friends (of prince). They was nobles of different rich, and evan playn folk, who can by war horse and weapon and shown themselves in buttle. Druzina lives with prince exept estate owners. They war jear was norman origin with 1 exeption - instead sord they use saber, mice or axe. All druzinnic fight on horses like norman knights, some use javelins ("sulica"). They war mail shirts, some use mail and byzantium lamellar armour. No all for this post, go to historical soursec!

To add a little bit more to this. Druzina (дружи'на) acted like personal guards to the local noble with the individual units being called druzhinnik (дружи'нник). When there was trouble they would raise a militia with the Druzina serving as the core. The leaders of the miltia would be the Kynaz, which translate as Prince or less commonly Duke.

Source - http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Russian_military_ranks_-_Muscovy/id/5433583. It says Muscovy but the actual article is about Kiev.

Thanks! But the website is no more, or the link is broken.


Anyway, here's the troop trees I've made so far:

Kiev

Spoiler

                              ---- Brodnik
                              l
                              l
            ---- Archer ---- Kipchaq Rider ---- Black Hood Rider                       
          l               
          l                                          ---- Grid Druzhinnik ---- Malaia Druzhinnik
          l                                          l
          l                                          l     
Smerd ---- Militian ---- Spearman ---- Kievan Guard
                              l
                              l
                                ---- Varjaz warrior ---- Veteran Varjaz

Halych

Spoiler

            ---- Archer ---- Crossbowman
          l               
          l                                          ---- Grid Druzhinnik ---- Malaia Druzhinnik
          l                                          l
          l                                          l     
Smerd ---- Militian ---- Spearman ---- Sergeant ---- Veteran sergeant ---- Knight
                              l
                              l
                              ---- Horseman ---- Magyar rider

And a list of lords and settlements for Halych:

Principality of Halych

Spoiler

Prince Roman Mstislavich the Great

Cities:

Halych (Terebovl, Kolomiya) – Prince Roman the Great (married to Anna Angelina)


Castles:

Volodymyr (Kobryn) – Daniil Romanovich
Brest (Luboml)
Peremyshl (Sanok) - Bishop Antoni
Holm (Cherven)
Belz (Buzhsk) - Vsevolod Mstislavich
Lutsk (Duben)
Vasyliv (Boloto)
Rodka
Koknese - Prince Vychako

Grand Principality of Kiev

Spoiler

Grand Prince Rurik Rostitslavich
Claimant: Vsevolod Svyatoslavich, the Red

Cities:

Kiev - Grand Prince Rurik Rostitslavich
Turov - Prince Ivan Iurevich

Castles:

Pereyaslavl - Igor Svyatoslavich
Chernigov - Oleg Svyatoslavich
Novgorod-Seversk - Igor Svyatoslavich
Pinsk -
Novohrad (Peresopnytsai) -
Hubyn (Medjybozh) -
Horchevsk -
Putyvl - Vladimir Igorevich
Ouruch (Iskorosten) -
Tmutarakan - It was still in control of Rus' princes.
Polotsk - Volodar Vseslavich (maybe Polotsk to Novgorod?)

Those following are too far away. Maybe for a Vladimir-Suzdal / Novgorod faction, if so.

Minsk -
Torchesk - Mstislav Mstislavich
Smolensk - Mstislav Romanovic
Vladimir - Vsevolod Yuryevich
Murom - Vladimir Iur'evich
Ryazan -

Map of Rus':

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Kievan-rus-1015-1113-(en).png

As you can see, more or less I have the locations, but I lack some villages and a lot of lords.

Take care!

 

[atilavp]

Hi I come from Galicia, so I know it's history and can help a little if you want to make one comment not Russian (modern Russia) Rus no relation to Galicia Galicia is now a part of Ukraine
Sorry for the error using a translator

 

[NikeBG]

Concerning the Galician tree, the Rus didn't have exactly "knights". Perhaps "vityaz" would be a better term - I don't know about Russia, but at least here its meaning is like a Slavic "version" of a knight (with the respective differences due to the social structure, of course).

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

Hi I come from Galicia, so I know it's history and can help a little if you want to make one comment not Russian (modern Russia) Rus no relation to Galicia Galicia is now a part of Ukraine
Sorry for the error using a translator

Galicia was part of the Rus' Principalities; that means that a Rus' prince ruled over it. What is more, in the Middle Ages the area was known as Red Ruthenia (Ruthenia is the latinization for "the land of the Rus") because it was ruled by the Rus. The inhabitants of Galicia were no Russians in the sense that Russian has today. But in the Middle Ages they were considered to be Ruthenians, that is, part of the People of Rus'.

Look at the map: the green line is the limit of the Kievan Rus', at the time of Grand Prince Saint Vladimir (958-1015 AD)

Spoiler

 

[atilavp]

Galicia was part of the Rus' Principalities; that means that a Rus' prince ruled over it. What is more, in the Middle Ages the area was known as Red Ruthenia (Ruthenia is the latinization for "the land of the Rus") because it was ruled by the Rus. The inhabitants of Galicia were no Russians in the sense that Russian has today. But in the Middle Ages they were considered to be Ruthenians, that is, part of the People of Rus'.

Look at the map: the green line is the limit of the Kievan Rus', at the time of Grand Prince Saint Vladimir (958-1015 AD)

Beholden for an answer it I wanted to hear simply I got it right a theme and am sorry that I troubled simply very interested your modification All the same there my native land

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

Galicia was part of the Rus' Principalities; that means that a Rus' prince ruled over it. What is more, in the Middle Ages the area was known as Red Ruthenia (Ruthenia is the latinization for "the land of the Rus") because it was ruled by the Rus. The inhabitants of Galicia were no Russians in the sense that Russian has today. But in the Middle Ages they were considered to be Ruthenians, that is, part of the People of Rus'.

Look at the map: the green line is the limit of the Kievan Rus', at the time of Grand Prince Saint Vladimir (958-1015 AD)

Beholden for an answer it I wanted to hear simply I got it right a theme and am sorry that I troubled simply very interested your modification All the same there my native land

No trouble made at all, don't be sorry for that.

 

[Dionisy]

Hi mates, now I give point on terms "vityaz". As said In Dal dictionary of russian language "vityaz" is scilled horse warrior, veteran with lucky life carier. Knights was not in Rus armies, rus pattern of knigts called druzinnic. So was not sergants in rus armys, professional infantry take origing in 15 century. The clu of it lay in character of Rus enemies - nomadic horseman, so infantry can not withstand in steppes.
But Rus princes use militia - village militia (use axe, hunting spear, shields, now armour) and city militia (opolchenie). Some historian differ city militia on junior opolchenie - spearmen with lithe armour and senior opolchenie - rich people with mail, sord or axe, and shild. Also militia use bows and crossbows - details of them was find durind archeological researcers. Militia use only for defence of citys and they commander called "tysyacskiy" (commander of 1000 men).
Also 2 class of rus nobility called boyars (bo - yare - impetouse in combat). Then prince own cityes and principalyties, boyars has villages. They war jear was same as druzina and boyars has retinyu with loyal men - mail armored horsmen.
And now brief about russin steppes federaty. Black hats (not hood), berendei, turpei, torki, covui - was steppe peoplse who fled from cumans on rus border ant took hommage to Rus prince. About this people nown thery little, exept that they was single horse archers in early rus armys. Rusichi called them "our pagans" and use they horse archery in civil or border war.
As for cumans they fight only like mercenaries and allyes in case of lute and slaves. After buttles they returned in steppes.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

Hi mates, now I give point on terms "vityaz". As said In Dal dictionary of russian language "vityaz" is scilled horse warrior, veteran with lucky life carier. Knights was not in Rus armies, rus pattern of knigts called druzinnic. So was not sergants in rus armys, professional infantry take origing in 15 century. The clu of it lay in character of Rus enemies - nomadic horseman, so infantry can not withstand in steppes.
But Rus princes use militia - village militia (use axe, hunting spear, shields, now armour) and city militia (opolchenie). Some historian differ city militia on junior opolchenie - spearmen with lithe armour and senior opolchenie - rich people with mail, sord or axe, and shild. Also militia use bows and crossbows - details of them was find durind archeological researcers. Militia use only for defence of citys and they commander called "tysyacskiy" (commander of 1000 men).
Also 2 class of rus nobility called boyars (bo - yare - impetouse in combat). Then prince own cityes and principalyties, boyars has villages. They war jear was same as druzina and boyars has retinyu with loyal men - mail armored horsmen.
And now brief about russin steppes federaty. Black hats (not hood), berendei, turpei, torki, covui - was steppe peoplse who fled from cumans on rus border ant took hommage to Rus prince. About this people nown thery little, exept that they was single horse archers in early rus armys. Rusichi called them "our pagans" and use they horse archery in civil or border war.
As for cumans they fight only like mercenaries and allyes in case of lute and slaves. After buttles they returned in steppes.

Thank you!

About the knights and sergeants, I made them part of the Galitzian tree because Galitzia was partly feudalizated in its western part, like Poland or Hungary. Of course, this matter can be discussed, but for now I think that a little Feudal presence is needed in Galitzia.

Take care!

 

[Dionisy]

  Dear Cesar, think you are write, but instead sergants best use rus word "Kmet" - professional warrior. As for Galish principality - in it armys was many boyars warrior - heavy cavalry (so say historian) because on carpatian mountens were many solt mines and galish nobility were rich. Also VIR in Rus TW mod for Galish use carpatian hillmen - white croats with throwing axes (so i think you can include them in your roster).
I think is necessary to include in russian roster steppe federaty - berendei (horse archers, mail, saber) and torki (heavy steppe cavalry). They mostly use in Kiev army.

 

[Kordian]

Hi,
I think you should also check some Osprey books, for instance this http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Medieval-Russian-Armies-1250%E2%80%931500_9781841762340/  and this http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Armies-of-Medieval-Russia-750–1250_9781855328488/ , it is quite easy even to find a digital version of it.

Osprey books usually are full of interesting info about armies, weapons, armours and so on.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

Hi,
I think you should also check some Osprey books, for instance this http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Medieval-Russian-Armies-1250%E2%80%931500_9781841762340/  and this http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Armies-of-Medieval-Russia-750–1250_9781855328488/ , it is quite easy even to find a digital version of it.

Osprey books usually are full of interesting info about armies, weapons, armours and so on.

Thanks, but I already have it.

 

[Darth Ellutador]

Is Novgorod going to be in the next version too, César?

 

[Untitled.]

Thanks guys. Now the scands can rape slavs again just like they did historically.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

Is Novgorod going to be in the next version too, César?

Cruger says that it would be too far away from everywhere. So not for now.

 

[Darth Ellutador]

Is Novgorod going to be in the next version too, César?

Cruger says that it would be too far away from everywhere. So not for now.

Alright, thanks for the answer.

 

[Serbian]

Cesar i will help , i can understand a litle of russian so tell me what else you need for russian factions ? military? cities ? what ill search

and btw someone said kmet for a proffesional warrior , its not true , in slavic countries russia,serbia... kmet does not mean proffesional warrior it means servant of a knight,prince,noble... etc hope this help cesar.

 

[Serbian]

Kievan Rus' was not able to maintain its position as a powerful and prosperous state, in part because of the amalgamation of disparate lands under the control of a ruling clan. As the members of that clan became more numerous, they identified themselves with regional interests rather than with the larger patrimony. Thus, the princes fought among themselves, frequently forming alliances with outside groups such as the Polovtsians, Poles and Hungarians. During the years from 1054 to 1224 no fewer than 64 principalities had a more or less ephemeral existence, 293 princes put forward succession claims, and their disputes led to 83 civil wars.

The Crusades brought a shift in European trade routes that accelerated the decline of Kievan Rus′. In 1204 the forces of the Fourth Crusade sacked Constantinople, making the Dnieper trade route marginal. As it declined, Kievan Rus′ splintered into many principalities and several large regional centers: Chernigov (modern Chernihiv), Halych(Galich), Novgorod, Pereyaslav, Polotsk, Smolensk and Vladimir-Suzdal. The inhabitants of those regional centres then evolved into three nationalities: Ukrainians in the southeast and southwest, Belarusians in the northwest and Russians in the north and northeast.

also check out this link : http://www.answers.com/topic/kievan-rus <<<<<<< very useful