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SP Native Realistic Female Troops

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1.5.9

NicoleUK

Sergeant
This mod is slightly based on the amazing 'Mixed Gender Troops' mod. Until someone decides to revive it I decided to make my own female troop mod.

I didnt want to just add some random women for the sake of it and I didnt want to just make a female version of the male troops. I wanted them to be unique troops in their own right but fit in with their factions and their particular style of warfare while remaining balanced. I have taken my time to think about each faction (and the real-life factions they are based on) and made a lore-friendly female troop tree for each one. They are not OP (actually they are kinda weak in the lower tiers) and are as 'realistic' and 'historically accurate' as I can make them. Most of these women are not made for brutal frontline combat but they shine in supportive roles like ranged skirmishing, assisting in flanking the enemy and to make up the numbers in the levy. Only the 'barbarian' factions will have female troops, this is because (in my opinion) I feel it is more 'realistic' that barbarian women would have the opportunity to become warriors.

You can change the ratio of men to women in the config file, the default is set to 20% for normal troops and 5% for noble troops to make them rare. These women are recruitable from the villages in their respective factions and the AI will use them too.


THE TROOPS & THEIR LORE

Khuzait -
The horse and the bow are the great equalizers between the sexes and the nomadic people of the Calradian steppe are taught to ride and shoot from a young age. Both men and women are expected to pull their weight in the tribe and do their share of hunting and its the women's duty to protect the herd when the men are away on campaign, in extreme circumstances they can be fielded as auxiliary horse archers. (IMPLEMENTED)

Sturgia - The war-like men of Sturgia love a good fight and the women are no different! Most women in this snowy place are taught the basics of fighting so that they can confidently defend their farms when the men are called away on raids. Although it is extremely rare to see a Sturgian woman in battle, it is not unheard of as unmarried or widowed women can join a raiding party, if the chieftain permits it. (NOT YET IMPLEMENTED)

Battanian - The women of battania are no stranger to battle. As the empire invades more of their land they are increasingly seen armed and fighting to protect their homes and family. Hunting has been a traditional pastime for these women for generations and some become very skilled with the bow and spear as a result. As more of their brothers and fathers perish in battle, more of the women are stepping up to take their place and avenge them. (NOT YET IMPLEMENTED)

PLEASE BE AWARE THIS IS AN EARLY RELEASE AND SO FAR ONLY KHUZAIT WOMEN HAVE BEEN ADDED... I WILL BE ADDING STURGIAN & BATTANIAN WOMEN IN THE NEXT UPDATE!!!

Suggestions welcome :smile:

https://www.nexusmods.com/mountandblade2bannerlord/mods/2887
 
I dont want to be neatpicker but bow is probably worst weapon for women (it requires specific upper body muscle, department where males differentiate most from females), crossbow makes much more sense (because you can use goat lever, other body muscle etc).
 

NicoleUK

Sergeant
Shadiversity was referring to longbows, especially those medieval longbows used by English archers in the high medieval ages and such. Those draw weights were very high yes and most men couldnt use them let alone women could wield them effectively.

BUT

Recurve bows like the one used by horsepeople and steppe nomads were not like this. They are VERY light to use and men, women and children can and do use them very well. The recurve bow truly was a great equalizer in the ancient world. Not all bows are the same.

Thanks for your response though :smile:


 
Shadiversity was referring to longbows, especially those medieval longbows used by English archers in the high medieval ages and such. Those draw weights were very high yes and most men couldnt use them let alone women could wield them effectively.

BUT

Recurve bows like the one used by horsepeople and steppe nomads were not like this. They are VERY light to use and men, women and children can and do use them very well. The recurve bow truly was a great equalizer in the ancient world. Not all bows are the same.

Thanks for your response though :smile:


Thats not true, they are equally hard to use at same draw weight, difference is that they are roughly 20% more effective. So 130 pound composite bow (and we are talking Mongol/Turkish type, Hunic - weather resistant ones are bit less efficient) have comparable power to 160 pound longbow, but to fully draw 130lb composite (in order to achieve armor piercing effect for example) you need same strength as to draw 130lb longbow, which is still a lot. So yes women (or weak men / children) can draw composite bow or longbow, what matters to both damage and difficulty of drawing is is draw weight. For example olympic bows use draw weight of 50 pounds (comparable in draw weight to weak medieval bow), war bows (aka bows that can threaten mail or scale armor) start around 90-100 pounds of draw weight for comparion. So in order to use high tier bow woman needs to have lets say "masculine" look.
 

NicoleUK

Sergeant
Thats not true, they are equally hard to use at same draw weight, difference is that they are roughly 20% more effective. So 130 pound composite bow (and we are talking Mongol/Turkish type, Hunic - weather resistant ones are bit less efficient) have comparable power to 160 pound longbow, but to fully draw 130lb composite (in order to achieve armor piercing effect for example) you need same strength as to draw 130lb longbow, which is still a lot. So yes women (or weak men / children) can draw composite bow or longbow, what matters to both damage and difficulty of drawing is is draw weight. For example olympic bows use draw weight of 50 pounds (comparable in draw weight to weak medieval bow), war bows (aka bows that can threaten mail or scale armor) start around 90-100 pounds of draw weight for comparion. So in order to use high tier bow woman needs to have lets say "masculine" look.
I get what your saying but recurve bows they distribute the weight differently meaning you can pull a stronger weight on a recurve bow with less struggle. Yes if we are talking about the extreme side with war bows meant to be armour piercing then yes they were a different thing.

The thing is (if we are talking about steppe tribes especially) it wasn't common for the average low-tier warrior to have these kind of bows they would use one probably a little stronger than a hunting bow but something that wasnt specifically a war bow. Steppe horse archers relied on mass volleys of arrows the arrows themselves were usually poisoned. They were not known for individual archers with strong bows but a mass of horse archers firing a mass of volleys... Some of these horse archers would have been veteran warriors with special war bows but probably most were the typical tribesman with his trusty hunting bow. Bows are primarily for hunting afterall and that was their main purpose for the average steppe nomad after that would be self defence...

Thats the kind of women I have in my mod - the nomadic tribeswoman who has her horse and hunting bow assisting in the ranks to build up the numbers. (They certainly are not OP - more like a novelty troop)

Also on the subject of "longbows"... what about tribal hunting bows used by african and south american tribespeople and such? they use the same bows for hunting AND warfare and they are VERY lightweight (as were alot of stone-age and primitive bows... used for both hunting and fighting)

Alot of it had to do with the arrows as opposed to the actual bows... meaning poisoned or barbed arrows. That was one of the main reasons the scythian horse archers were feared... not for the bows but their poisoned arrows. So youd have your normal bow but would switch the arrows depending on if you were hunting or fighting.

Armour piercing warbows are actually a lot rarer than youd think and usually come from the later medieval times when they were needed against full plate and such. We know from records that most archers in the ancient world were not capable of breaking heavy armour or a heavy sheild and there was many accounts of romans and such just been rained on with arrows, not really causing that many casualties but it had a great phycological and demoralizing affect, and could result in alot of disorder and chaos in the ranks.


So what im trying to say is yes absolutely heavy war bows (especially heavy war longbows) are not the best option for a women in combat.... at all. BUT a light-medium bow shooting poisoned or barbed arrows can still do damage against a not too heavily armed opponent... add to it the fact shes on a horse and can easily avoid getting into melee but just whizz about firing arrows at the enemy - either causing actual damage to them OR harassing them with arrows as you dont always need to be getting kills to be useful in battle.

and as for the ''masculine'' look then i agree and think a nomadic tribeswoman who uses even a light hunting bow... their body from a lifetime of nomadic living in harsh conditions aswell as horseback riding and shooting bows from childhood would look completely different than a ''civilized' city woman lol.


((( By the way completely off topic but I love your realistic battle mod - its a must have mod to me! If you have any suggestions for my mod to make it more 'realistic' then id love to hear :smile: )))
 

NicoleUK

Sergeant
I could, to make it a bit more realistic maybe, add some bows with lighter draw weights? That way they can still have a quality bow in the higher tiers but it will be weaker than the one the men are using...

Do you think this would be a good solution?
 
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prefrontal

Recruit
I dont want to be neatpicker but bow is probably worst weapon for women (it requires specific upper body muscle, department where males differentiate most from females), crossbow makes much more sense (because you can use goat lever, other body muscle etc).
I do want to nitpick some if that's ok :smile: I am not a historian so I can't really speak to any accuracy debates. I do know some about physiology of strength, though, and it always irks me how strength is mainly seen as a function of muscle mass which is extremely simplistic. Muscle mass is very relevant for maximal strength, yes. Other important factors include physiological cross sectional area, moment arms at the joints, neuronal factors such as fatigue or activation of inhibitory pathways and fiber recruitment, and most importantly skill. Strength is generally exercise specific with suprisingly little carry over to even similar exercises at top levels. The draw weights for even the strongest bows you listed are well within the physiological range attainable (for men and women) even without much gain in muscle mass. I'd imagine that, for men and women alike, in medieval times strength gain was mostly a function of factors other than gaining muscle mass because it is very hard to facilitate protein synthesis without regular caloric excess.

Within the scope of the mod I'd say a bow seems a reasonable choice because as a constitutionally weaker individual you'd want a weapon that gives you a reasonable chance for a kill/immobilisation of a target that you can increase with practice and where you still have the chance to run and hide from an opponent who will most likely beat you in melee. Sure same thing goes for crossbows (even more so) but they are a more complex piece of technology that also is harder to manufacture.
 
I could, to make it a bit more realistic maybe, add some bows with lighter draw weights? That way they can still have a quality bow in the higher tiers but it will be weaker than the one the men are using...

Do you think this would be a good solution?
Well its your mod fo whatever you want. One advantage of lower weight bows is faster firing speed (not necessarely in vanilla but in RBM), so maybe lower weight bow but heavy arrow (which will get bonus speed from horseback) but it would need some testing to find sweetspot between too little range and too little damage, obviously bow is ok if it is something like tier 3 unit, I meant more the kind of bows used by tier 4+.

And what did you meant by "I get what your saying but recurve bows they distribute the weight differently meaning you can pull a stronger weight on a recurve bow with less struggle."? Do you mean the different shape of power curve? Reflex bows migh be more "comfortable" however you need same total power to draw same draw weight fully, you just need to put more power in the last 10-20% of the draw while with selfbow its more continuous, but if muscle strength is a threshold, the maximum draw is equally limited.

Edit: light weight (agile) 2H polearms and 2H swords are probably best melee weapons for heavily armored noblewomen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onna-musha

Edit: now that I think about it hunter association recommends roughly 20 pounds less draw weight for women so you might go with that and counter it with higher polearm skill and glaive, or heavier arrows or something like that.
https://targetcrazy.com/archery/resources/find-draw-weight/
 
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NicoleUK

Sergeant
That is very interesting, I do use your mod so I will have a look at your suggestions... Maybe even remove the elite female units just so they are mainly levy and low tier fillers?

And speaking of 2h polearms.... If the Samurai mod comes out I will be adding Onna-Bugeisha to them armed with the naginata (based on the Jō****ai women's army, led by Takeko who fought at Aizu). But they were not heavily armoured they fought in their hakama, their only protection or defence been their naginata.
 

peblo

Recruit
The troops look GOOD! The only problem I have is with their names- some of them sound rough, like every "bowwoman" for example, but I guess you have to work with what you have. It also may be because these names are not used as often as their male counterparts, but what do I know. I'm not an expert :smile:
 

NicoleUK

Sergeant
well I didnt want them to have silly unrealistic names... so instead of a bowman they are a bowwoman... I thought that was the most logical and plausible name ? I considered archeresses but that seemed kinda... too fancy.
 

Spyware

Recruit
Excellent choices. Don't want to overwhelm your development plans(if you have any), but since Sword-Sisters are canon, you can give them or their ancestors to one of or all the "non-barbarian" factions. You could give some backstory to them as an ancient order of fighting Vlandian, Imperial or Aserai women whose organization just evolved in the continent during the times of Warband, or even maybe the Sword-Sisters are descended from groups of the three other factions.

Sword-Sisters in the Warband era have: heavy armor, fast horses, and sabres. Not to mention they also carry crossbows.

Seems like good reason to be descended from any or all of the three other groups since that equipment and fighting style can be attributed to the other factions ambiguously.
 
I could, to make it a bit more realistic maybe, add some bows with lighter draw weights? That way they can still have a quality bow in the higher tiers but it will be weaker than the one the men are using...

Do you think this would be a good solution?
I just read that Brie Larsen was deadlifting 225 pounds while training to be in Captain Marvel, and she's a relatively waifish 5'7". Female powerlifters are benching 250 pounds like it's nothing, and I've seen female cross fit athletes doing some pretty amazing stuff. Yes, the average man is bigger, faster, and stronger than the average woman, but as you move away from the middle of the bell curve you start finding above average women who are bigger, faster, and stronger than average men. Presumably those are the ones who would be running off to join the army.

There's no reason you can't have female warriors who are just as good as their male counterparts, provided you account for the fact that 6 foot tall, broad shouldered, hyper aggressive women are statistical outliers. They exist, just not in large numbers (relative to their male counterparts).
 
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