"RED_sweet_siege_servers" is Tercios, back from the dead

[Vendigr]

If you haven't already, please read the OP from this thread:

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,263630.0.html

This is exactly what "Red_sweet_siege_servers" is doing, they appear to have the same settings as Tercios did, and the same maps (also stolen and renamed). On the other hand, this server appears to be hosted in Russia instead of Spain, so I don't know 100% that these are the same people. But it would be even worse if these are actually new people copying them, because that means the precedent I was afraid of is being established. Negotiating with them is obviously not going to work this time. It seems like there are no clearly defined rules that we can call on to get their server shut down... but maybe there should be some.



For those of you who don't understand why this is a big deal:

Spoiler

Its simple: People do not make money by developing maps and mod content, all they get is recognition. If they host a server, they also get traffic. If you don't get recognition OR traffic for your work, you're not going to work.

People aren't going to make cool maps or custom add-ons. There won't be new maps or mods to steal because no one is making them. Saying "its not a big deal" is like saying plagiarism isn't a big deal -- that any publisher should be able to publish any book anyone writes and take all the profits. Its the same situation, except the "profits" in this case are only traffic and credit. There is no point in putting huge amounts of effort into writing a book if someone else is going to claim it as their own and make tons of money selling your work -- and that is essentially what's going on here.

After a while you end up with and handful of sleazy publishers re-releasing the same content, and no authors to write new material. You need property laws to have an economy, and you need permission rules to have a "modding economy". If these aren't enforced, you're going to see the servers and people who create original content go away. They will not be making new maps to be stolen and hosted on the newer low-quality servers that are replacing them.

For those of you who would like to help:

Spoiler

-If you know anyone at Taleworlds that could be contacted directly, please get in touch with them. I might just be really oblivous, but I couldn't find a single email address on the Taleworlds website besides the "Taleworlds is hiring" one... so if anyone knows how to contact them directly, I would appreciate that information. If anyone has it, I can post it here so people can start reaching out directly.  It doesn't look like forum admins are the people to contact

-Help other servers that have had maps stolen re-gain population."Vote" against these guys by playing on other servers and alerting people to the situation. Let them know this kind of behavior isn't tolerated by the community here... at least I hope it isn't.

-Figure out who is running this server and see if there's a reasonable company behind it we can contact. Figure out if this is the same person/people as were involved in the Tercios server, or different people. Yberion was able to figure out what to do last time w/ the copyright situation here: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,263630.60.html Maybe something similar could be done if we figure out who to get in touch with.

-Look at the EULA and see if we can find anything useful. More info on that in the above link.

This is really disappointing to see, especially for the people who've worked so hard to create this content in the first place. Maybe I'm being melodramatic, but this looks to me like a potential starting point for the terminal decline of a community I've enjoyed too much not to care about... We have had an atmosphere of healthy competition and cooperation going for a while, and its kept native (probably WB too) alive. It would be awful to see that destroyed or damaged by this kind of behavior. 


EDIT: I also heard that they were affiliated with a clan called "Gallogass" (not sure if its a typo or the name)

 

[Shemaforash]

Different hosts, already exists RU_Sweet_Battle, RU_Sweet_Duel

 

[Vendigr]

Different hosts, already exists RU_Sweet_Battle, RU_Sweet_Duel

Yeah I think you're right. But I am seriously wondering if there is some connection between the two, since they have all the same stats and etc... but maybe they're just copying them. I don't know how their siege server suddenly got so much traffic out of nowhere though, since I've never seen them before today. They may be just "Tercios back from the dead" in spirit, then

But unfortunately its still just as much of an issue. Even worse, in some ways

 

[BinaryAznMon]

time to get naked with a GLA

EDIT: also im extremely surprised this happened again but so soon. You have my full support in this in whatever you decide to do.

 

[Greedalicious]

We dont know if they have any of our files or not but GK has our support in this. Its rediculous that it happened so quickly after Tercios. I dont think theres a direct link, I think they just saw Tercio being successfull, and decided to copy their methods.

 

[jeckfromshadow]

why dont you copy their methods? people playing on their server not because of their maps, wolfpack siege has even better maps. imo people like to play something new. also wolfpack siege server administration should consider why people preferr new server, for me its inherited from 22nd siege system, it is good but unfortuanetly it still has its own design flaws, its feels not finished, like after switching map team which is defending is always in disadvantage or not possible to aquire enough money to buy heavy armor or heavy horses.

im not supporting using GK maps without permission, but i think you dramatizing problem too much. noone will play on their server if you can provide good enough competetor

 

[BinaryAznMon]

totally wrong person to be say this, but english first please then post

 

[Vendigr]

why dont you copy their methods?

How do we steal our own maps from them? We already have permission to use them 

people playing on their server not because of their maps, wolfpack siege has even better maps. imo people like to play something new.

You say "people like to play something new" but there is nothing new about that server. It's all content ripped from other servers. It's actually Wolfpack, GK, and other servers that are making new content. These guys are damaging that source of new content while contributing nothing of their own.


I will keep an eye open for which maps they're using @Greed, but yes it is really bad that this is happening again so quickly, which is why I think we need to get Taleworlds involved however possible. I'm glad people still willing to get involved with this, though... it is definitely tiring 

 

[Shemaforash]

I think you're making too big of a deal though, just allow them to publically present your maps, allow MORE people to have fun on them and let the "drama" be over with.

 

[Gaius_Octavian]

I think you're making too big of a deal though, just allow them to publically present your maps, allow MORE people to have fun on them and let the "drama" be over with.

Takes a fair amount of time and effort to make a map.  I am sure that if you created something which takes days, something actually original, you would gladly let all of use it.  Please develop something of quality and just give it away.  I would take you seriously then. 

 

[Knight of the Rose]

I think you're making too big of a deal though, just allow them to publically present your maps, allow MORE people to have fun on them and let the "drama" be over with.

Takes a fair amount of time and effort to make a map.  I am sure that if you created something which takes days, something actually original, you would gladly let all of use it.  Please develop something of quality and just give it away.  I would take you seriously then.

Exactly... I have put in about 1500 hours of mapping,  made about 50 maps that's 30 hours per map on average.

All's I can say to this is...

Seriously if this kind of thing isn't taken care of I am at the point where I ask myself why I would even bother to mod let alone buy bannerlord. 

 

[michi]

Please dont kill europe siege comunity 

 

[Oposum]

I had a chat with Vincenzo about the issue, and his opinion was that TW can't do anything about this. It would be up to each copyright holder (yes, maps are copyrighted) to file a civil lawsuit against the host.

I guess if someone filed lawsuit against map piracy it would discourage people from stealing maps.

[quote author=jeckfromshadow"]
why dont you copy their methods? people playing on their server not because of their maps, wolfpack siege has even better maps. imo people like to play something new. also wolfpack siege server administration should consider why people preferr new server, for me its inherited from 22nd siege system, it is good but unfortuanetly it still has its own design flaws, its feels not finished, like after switching map team which is defending is always in disadvantage or not possible to aquire enough money to buy heavy armor or heavy horses.
[/quote]

Nah, it only has to do with ridiculous amounts of starting gold because casual players prefer to hop into action with top tier equipment.
Secondly, design flaws with door strength is Warbands fault since door strength is calculated using player numbers during first ~10 seconds (during which most players don't connect because of loading large maps).

 

[killer-blead]

[quote author="From other thread"]
I had a chat with Vincenzo about the issue, and his opinion was that TW can't do anything about this. It would be up to each copyright holder (yes, maps are copyrighted) to file a civil lawsuit against the host.

I guess if someone filed lawsuit against map piracy it would discourage people from stealing maps.
[/quote]
I think it takes less effort to steal a map than to file a lawsuit against the person.

 

[Primi]

I got in touch with their admin (Vishnya) and he's nice guy, I think this problem is quickly solved. He told me that he got maps from Vseslav_Galloglass and he's asking him where did he get these maps. I'm sure if he finds out that maps are illegal they remove them.

 

[Vishnya]

Dear taleworlds community!
I'm the head-administrator of russian Sweet server project. Recently we've started a new siege server with RED servers project because there were no russian siege servers and we wanted to glad them with a new server. I don't know much about sieges and asked for help with installation Vseslav (head-admin of RED project) and he gave me a piece of advice about the settings for the siege and maps. I can't make any statements now because Vseslav is currently offline. But one thing that i can say that we didn't expect to make such a mess and just wanted to make a good server for russian people. Our project has a quite good reputation in Russia for more than a year as battle, duel and nirecotive mod server. We are using my ownly modified Madmin called Vishnya Admin Tools on all our server except of nirecotive. If these maps turn stolen I'll remove them. For now, please write me the names of ur maps (Names we use on our server).
I'll write further info ASAP.

 

[jeckfromshadow]

You say "people like to play something new" but there is nothing new about that server. It's all content ripped from other servers. It's actually Wolfpack, GK, and other servers that are making new content. These guys are damaging that source of new content while contributing nothing of their own.

you think people are playing on that server just to piss off you Vendigr, gk or wolfpack. No, they playing there cause its entertaining and funny, because there are demand for such thing. dont agree with you, new maps only not makes your server popular - its combination of interesting settings with good server and maps.

agree server is more casual player oriented cause of starting money, but I played there and it is really interesting expirience not only for casual player, for example possibility to use top tier equipment appeals to me, since i cant do it on wolfpack server. On wolfpack siege server you need to be really skillful or lucky to get enough money, but it is so easy to lost them, i think it is bad design flaw since top tier equipment is almost not used. Have to admit i really like wolfpack after they disabled freindly fire.

Currently wolfpack and this server are in different categories, my preference depend on my mood.

Takes a fair amount of time and effort to make a map.  I am sure that if you created something which takes days, something actually original, you would gladly let all of use it.  Please develop something of quality and just give it away.  I would take you seriously then. 

done. also there are so many other better examples, my favourite is persistent world and vorne.

Secondly, design flaws with door strength is Warbands fault since door strength is calculated using player numbers during first ~10 seconds (during which most players don't connect because of loading large maps).

i heard someone suggested to put a 10 second timer after map changes, will it work? also problem not only with doors, attackers can take first defence lines before defenders can even spawn, considering they need to choose troop type and equipment while the game is already started.

Exactly... I have put in about 1500 hours of mapping,  made about 50 maps that's 30 hours per map on average.

Also partially cause of your persecution company, gst server is now closed and i wanted to play there. One thing is forbid gst to use your maps, other is to force people to shut down server, now i have to play on different wserver with slightly worse ping, im sure im not alone. This definetly is giving GK and wolfpack a bad name.

Exactly... I have put in about 1500 hours of mapping,  made about 50 maps that's 30 hours per map on average.

Put the list of your maps here, i wont play them.

As a solution to this problem i can advise wolfpack or gk to start more casual europe server. Wolfpack can just adjust their setting to be more casual. Put there what made gst so special and the problem will be solved.

 

[Alene]

done. also there are so many other better examples, my favourite is persistent world and vorne.

Go ahead and make some siege maps then for those servers. Is PWmod open source, or 3d models it uses? If so, could you give me a link, I might want to develop an RP mod of my own using that as a base. If they're not open source, then your "better example" is bad.

Also partially cause of your persecution company, gst server is now closed and i wanted to play there. One thing is forbid gst to use your maps, other is to force people to shut down server, now i have to play on different wserver with slightly worse ping, im sure im not alone. This definetly is giving GK and wolfpack a bad name.

The only party who did wrong here were the GST admins. They could open it without the stolen maps, but for some reason they haven't done it.

 

[jeckfromshadow]

Go ahead and make some siege maps then for those servers. Is PWmod open source, or 3d models it uses? If so, could you give me a link, I might want to develop an RP mod of my own using that as a base. If they're not open source, then your "better example" is bad.

it is "3 clause BSD" (or "BSD simplified") license it is a kind of open source license. http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,263190.0.html

The only party who did wrong here were the GST admins. They could open it without the stolen maps, but for some reason they haven't done it.

agree gst did wrong, their server is closed, responsible for this GK.

 

[Alene]

it is "3 clause BSD" (or "BSD simplified") license it is a kind of open source license. http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,263190.0.html

Very well, code seems to be released. You still should be aware that PWmod was ran with closed code for maybe 2,5 years before the code was released to public. Also there's difference between willingly share something you have done, and it being used without your permission.

If you really want servers to be able to use maps without permission from authors, you can try to change the copyright laws. In the meantime, maybe you should start making those maps for your favourite servers to use.

agree gst did wrong, their server is closed, responsible for this GK.

No, the ones responsible for this are GST admins. They could've complied with demands in time (they had enough of it), and the server would've not been shut down. The one who actually shut down the server was the server host.

I really don't get the point of these messages. You think that the server should've been allowed to run with stolen maps, just because you like it? You really give a bad name for yourself.